11 ms·

> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people.

• eldaisfish 5y ago
  GP's phrasing is wrong but there is a point there - it is much easier to achieve success and then regulate and distribute its benefits than to go the other way round. I am not a fan of unbridled capitalism a la the USA and fully agree that more countries should strive to reach European levels of worker and civil rights... however, there is validity to the statement that Europe is currently coasting along on the spoils of centuries of loot and plunder. A lavish, comfortable lifestyle was handed to the citizens of western europe and many of their older firms have struggled to innovate as technology has spread across the globe. There is a good reason why a fast moving industry like tech has taken root in the US while Europe as a whole is playing catch up. The US will solve its problems, i have full faith in that country's ability to rise to the challenge as they have done numerous times in the past. Europe's problems with tech innovation run deep and go beyond simply vacation days and worker rights. Look no further than the current spree of tech regulation. I wish more countries did that but there is a fundamental problem - the EU is trying to legislate without having a good alternative. My prediction - If the US resolves its immigration system and allows more talent to flow in without having to worry about a visa, European skilled immigration is toast.
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  • thiago_fm 5y ago
    People will take my phrasing to their preferred way, I was aware of it when I wrote it. It's the internet. I'd need to be a great philosopher and writer, to write a boring book with the same opinion that wouldn't hurt them. Unfortunately, I am none of those two. Those who want to take it in the wrong way will and I'm ok with that.
  • sime2009 5y ago
    > however, there is validity to the statement that Europe is currently coasting along on the spoils of centuries of loot and plunder. oh boy. Time for you to crack the spine of a history book covering the 20th century, me thinks.
  • pjc50 5y ago
    > Europe is currently coasting along on the spoils of centuries of loot and plunder. A lavish, comfortable lifestyle was handed to the citizens of western europe Well, apart from the whole WW2 business. This is the trouble with generalisations across the continent, the closer you look the less well they fit. And if you look across a continent and back in time, the situation varies even further. Germany used to be "the sick man of Europe": https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.28.1.167 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/jep.28.1.167 The overhang of colonial benefit is present in Britain; I'm not really sure about France (the disasters of trying to hold on to Vietnam and Algeria?). It's not present in Germany or Italy which had it taken off them. It may well be an issue to Portugal and Spain, which were dictatorships well after the war.
    • hef19898 5y ago
      I was at university, back when Germany was the sick man. And I was truely worried about getting a job. Well, things turned out very differently.
    • sime2009 5y ago
      > Well, apart from the whole WW2 business. Let's be clear. By the time the last bullet was fired in WW2, Europe was basically destroyed, rumble, from the North Sea cross to Moscow. Brittan, although not occupied, was also hopelessly broke after the war. This weakness in Europe was one of the prime reasons why the colonies could break away from their European overlords. Europe was in no condition to do much about it either. They had more important things to worry about like food, and hoping that the Americans would come through with their Marshall Plan. That's just counting the western half of Europe which wasn't under new (communist) management. The loot and plunder was truly gone.
      • kazen44 5y ago
        people from the US seem to underesti
      • kazen44 5y ago
        the destruction of world war two was absolutely insane, especially on the eastern front. for instance: Belarus lost a quarter of it's population many villages and cities where utterly destroyed. also, don't forget world war 1 (and the other conflicts sparked after, like Russian civil war, breakup of Austria Hungary, Greco Turkish war etc) was only 25 years prior..
• qsort 5y ago
  Not going to comment on anything else since "flexible working laws" and "less relaxing lifestyle" can mean anything, but "light a fire under their ass until they are forced to innovate" is unironically and unapologetically good. If there's one thing that consistently fosters innovation and progress it's competition. That's something that holds true everywhere. Software, industry, education, games, sports, you name it.
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  • jk3921 5y ago
    Its weird really. Europeans do pretty well in sports so its not like they lack drive. Speaking having just watched Djokovic, Nadal et al battling it out.
    • kaba0 5y ago
      It’s just blatant overgeneralization by grandparent comment. You can’t really describe a whole continent like that, especially on a very variable human attribute like drivenness.
  • whimsicalism 5y ago
    Easy to advocate this when you are not the one that goes hungry or homeless if you lose a job
  • dgb23 5y ago
    The most impactful and important innovations typically come from people who are intrinsically motivated. Also, competition skews innovation towards solving problems that arrive from competition. You might just be hiring lawyers to bully a competitor instead of fostering sustainable progress. Or if your market is unregulated you can decide to use more severe methods.
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• BlargMcLarg 5y ago
  As another European, I'd rather say the problem is in execution. On the flip side, having too much importance on a permanent contract creates incentives for other overheated markets to require a permanent contract before being able to continue the transaction (under the guise of "risk reduction"). See renting in the Netherlands. Additionally, employers have absolutely no qualms using this status to their advantage anyway. It just means playing the market a little differently, like making a 2 month leave notice mandatory. This doesn't consider the fact many people in markets much worse for employees than IT, these employees end up in situations where they cycle between companies since none of them will give a permanent contract anyway, or these companies try their worst to circumvent the law. Ultimately, it still comes down to execution, laws, the state of a market and personal preferences. Both forms can be toxic.
