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> I would be shocked if 60+% of American film characters are identifiably Christian How often do you see Christmas used as a plot device? Or a church used as a

> I would be shocked if 60+% of American film characters are identifiably Christian How often do you see Christmas used as a plot device? Or a church used as a setting? Or a priest character? I would be shocked if context didn't imply that > 95% of American film characters are Christian.

elefanten 5y ago
Christmas doesn’t signify religion in America. And I can’t remember the last time I saw church in a movie that wasn’t a comedy using the setting for a set-up
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  > Christmas doesn’t signify religion in America Yes it does...
  - cm2012 5y ago
    I grew up going to a school maybe 20% practicing Christian. Everyone celebrated christmas, got and gave gifts, had family dinners around then, etc.
    - renewiltord 5y ago
      Yeah, dude, that’s what it means to have a defacto state religion: it becomes the default thing. A classic characteristic of state religions is that even those who do not believe will institutionally practise. So, for instance, even Buddhists in Jordan must not eat in public during Ramadan. Considering everything I was told about America, I was surprised to see that it is a Christian nation (I expected it to not be because of nominal separation of church and state). Instead, many laws are based on Christianity, leaders invoke the Christian god for justification for actions, and the state has official holidays for Christian events. Modeling America as a Christian nation led to a more accurate prediction of reality. This has led to less surprise on my part than most to see that local governments were amenable to bending to Christianity a lot more than others. SF has recently made specific parking laws for churches that close the streets. No such policy exists for synagogues, in comparison. Some were surprised. But I wasn’t. I expect governments at all levels in America to act to privilege Christianity. After all, in action, America is a Christian nation. In practice, it is indistinguishable from the UK which has a de-jure (and de-facto) state religion.
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        > the state has official holidays for Christian events. If that alarms you, definitely do not go to Europe! That America has some unimportant vestiges of Christianity doesn't make it "a Christian nation" for any useful purposes. Yes, Trump did a bit of pandering to Christians which fooled precisely no one, but in any matter of substance America is resolvedly secular. If you want an accurate and useful model, think of secularism as the religion of the elite minority and the law of the land while Christianity is simply the most popular plebeian religion. Yes, in rare occasions members of the elite need support from the lower classes and will pay some vapid lip service to Christianity (consider Trump's comical appeal to Christians: "the Bible is the best book ever, probably even better than the Art of The Deal"), but beyond that secularism is absolutely the law of the land legally and culturally.
        renewiltord 5y ago
        I lived in Europe in de-jure religious nations. The fact that you find these comparable is exactly my point. For other readers, you can model America as parent comment or you can model America as I have described it. I think you will get more accurate predictions from my model but if you don’t believe that, ask other outsiders who have moved to America (and made it their home, as I have). Or come here yourself. Unfortunately, American identity is tied up in these things. The so-called separation of church and state is held up on as much of a pedestal as “freedom” with predictable effects: evidence contra these principles is ignored or considered a threat. But come here and see for yourself.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        > I lived in Europe in de-jure religious nations. The fact that you find these comparable is exactly my point. You're extrapolating an awful lot from a joke, but in any case if Europe fails your test for secularism then what countries are more secular? China? > The so-called separation of church and state is held up on as much of a pedestal as “freedom” with predictable effects: evidence contra these principles is ignored or considered a threat. The principle of separation of church and state is the foundation for American secularism. It's strange to me that you're appealing to it as evidence that America is particularly religious. Do you reserve "secularism" only for polities that forbid religious practice?
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      If by practicing, you mean "going to church weekly" then sure, but that is not the necessary condition for christmas to be a religious thing. It is extremely common in religions to have a large majority of people only doing the most visible festivals, not the daily/weekly things, that doesn't mean that the festivals are no longer religious.
      - cm2012 5y ago
        Probably 70% of the student body was hindu, muslim, or jewish. But they still participated as an american cultural thing, they just didn't do anything church related with it.
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        Interesting. Where exactly was this? I grew up in a major Jewish population center in the United States, most jews did not celebrate christmas outside of the ceremonial going out for chinese food. Muslim students also did not celebrate xmas. This is an urban center on the east coast.
        rootusrootus 5y ago
        > ceremonial going out for chinese food Wait, what, this is a thing? I'd never heard of that. Like, only the Jews would do it? Or more generally it's common for everyone to go out for Chinese food on Christmas? That has to be regional, if it's true. Kinda funny either way.
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        Oh yes, it is definitely a thing - and really only a jewish thing that I know of. I grew up in the mid-atlantic, but it is definitely also a thing in NYC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_American_Chinese_restaurant_patronage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_American_Chinese_restau...
        5y ago
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    Eh, not really. Christmas may have been a product of Christianity (hijacking a pagan holiday...), but it has long since become just a western culture tradition with no particular religious significance for a lot of people. Most Christmas movies don't even mention Christ.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      > it has long since become just a western culture tradition with no particular religious significance for a lot of people I think that people have a tendency to underestimate the degree of Christian influence on their way of life, and the vast majority of people who practice xmas are Christian, even if they are not weekly church attendees. I was raised in an atheist household, we definitely viewed Christmas as a religious thing. Most of the songs are very religious, people go to mass, etc.
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        > I think that people have a tendency to underestimate the degree of Christian influence on their way of life, One is not a Christian because Christianity influenced their culture. > and the vast majority of people who practice xmas are Christian The vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian. Does that make "humanity" a Christian institution?
