5 ms·

The article mentions a rape in an Airbnb in New York. The suspect had keys, presumably picked up from a lax key exchange in a nearby bodega. The cops were calle

by bko 5y ago

The article mentions a rape in an Airbnb in New York. The suspect had keys, presumably picked up from a lax key exchange in a nearby bodega. The cops were called and Airbnb was notified. Airbnb payed for a hotel, offered to fly the victim's mother out, paid for their return flight, and paid $7 million to the victim. The perp was caught by police shortly after the incident. Part of the payout was that she couldn't talk about the incident and potentially implicate Airbnb. The alternative would be no payment and immediately drag this out in court very publicly. If I were the victim I would definitely prefer the option above or at least prefer to have that as an option. These kinds of things are incredibly rare and I'm glad we didn't have a news-cycle obsessing over something like this.

dannyw 5y ago
The article mentions a RAPE at knife point, not a robbery. "By the time she realized she wasn’t alone, the blade of a kitchen knife was pointing down at her. The stranger grabbed her, shoved her onto a bed, and raped her. Drunken revelers were wandering the streets outside, but the woman was too scared to scream." There is a HUGE difference...
- bko 5y ago
  Sorry, I missed that. I'll edit my comment. The perpetrator was caught and presumably prosecuted. Again, what alternative chain of events would you have preferred?
  - okprod 5y ago
    That Airbnb take responsibility for its service offering end-to-end, in this case the key exchange. From the article it's obvious the company has no ethics and has tried to cover up shoddy/lax business practices from the beginning, so another alternative that could have helped is Airbnb being liable for damages in the millions/billions until they learn their lesson, or fold if they don't. Oh, it might also have been helpful to not wait two years to hear about this, but as we all know, those who use NDAs are always the best of people/organizations.
    - bko 5y ago
      The did take responsibility. That's what the money was for. Except it went to the victims rather than Attorney General and regulatory agencies. Do you feel the same moral indignation about crimes committed in hotels? Here are NYC stats from 2017: > In 2017, there were 2,656 hotel crimes reported city-wide, compared to 2,223 in 2015, a 19.5-percent increase... This includes felony assaults, which soared 51.9 percent, from 81 to 122, and third-degree assaults, which jumped 38 percent, from 255 to 352. How much should the hotel where the 2017 Las Vegas shootings be liable for? https://nypost.com/2018/06/04/crime-in-nyc-hotels-has-skyrocketed-in-recent-years/ https://nypost.com/2018/06/04/crime-in-nyc-hotels-has-skyroc...
      - okprod 5y ago
        Do you feel the same moral indignation about crimes committed in hotels? Yes. Sorry, I would share stats about Airbnb crimes with you but the company keeps most secret by paying people off. Second, if you want Airbnb compared to hotels, then the firm should be paying all applicable hotel/rental taxes and following all respective hotel regulations, but they don't because Airbnb markets itself as a "platform". A trivial issue is I don't know of a hotel in New York that would have the key exchange be at a bodega.
    - z0ltan 5y ago
      Welcome to the real world.
  - newsclues 5y ago
    Is it an option to go back in time and put the Airbnb genie back in the bottle before a tech company decided to get around hotel laws, disturb the housing market and profit while creating harms by failing basic security and safety?
  - dannyw 5y ago
