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Are You Worried by Fuchsia?
I was watching a youtube video by Bryan Lunduke. He has a series of video's about why linux sucks, and this year he spoke about Fuchsia OS. Fuchsia is going to replace a lot of uses for linux, everyone can see that. But isn't it a good thing? Should we run all jump ship ASAP?
- maverick74 5y agoThe problem is not Fuchsia itself. Fuchsia is actually well developed. It's the company behind it and what it pretends to do with it that worries me! I would prefer a combination of Genode+seL4. (but the lack the workers to move as fast as Google) Or even [some distro]+on top of Linux + on top of seL4. Google scares me ATM...
- raxxorrax 5y agoAs an embedded dev I think of using it, but it depends. If it comes with any forced Google stuff or telemetry, it is disqualified before it even made an impact. Talked to other devs and most never even heard of it. This world is always a bit slower and I doubt many will jump ship quickly. The IOT craze seems to lessen a bit in recent years, devices slowly loose their image as being interesting toys. I know that the industry likes to place themselves as an intermediary and later opens their hands. So it would really need to offer much...
- dgb23 5y ago> If it comes with any forced Google stuff or telemetry, it is disqualified before it even made an impact. Seems like the best strategy is to not do these kind of things until wide adoption. Microsoft, Apple and even some Linux distros did such things.
- joezydeco 5y agoAs an embedded dev I'll never trust Google to support it long enough to be relevant. I don't care how many Nest units use it. IoT isn't a craze, it's a buzzword. We've been building net-connected units for decades and will do so for decades more. We need a decent small flexible OS/RTOS that's beyond Linux. Zephyr has been a disappointment in this respect.
- rvz 5y agoYou know that the Linux kernel was used as a stop gap for creating Android? Google didn't want to be always tied directly to the Linux kernel and it's medieval development structure; hence the reason why Fuchsia was made. As much as I hate saying this but I'm so sorry but the reality is, Fuchsia is going to replace Android and ChromeOS and the Zircon kernel will probably be optimised to be used on Google's own Silicon; super-seeding the need for using Linux anyway. If you're already worried by Fuchsia, are you already afraid that Google will stop contributing to Linux? Possibly. But this only concerns Android and ChromeOS. Linux should be fine on the server. However, it's just that it has no path to the desktop commercially. > But isn't it a good thing? Should we run all jump ship ASAP? Change is very good. The obsession of the Unix philosophy and its clones had a great 50 year run; with Linux almost in its 40th anniversary. It's time to move onto modern and secure alternatives with a clean slate. Not another Unix clone or another Linux distro.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- kleer001 5y agofwiw > super-seeding supersede : To take the place of; replace or supplant. > Change is very good. Hmmm. Not always and not for everyone. Evolution is good, but not for the 99% of extinct species. Still, better adapted systems persist. The real danger is local maxima. Which is why predators are needed. Still, lots of infrastructure is based on outdated technology, generations behind the bleeding edge, for the very reason that it works predictably. And we want infrastructure to work for a long time.
- rvz 5y agoFuchsia/Zircon is and already can be made compatible via a virtualised Linux kernel running under Zircon. So your point is? Fuchsia is acting as a compatibility bridge to migrate over the fragmented Android arena you see before you onto a unified system that Google can push updates seamlessly just like it did recently; starting with the Nest Hub. It was invisible to the user and was updated without warning or fanfare. In this context, it is better to replace this 'outdated technology' than to keep fixing the existing system because it is riddled with hidden bugs and holes. Perhaps this cannot be solved with the Unix philosophy (or in its clones) as it is riddled with holes and legacy oddities. This is why technologies like Rust exist to eventually replace C/C++ and Fuchsia exists to eventually replace Android. Unix had a good run (and is not designed for security in mind). So it is time for a clean slate.
- mikewarot 5y agoWindows, MacOS, Linux are all dead men walking. They are all unfit for purpose in a world of persistent internet and mobile code. You can't ever fix them. Capability Based Security is about 50 years old. It was getting added to MULTICS when UNIX took off. Fuchsia, Genode and GNU Hurd are all based on it. None of them are ready for use yet. When you open an application, and pick a file to edit, the application is using a dialog box get your file choice. It then directly accesses the file. There is nothing enforcing your choice, we all just hope the program works as intended. When you do the same thing in a capability systems, the operating system is using its own dialog box to get your file choice. The operating system then enforces your choice, and gives a capability for only that one file to the application. Your application has zero permissions to access anything else. I hope I've made it clear why the rush to capability based systems is on. Bryan doesn't see the bigger picture, but he has quite valid points anyway. It's not just old code, it's the broken model underneath it. There is a race to get something usable to market. I hope something open-source wins.
- zxzax 5y agoThat's not strictly a good example. In Linux you can do that with mount namespaces, but the GUI around it is not there yet -- the capability system has to be implemented in user space, which I will say is definitely more difficult than just having a nice capability primitive built into the OS...
- wahern 5y agoCapsicum shows that the capability model can be practically implemented within Unix, ignoring bugs (i.e. ignoring monolithic vs microkernel consequences). But the poor uptake of Capsicum and the popularity of Docker also show how impractical it is for the current ecosystem of software, even though conceptually it should be a relatively easy shift. It's far easier to enforce and adopt in the context of smartphones and IoT, where APIs are already highly restricted. But these restrictions also reflect a substantially limited capacity to innovate--only the platform provider can innovate locally; everybody else has to treat the environment as a dumb terminal with accelerated graphics. Even the underlying capability frameworks are largely hidden; capabilities are an implementation detail of the exposed APIs from the perspective of the application--unless the application developer is also the platform developer like with Google and Chrome.
- mikewarot 5y agoHere's the video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtJ9T_IJOPE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtJ9T_IJOPE TLDR: Linux has had a good run, but change is coming.
- uncomputation 5y agoA bit confused here by the proposed/envisioned alternative. As others have pointed out, it’s extremely likely Fuschia will replace Linux-Android which has dominant market share in smartphones. Unless you’re proposing we get PinePhones, there’s really no way to jump ship.
- Engineering-MD 5y agoGiven it’s BSD/MIT/Apache license, couldn’t a GPL version of fuchsia be produced? Providing enough value is added to such a version to allow it to compete, could it allow for a more Linux/ungoogled variety of fuchsia to exist?
- d--b 5y agoLinux, Windows and MacOS aren't going anywhere. Things are working today. Not particularly well, but well enough not to engage in the massive undertaking it would be to move from one to another. So yes, Fuchsia is likely to take off, and some small companies will move to it, but don't expect any Fortune 500 company off windows/linux in the next 20 years...
- jopsen 5y agoDoes it even matter? Like aren't we moving to a world where the only application in your web browser? At-least that's how it's felt to me the past 15 years, I guess we're not quite there yet ;)
- giardini 5y agod--b says "don't expect any Fortune 500 company off windows/linux in the next 20 years..." Yeah, right after they've tossed z/OS. (turns back to his COBOL coding sheet...)