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        > The vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian. Does that make "humanity" a Christian institution? The point is that Christianity has become so normalized to you that you don't recognize Christian celebration as religious. The fact that you incorrectly think that the "vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian" proves my point.
        AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
        > The point is that Christianity has become so normalized to you that you don't recognize Christian celebration as religious. So? Doesn't that just serve to lessen its overall religiousness? I mean, Christmas's traditions are themselves derived from pagan solstice celebrations. Wouldn't that make it a pagan institution by your reasoning? Much like how Christians adopted pre-existing traditions and slapped a Jesus-shaped label on them, people are now slapping a secularity (or, I would argue, consumerist) label on to Christmas traditions.
  - JAlexoid 5y ago
    It does, as much as talking about Sunday as a day off denotes Christianity. Did you know that Sunday is a day off in China as well?
- apocolyps6 5y ago
  Do your Muslim friends celebrate Christmas? Do your Jewish friends? Most non-religious americans are something like Christian Atheists. They don't believe in a god, but their worldview, ethics, and cultural norms are still originating in Christianity.
  - wutbrodo 5y ago
    My parents are non-Christian immigrants to the US and we celebrated Christmas every year growing up. Have you really not seen this? Especially in the cosmopolitan urban environments that Christmas movie settings skew towards?
  - bcrosby95 5y ago
    About half of my Jewish friends celebrate Christmas. And my one Muslim friend (that immigrated from a Muslim majority country) celebrates it too. He also has gotten into the habit of saying "god bless" because I guess they say that a lot in Georgia?
    - totalZero 5y ago
      I mean, Muslims believe in God too.
      - bobthechef 5y ago
        Yes, but they don't celebrate Christmas. Anyway, Americanized Muslims tend to be quite "moderate", that is, they are either apostates or firmly on the path to becoming apostates. I don't know if this follows from selective immigration or from social pressure to assimilate into the liberal civic religion, but it is so. So it's not surprising that they would embrace the secularized counterfeit that many Americans already celebrate, just as they probably end up watching the high feast known as the Superbowl and joining into the national prostration before the Almighty Game.
  - mc32 5y ago
    Chinese, Japanese and Vietnamese I know do have a Xmas, most of whom are not Christian. And if I know someone celebrate Chanukah I’ll say happy Chanukah. Is that wrong?
- edoceo 5y ago
  Boondock Saints. Has church, not comedy.
- nomdep 5y ago
  Daredevil (a Netflix series)
- cwkoss 5y ago
  American Christmas is a capitalist holiday with christian roots. Christian Christmas is a christian holiday with pagan roots.
TinkersW 5y ago
Christmas isn't Christian
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  Actually, I would flip this and say that going to church weekly is not a necessary condition for being within Christian sphere of influence. Xmas is most certainly Christian.
  - asguy 5y ago
    > Xmas is most certainly Christian. ... didn’t Xmas start being used exactly for that reason, i.e. to separate the event from religion. I didn’t grow up believing in Jesus, but I definitely believed in Santa Claus.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > didn’t Xmas start being used exactly for that reason, i.e. to separate the event from religion. No, its a Christian abvreviation originating from the ancient use of the greek Chi (visually identical to Latin X), sometimes along with Rho (Latin P) — the first two letters of Christ in Greek — as an abbreviation for Christ. Itsl dates back to, IIRC, the 16th C with similar forms back to the medieval period. Its been railed about as originating in a modern attempt to de-Christianize (or even explicitly paganize) Christmas more recently, but that is completely ahistorical.
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        Whatever its origins, I have the distinct impression that, in addition to being a shorthand, it is used commonly to disambiguate Secular Christmas from Christian Christmas. I agree that Fox News blows this out of proportion and isn't correct on minutia about its origins, but that doesn't mean it isn't commonly used to distinguish between secular and religious variants which is IMHO the more substantial point.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
throwaway894345 5y ago
Christmas and church settings don't indicate Christianity. Most secular Americans celebrate Christmas or attend weddings and funerals in Christian churches or officiated by Christian clergy. Indeed, for a very long time it was the norm to have one's own funeral or wedding at a church, officiated by Christian clergy, even if one was atheist or agnostic and even today it's quite common.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  Guilty as charged. I'm an atheist (well, I'm ignostic, which is similar but I consider the distinction important), my wife is agnostic, but we had our wedding in a church officiated by a Christian minister. Why? Because my wife liked the venue, we both wanted a traditional ceremony, and we thought it would be a better fit with our families, many of whom are devout Christians.
- mc32 5y ago
  To emphasize this, some Japanese have “church weddings”... sometimes with a fake minister... except they are not, in the great majority of cases, Christian, or even religious at all. The just like a ceremony. It’s kind of exotic, I guess. Fortunately the Japanese don’t feel like they are othering, or appropriating or anything like that. They just want to enjoy something, something different.
- sandyarmstrong 5y ago
  Ask people of a non-Christian faith if they agree. All the replies here saying Christmas isn't Christian seem to be from people with a Christian upbringing, even if they are atheist or "secular".
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    We’re not debating whether or not everyone of every faith celebrates secular Christmas, but whether or not celebrating secular Christmas is sufficient to identify a character as Christian. By your own admission (“All the replies here saying Christmas isn't Christian seem to be from people with a Christian upbringing, even if they are atheist or secular”), it is not sufficient. Even if no one of a non-Christian background celebrated secular Christmas, “celebrating secular Christmas” still wouldn’t suffice to identify someone as Christian, but rather as either Christian or “from a Christian background”. And of course lots of people from Jewish, Hindu, secular etc backgrounds also celebrate secular Christmas, as many have attested in this thread.
whoooooo123 5y ago
> How often do you see Christmas used as a plot device? Or a church used as a setting? Or a priest character? Far less than 60% of the time. And you can celebrate Christmas without being a Christian.
bart_spoon 5y ago
Certainly not in 60+% of films. And since when is Christmas only celebrated by Christians in the West? It became fully commercialized and secularized decades ago. Its even a major holiday in Japan these days, where less than 1% of the population is Christian.
dang 5y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27503656 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27503656.