    It's great that the perpetrator was caught, and I don't think there's anything more that Airbnb could have done in this specific instance. But the article then highlights more (separate) incidents where Airbnb potentially has more responsibility because it was the hosts themselves taking the actions, highlighting weaknesses in Airbnb's background check process: "Lapayowker’s lawyer, Teresa Li, says the suit was able to proceed, despite the arbitration requirements in Airbnb’s terms of service, because the company hadn’t done a thorough background check of the host. Airbnb only flags prior convictions, and though the host had previously been charged with battery, he wasn’t convicted." The article then goes on to explain that Airbnb had under-resourced their trust and safety teams. As part of the 2020 COVID layoffs, Airbnb also laid off their entire trust and safety team in Portland, Oregon. I don't want to quote more from the lengthy article, as it's not my piece, but it seems like Airbnb could be doing more to improve the safety of their platform; such as mandating keyless entry (which would have prevented many incidents, including the aforementioned rape in the lead of the article).
    - snypher 5y ago
      >Airbnb only flags prior convictions, and though the host had previously been charged with battery, he wasn’t convicted." Is the implication here people should be punished for pre-crime as well?
    - noobermin 5y ago
      Being charged with a crime but not convicted shouldn't be held against anyone, even if in this case they were to commit actual crime later. To do otherwise is an injustice.
      - staticman2 5y ago
        There's no reason it would have to be an injustice. The standards of proof for getting banned from Airbnb should be less than thrown in jail.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
mc32 5y ago
Whatever shortcuts ABB is taking, how are they responsible for a rapist? Let’s say i absentmindedly leave my door unlocked at home and someone comes in and raped me. Am I partially responsible for my own rape because I left the door unlocked? Why isn’t it 100% the fault of the rapist?
- lumost 5y ago
  Buying a transportation ticket or renting a room from a hotelier is a frightfully risky activity on its own. There have historically been limited reasons to trust either transporters or hoteliers as you'd only interact with them once and you may never have come into contact with someone who used their services. Hence there is a "duty to guests" in most hospitality law. That requires that the proprietor maintain a property reasonably free of forseeable risk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitality_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitality_law
  - mc32 5y ago
    Thank you for bringing this to light. That explains it well. It certainly indicts ABB for not meeting their obligations here.
tyingq 5y ago
"and paid $7 million to the victim." I am assuming after the victim decided to file a lawsuit. I would be surprised if that was a preemptive offer.
CJefferson 5y ago
How do we know they are incredibly rare? AirBnB is trying to silence everyone this happens to.
- jdminhbg 5y ago
  At $7M a pop, they’d show up in their operating expenses pretty quickly if they were common.
thesausageking 5y ago
Why do you think they're rare? As the article mentions, they only paid $7m in this case because the victim wasn't the one who rented the apartment (and therefore aren't bound by Airbnb's ToS) and we're only learning about it because a journalist went digging into court records. > Anyone registering on the site is required to sign this agreement, which bars legal claims for injury or stress arising from a stay and requires confidential arbitration in the event of a dispute. Former safety agents estimate the company handles thousands of allegations of sexual assault every year, many involving rape.