• krelian 5y ago
  >As a European, I can only hope that our culture doesn't degrade itself to that degree. The question is whether Europe will be able to maintain its wealth - which is the main thing that makes possible the luxury of having a more relaxed lifestyle - in the long term while falling behind economically. Most of Europe's wealth is based around old world economy.
  • hef19898 5y ago
    We already see a wealth gap between the North and South and the West and East. Also between the old and young. Not sure what that means for the future. Europes wealth is based, to a large extent, on hardware and a huge number of wealthy citizens. As long as hardware is a thing (not talking electronics but stuff like cars and so on), and we manage to not cut of the poorer 20-30% of society, Europe should do fine.
    • arp242 5y ago
      > We already see a wealth gap between the North and South and the West and East. This has always existed; or at least has in modern history. It's hardly a new development, although the EU and Euro has brought this more to the forefront. These kind of things ebb and flow anyway; if you look at the last few hundred years then concentrations of wealth have shifted all over the place. Some locations have gone from very wealthy to very poor and back to very wealthy again.
    • nudgeee 5y ago
      Even in the electronics space EU has some big players — NXP, ST, Infineon, Bosch, Philips, ASML, Orsam, etc.
      • m_mueller 5y ago
        I think in general the European model works well for midsize, highly specialized hardware companies, mostly doing B2B. From what I can see, European companies are competitive in that space still, and it's not such a bad niche to be in. It's this middle ground between commodities and one-off custom products.
• throwaway894345 5y ago
  > The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" I get the distinct impression that people who liken the US to a third world country are from one particular spot on the political spectrum. This seems like political rhetoric, not a summary of some level-headed analysis. Inequality, crime, etc in the US are certainly problems, but that seems like a low bar for the "third world country" label (with or without the 'gucci belt' modifier). At best it's unhelpful, but I think it's probably just inaccurate considering how many people from actual second and third world countries are risking their very lives to get in, not to mention divisive.
  • selfhoster11 5y ago
    America's problems are numerous and have been discussed elsewhere at length. Suffice to say that sometime between 9/11 and the 2008 financial crisis, America has not been keeping up with other economies in terms of what makes a first world country worth living in. Biden may change that, or he may not. In any case, America has a lot of catching up to do if they want to overtake Europe (and some other places) in anything besides profit.
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    • hardolaf 5y ago
      Poverty has been increasing rapidly here in the states and people just keep ignoring it. My employer isn't, we're gearing up to make tons of money on the next crash.
    • throwaway894345 5y ago
      > America's problems are numerous and have been discussed elsewhere at length. Suffice to say that sometime between 9/11 and the 2008 financial crisis, America has not been keeping up with other economies in terms of what makes a first world country worth living in. Maybe. Or maybe the media is just peddling negativity such that we are overexposed. I moved to Europe a decade ago and have since returned, and plan to go back occasionally. When I went, I definitely had the impression that Europeans had it together and that Europe was some kind of liberal Utopia. And it was neat and European countries have political ideas worth borrowing, but it turns out that Europeans are also just people with their own distinct problems. They aren't more enlightened as American liberal media would have you believe. Europe has some really cool cultures, but they aren't "better" than American culture(s). IMO what Europe does have that America lacks is a deep, vibrant history (pre-Columbian American history is relatively impoverished for a variety of reasons).
• wyager 5y ago
  > a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% The median American is much richer than the median European.
  • selfhoster11 5y ago
    While also spending more money on various things, or having to spend them on privatised health care etc. It's not directly comparable. My point also discussed things like infrastructure and public services, which are often very neglected compared to their European counterparts.
    • odiroot 5y ago
      Maybe if you only take San Francisco and New York City in consideration. USA has famously cheaper life than EU (especially gas and food). Not that I would trade places.
      • kazen44 5y ago
        mind you gas prices are heavily subsidized in the US. The same goes for food. Also, from experience i have found vegetables to be ludicrously expensive in the USA, the same goes for beer and wine.
        • wyager 5y ago
          How are gas prices heavily subsidized in the US? They are certainly heavily taxed...
    • hardolaf 5y ago
      Yeah, that statement made zero sense by the other person. Sure, on paper, us Americans at the median have more money. But after you pay for a single visit to the ER or urgent care, or after you have a kid, or any expenses, Western Europeans are far better off. I know, I've been near that income level before. It's not a fun experience over here. That said, now that I've moved into a job that pays at least $225K per year, you know, life in the USA is amazing for me. And everything everywhere else in the world is so cheap! Why can't my fellow country men just pull themselves up their bootstraps and get a high income earner job? It's so easy! You just go to the job tree and get one /s. But more seriously, we need to completely restructure our society in the USA before the poor and middle class violently rise up against the government and make us into what Mexico was 120 years ago.
• jollybean 5y ago
  Median wages in the US are still much higher than in Europe and it's always been 'bad' to be at the 'bottom' in the US. It's been that way for 150 years at least (read the stories of relatively well paid American GI's in UK WW2), no signs of changing just yet. I wonder if it's a culture problem or a scale problem or both.