elefanten 5y ago

Christmas doesn’t signify religion in America. And I can’t remember the last time I saw church in a movie that wasn’t a comedy using the setting for a set-up

whimsicalism 5y ago
> Christmas doesn’t signify religion in America Yes it does...
- cm2012 5y ago
  I grew up going to a school maybe 20% practicing Christian. Everyone celebrated christmas, got and gave gifts, had family dinners around then, etc.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    Yeah, dude, that’s what it means to have a defacto state religion: it becomes the default thing. A classic characteristic of state religions is that even those who do not believe will institutionally practise. So, for instance, even Buddhists in Jordan must not eat in public during Ramadan. Considering everything I was told about America, I was surprised to see that it is a Christian nation (I expected it to not be because of nominal separation of church and state). Instead, many laws are based on Christianity, leaders invoke the Christian god for justification for actions, and the state has official holidays for Christian events. Modeling America as a Christian nation led to a more accurate prediction of reality. This has led to less surprise on my part than most to see that local governments were amenable to bending to Christianity a lot more than others. SF has recently made specific parking laws for churches that close the streets. No such policy exists for synagogues, in comparison. Some were surprised. But I wasn’t. I expect governments at all levels in America to act to privilege Christianity. After all, in action, America is a Christian nation. In practice, it is indistinguishable from the UK which has a de-jure (and de-facto) state religion.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      > the state has official holidays for Christian events. If that alarms you, definitely do not go to Europe! That America has some unimportant vestiges of Christianity doesn't make it "a Christian nation" for any useful purposes. Yes, Trump did a bit of pandering to Christians which fooled precisely no one, but in any matter of substance America is resolvedly secular. If you want an accurate and useful model, think of secularism as the religion of the elite minority and the law of the land while Christianity is simply the most popular plebeian religion. Yes, in rare occasions members of the elite need support from the lower classes and will pay some vapid lip service to Christianity (consider Trump's comical appeal to Christians: "the Bible is the best book ever, probably even better than the Art of The Deal"), but beyond that secularism is absolutely the law of the land legally and culturally.
      - renewiltord 5y ago
        I lived in Europe in de-jure religious nations. The fact that you find these comparable is exactly my point. For other readers, you can model America as parent comment or you can model America as I have described it. I think you will get more accurate predictions from my model but if you don’t believe that, ask other outsiders who have moved to America (and made it their home, as I have). Or come here yourself. Unfortunately, American identity is tied up in these things. The so-called separation of church and state is held up on as much of a pedestal as “freedom” with predictable effects: evidence contra these principles is ignored or considered a threat. But come here and see for yourself.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        > I lived in Europe in de-jure religious nations. The fact that you find these comparable is exactly my point. You're extrapolating an awful lot from a joke, but in any case if Europe fails your test for secularism then what countries are more secular? China? > The so-called separation of church and state is held up on as much of a pedestal as “freedom” with predictable effects: evidence contra these principles is ignored or considered a threat. The principle of separation of church and state is the foundation for American secularism. It's strange to me that you're appealing to it as evidence that America is particularly religious. Do you reserve "secularism" only for polities that forbid religious practice?
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    If by practicing, you mean "going to church weekly" then sure, but that is not the necessary condition for christmas to be a religious thing. It is extremely common in religions to have a large majority of people only doing the most visible festivals, not the daily/weekly things, that doesn't mean that the festivals are no longer religious.
    - cm2012 5y ago
      Probably 70% of the student body was hindu, muslim, or jewish. But they still participated as an american cultural thing, they just didn't do anything church related with it.
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        Interesting. Where exactly was this? I grew up in a major Jewish population center in the United States, most jews did not celebrate christmas outside of the ceremonial going out for chinese food. Muslim students also did not celebrate xmas. This is an urban center on the east coast.