by bko 5y ago

dannyw 5y ago

The article mentions a RAPE at knife point, not a robbery. "By the time she realized she wasn’t alone, the blade of a kitchen knife was pointing down at her. The stranger grabbed her, shoved her onto a bed, and raped her. Drunken revelers were wandering the streets outside, but the woman was too scared to scream." There is a HUGE difference...

bko 5y ago
Sorry, I missed that. I'll edit my comment. The perpetrator was caught and presumably prosecuted. Again, what alternative chain of events would you have preferred?
- okprod 5y ago
  That Airbnb take responsibility for its service offering end-to-end, in this case the key exchange. From the article it's obvious the company has no ethics and has tried to cover up shoddy/lax business practices from the beginning, so another alternative that could have helped is Airbnb being liable for damages in the millions/billions until they learn their lesson, or fold if they don't. Oh, it might also have been helpful to not wait two years to hear about this, but as we all know, those who use NDAs are always the best of people/organizations.
  - bko 5y ago
    The did take responsibility. That's what the money was for. Except it went to the victims rather than Attorney General and regulatory agencies. Do you feel the same moral indignation about crimes committed in hotels? Here are NYC stats from 2017: > In 2017, there were 2,656 hotel crimes reported city-wide, compared to 2,223 in 2015, a 19.5-percent increase... This includes felony assaults, which soared 51.9 percent, from 81 to 122, and third-degree assaults, which jumped 38 percent, from 255 to 352. How much should the hotel where the 2017 Las Vegas shootings be liable for? https://nypost.com/2018/06/04/crime-in-nyc-hotels-has-skyrocketed-in-recent-years/ https://nypost.com/2018/06/04/crime-in-nyc-hotels-has-skyroc...
    - okprod 5y ago
      Do you feel the same moral indignation about crimes committed in hotels? Yes. Sorry, I would share stats about Airbnb crimes with you but the company keeps most secret by paying people off. Second, if you want Airbnb compared to hotels, then the firm should be paying all applicable hotel/rental taxes and following all respective hotel regulations, but they don't because Airbnb markets itself as a "platform". A trivial issue is I don't know of a hotel in New York that would have the key exchange be at a bodega.
  - z0ltan 5y ago
    Welcome to the real world.
- newsclues 5y ago
  Is it an option to go back in time and put the Airbnb genie back in the bottle before a tech company decided to get around hotel laws, disturb the housing market and profit while creating harms by failing basic security and safety?
- dannyw 5y ago
  It's great that the perpetrator was caught, and I don't think there's anything more that Airbnb could have done in this specific instance. But the article then highlights more (separate) incidents where Airbnb potentially has more responsibility because it was the hosts themselves taking the actions, highlighting weaknesses in Airbnb's background check process: "Lapayowker’s lawyer, Teresa Li, says the suit was able to proceed, despite the arbitration requirements in Airbnb’s terms of service, because the company hadn’t done a thorough background check of the host. Airbnb only flags prior convictions, and though the host had previously been charged with battery, he wasn’t convicted." The article then goes on to explain that Airbnb had under-resourced their trust and safety teams. As part of the 2020 COVID layoffs, Airbnb also laid off their entire trust and safety team in Portland, Oregon. I don't want to quote more from the lengthy article, as it's not my piece, but it seems like Airbnb could be doing more to improve the safety of their platform; such as mandating keyless entry (which would have prevented many incidents, including the aforementioned rape in the lead of the article).
  - snypher 5y ago
    >Airbnb only flags prior convictions, and though the host had previously been charged with battery, he wasn’t convicted." Is the implication here people should be punished for pre-crime as well?
  - noobermin 5y ago
    Being charged with a crime but not convicted shouldn't be held against anyone, even if in this case they were to commit actual crime later. To do otherwise is an injustice.
    - staticman2 5y ago
      There's no reason it would have to be an injustice. The standards of proof for getting banned from Airbnb should be less than thrown in jail.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]

mc32 5y ago

Whatever shortcuts ABB is taking, how are they responsible for a rapist? Let’s say i absentmindedly leave my door unlocked at home and someone comes in and raped me. Am I partially responsible for my own rape because I left the door unlocked? Why isn’t it 100% the fault of the rapist?

lumost 5y ago
Buying a transportation ticket or renting a room from a hotelier is a frightfully risky activity on its own. There have historically been limited reasons to trust either transporters or hoteliers as you'd only interact with them once and you may never have come into contact with someone who used their services. Hence there is a "duty to guests" in most hospitality law. That requires that the proprietor maintain a property reasonably free of forseeable risk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitality_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospitality_law
- mc32 5y ago
  Thank you for bringing this to light. That explains it well. It certainly indicts ABB for not meeting their obligations here.

tyingq 5y ago

"and paid $7 million to the victim." I am assuming after the victim decided to file a lawsuit. I would be surprised if that was a preemptive offer.

CJefferson 5y ago

How do we know they are incredibly rare? AirBnB is trying to silence everyone this happens to.

jdminhbg 5y ago
At $7M a pop, they’d show up in their operating expenses pretty quickly if they were common.

thesausageking 5y ago

Why do you think they're rare? As the article mentions, they only paid $7m in this case because the victim wasn't the one who rented the apartment (and therefore aren't bound by Airbnb's ToS) and we're only learning about it because a journalist went digging into court records. > Anyone registering on the site is required to sign this agreement, which bars legal claims for injury or stress arising from a stay and requires confidential arbitration in the event of a dispute. Former safety agents estimate the company handles thousands of allegations of sexual assault every year, many involving rape.