        rootusrootus 5y ago
        > ceremonial going out for chinese food Wait, what, this is a thing? I'd never heard of that. Like, only the Jews would do it? Or more generally it's common for everyone to go out for Chinese food on Christmas? That has to be regional, if it's true. Kinda funny either way.
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        Oh yes, it is definitely a thing - and really only a jewish thing that I know of. I grew up in the mid-atlantic, but it is definitely also a thing in NYC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_American_Chinese_restaurant_patronage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_American_Chinese_restau...
        5y ago
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  Eh, not really. Christmas may have been a product of Christianity (hijacking a pagan holiday...), but it has long since become just a western culture tradition with no particular religious significance for a lot of people. Most Christmas movies don't even mention Christ.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    > it has long since become just a western culture tradition with no particular religious significance for a lot of people I think that people have a tendency to underestimate the degree of Christian influence on their way of life, and the vast majority of people who practice xmas are Christian, even if they are not weekly church attendees. I was raised in an atheist household, we definitely viewed Christmas as a religious thing. Most of the songs are very religious, people go to mass, etc.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      > I think that people have a tendency to underestimate the degree of Christian influence on their way of life, One is not a Christian because Christianity influenced their culture. > and the vast majority of people who practice xmas are Christian The vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian. Does that make "humanity" a Christian institution?
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        > The vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian. Does that make "humanity" a Christian institution? The point is that Christianity has become so normalized to you that you don't recognize Christian celebration as religious. The fact that you incorrectly think that the "vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian" proves my point.
        AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
        > The point is that Christianity has become so normalized to you that you don't recognize Christian celebration as religious. So? Doesn't that just serve to lessen its overall religiousness? I mean, Christmas's traditions are themselves derived from pagan solstice celebrations. Wouldn't that make it a pagan institution by your reasoning? Much like how Christians adopted pre-existing traditions and slapped a Jesus-shaped label on them, people are now slapping a secularity (or, I would argue, consumerist) label on to Christmas traditions.
- JAlexoid 5y ago
  It does, as much as talking about Sunday as a day off denotes Christianity. Did you know that Sunday is a day off in China as well?
apocolyps6 5y ago
Do your Muslim friends celebrate Christmas? Do your Jewish friends? Most non-religious americans are something like Christian Atheists. They don't believe in a god, but their worldview, ethics, and cultural norms are still originating in Christianity.
- wutbrodo 5y ago
  My parents are non-Christian immigrants to the US and we celebrated Christmas every year growing up. Have you really not seen this? Especially in the cosmopolitan urban environments that Christmas movie settings skew towards?
- bcrosby95 5y ago
  About half of my Jewish friends celebrate Christmas. And my one Muslim friend (that immigrated from a Muslim majority country) celebrates it too. He also has gotten into the habit of saying "god bless" because I guess they say that a lot in Georgia?
  - totalZero 5y ago
    I mean, Muslims believe in God too.
    - bobthechef 5y ago
      Yes, but they don't celebrate Christmas. Anyway, Americanized Muslims tend to be quite "moderate", that is, they are either apostates or firmly on the path to becoming apostates. I don't know if this follows from selective immigration or from social pressure to assimilate into the liberal civic religion, but it is so. So it's not surprising that they would embrace the secularized counterfeit that many Americans already celebrate, just as they probably end up watching the high feast known as the Superbowl and joining into the national prostration before the Almighty Game.
- mc32 5y ago
  Chinese, Japanese and Vietnamese I know do have a Xmas, most of whom are not Christian. And if I know someone celebrate Chanukah I’ll say happy Chanukah. Is that wrong?
edoceo 5y ago
Boondock Saints. Has church, not comedy.
nomdep 5y ago
Daredevil (a Netflix series)
cwkoss 5y ago
American Christmas is a capitalist holiday with christian roots. Christian Christmas is a christian holiday with pagan roots.

TinkersW 5y ago

Christmas isn't Christian

whimsicalism 5y ago
Actually, I would flip this and say that going to church weekly is not a necessary condition for being within Christian sphere of influence. Xmas is most certainly Christian.
- asguy 5y ago
  > Xmas is most certainly Christian. ... didn’t Xmas start being used exactly for that reason, i.e. to separate the event from religion. I didn’t grow up believing in Jesus, but I definitely believed in Santa Claus.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > didn’t Xmas start being used exactly for that reason, i.e. to separate the event from religion. No, its a Christian abvreviation originating from the ancient use of the greek Chi (visually identical to Latin X), sometimes along with Rho (Latin P) — the first two letters of Christ in Greek — as an abbreviation for Christ. Itsl dates back to, IIRC, the 16th C with similar forms back to the medieval period. Its been railed about as originating in a modern attempt to de-Christianize (or even explicitly paganize) Christmas more recently, but that is completely ahistorical.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      Whatever its origins, I have the distinct impression that, in addition to being a shorthand, it is used commonly to disambiguate Secular Christmas from Christian Christmas. I agree that Fox News blows this out of proportion and isn't correct on minutia about its origins, but that doesn't mean it isn't commonly used to distinguish between secular and religious variants which is IMHO the more substantial point.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

throwaway894345 5y ago

Christmas and church settings don't indicate Christianity. Most secular Americans celebrate Christmas or attend weddings and funerals in Christian churches or officiated by Christian clergy. Indeed, for a very long time it was the norm to have one's own funeral or wedding at a church, officiated by Christian clergy, even if one was atheist or agnostic and even today it's quite common.

rootusrootus 5y ago
Guilty as charged. I'm an atheist (well, I'm ignostic, which is similar but I consider the distinction important), my wife is agnostic, but we had our wedding in a church officiated by a Christian minister. Why? Because my wife liked the venue, we both wanted a traditional ceremony, and we thought it would be a better fit with our families, many of whom are devout Christians.
mc32 5y ago
To emphasize this, some Japanese have “church weddings”... sometimes with a fake minister... except they are not, in the great majority of cases, Christian, or even religious at all. The just like a ceremony. It’s kind of exotic, I guess. Fortunately the Japanese don’t feel like they are othering, or appropriating or anything like that. They just want to enjoy something, something different.
sandyarmstrong 5y ago
Ask people of a non-Christian faith if they agree. All the replies here saying Christmas isn't Christian seem to be from people with a Christian upbringing, even if they are atheist or "secular".
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  We’re not debating whether or not everyone of every faith celebrates secular Christmas, but whether or not celebrating secular Christmas is sufficient to identify a character as Christian. By your own admission (“All the replies here saying Christmas isn't Christian seem to be from people with a Christian upbringing, even if they are atheist or secular”), it is not sufficient. Even if no one of a non-Christian background celebrated secular Christmas, “celebrating secular Christmas” still wouldn’t suffice to identify someone as Christian, but rather as either Christian or “from a Christian background”. And of course lots of people from Jewish, Hindu, secular etc backgrounds also celebrate secular Christmas, as many have attested in this thread.

whoooooo123 5y ago

> How often do you see Christmas used as a plot device? Or a church used as a setting? Or a priest character? Far less than 60% of the time. And you can celebrate Christmas without being a Christian.

bart_spoon 5y ago

Certainly not in 60+% of films. And since when is Christmas only celebrated by Christians in the West? It became fully commercialized and secularized decades ago. Its even a major holiday in Japan these days, where less than 1% of the population is Christian.

dang 5y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27503656 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27503656.