9 ms·

Departures of Police Officers Accelerated During a Year of Protests

35 points by koolba 5y ago

raxxorrax 5y ago
To be honest, if I had as spineless officials as some city governments seem to have, I would also quit my job. It is one thing to take public sentiment seriously, but it can also mean that you tell the public that they are wrong. They can protest that and they can elect someone different. But if you cannot justify the behavior of police, something you are directly responsible for, you have to give up your seat first. I believe that these men now leaving are among the best and principled law enforcement officers. I am not from the US, so my perspective might be wrong.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- pavel_lishin 5y ago
  > I believe that these men now leaving are among the best and principled law enforcement officers. An alternative explanation is that under closer scrutiny of the actions of police officers, the ones leaving are the ones who can no longer get away with the abuse of power they have become accustomed to.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > the ones leaving are the ones who can no longer get away with the abuse of power they have become accustomed to This is a tempting conclusion, which is why I’m cautious about reaching it. Absent evidence, we cannot dismiss the possibility that the ones who are leaving are the good ones. Those with a strong moral core uncomfortable with their peers or sick of being lumped in by the public with them.
    - pavel_lishin 5y ago
      Yeah; it is definitely a tempting conclusion. I don't have any good data one way or the other. I have exactly one data point - one police officer I personally know - and he's not retiring ahead of the plan he's set for himself.
- yardie 5y ago
  > They can protest that and they can elect someone different. They did exactly that. Some of the officers felt they were no longer being shielded by the political class. The principled LEOs left a long time ago, usually after their rookie year once they realized the police department had no principals. The ones leaving now know the jig is up. The next generation of officers will realize they are taken to task about their decisions and training and will act accordingly.
- syops 5y ago
  In the U.S. elected officials in a city are not directly responsible for the behavior of police. Often times when council members criticize police the response by police is to withhold or delay services in that member’s district. Police departments have been known to hold cities hostage when the elected officials aren’t supportive enough of the thin blue line.
  - Clubber 5y ago
    They have the power of the purse though, which is why some people believe funding, or limitation thereof, is the only viable recourse.
- wccrawford 5y ago
  As a white male, I have long thought that far too many cops were bullies and abused their power. It helps that my parents are immigrants, and my parents' accents give them away, which leads to cops and even judges doing stupid things to side with the locals instead. I can't even imagine how much worse it is for minorities and in places that are notoriously corrupt. I believe that both good and bad cops are quitting in record numbers right now. Because, as you say, good cops can't abide the situation and also can't do anything about it. But bad cops are finding that their entire livelihood is at stake if they stay, even just counting their past misdeeds. And there's no way they'd stop acting that way. It's who they are and they've gotten away with it for too long to stop themselves.
  - bko 5y ago
    > . It helps that my parents are immigrants, and my parents' accents give them away, which leads to cops and even judges doing stupid things to side with the locals instead. Can you expand on the negative experiences your immigrant parents had with police and courts? Stop and frisk or things like that? The minority of people (including Black Americans) don't support less police time in their neighborhoods Preference for Amount of Time Police Spend in Your Area Would you rather the police spend more time, the same amount of time or less time as they currently spend in your area? More time; Same amount of time; Less time; Black Americans 20 61 19 White Americans 17 71 12 Hispanic Americans 24 59 17 Asian Americans 9 63 28 U.S. adults 19 67 14 https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r...
    - wccrawford 5y ago
      A cop decided that the guy who let his kid drive the boat wasn't at fault in the accident, but my parents were, despite my parents doing everything right. A judge decided that a huge, old tree wasn't worth anything (when someone else cut it down without asking), and sided against my parents. Those are the 2 things that come to mind immediately. Basically, any interactions that involved my parents and a local were biased towards the locals by cops/judges/etc.
- newsclues 5y ago
  If the best, most principled people are leaving the job, then won’t the people left doing the job be the worst and least principled? Thus accelerating or concentrating the bad people left on the job.
  - steveBK123 5y ago
    Exactly. This struck me similarly as the problem with "defund". I've never seen an organization improved by lowering the average compensation and therefore recruiting standards!
    - syops 5y ago
      I believe the defund crowd wants a dismantling of current policing structures and for new ones to be put in place. Police departments and union contracts within those departments are such that reform is virtually impossible without dismantling/rebuilding.
      - steveBK123 5y ago
        The problem with the defund crowd is they don't actually have a cohesive message of what they want and the branding is terrible, just a political hand grenade for the opposition. It runs the spectrum from "we just mean re-allocate budget toward community policing" to "no, we really do mean abolish police". LOL.
        syops 5y ago
        The Minneapolis police department is beyond redemption. That department needs to be dismantled and replaced with a new system. In Minneapolis this was the goal with the initial "defund the police" mantra. A better term should be used because it's easy for opponents to use that term to mean something that was not originally intended.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > But if you cannot justify the behavior of police, something you are directly responsible for, you have to give up your seat first. If you believe police officers are accountable to pseudo-random elected representatives, you'd like to think again. At best, they're accountable to the Executive power on a nation-wide level, because that's where their guns and money come from. But in many cases, the police is an autonomous force of repression that barely answers to anyone but itself, creating a culture of omerta. And the more you cover things up, the more you get promoted for having shown your loyalty to the structure. Other institutions such as the judicial system are often subordinated to the police ; you can read Michel Foucault on the matter if you're interested. In France more specifically, "our" police force has a history of countless murders and atrocities. After WWII nazi occupation, the police establishment was NOT dismantled/denazified, and the same prefects who oversaw the extermination of jews, communists, homosexuals, tsigans, anarchists, handicapped folks (among others) oversaw bloody repression of the people of Algeria. If you want a more detailed account of that history, you should probably read Mathieu Rigouste (sociologist/historian of the police) or Frantz Fanon (anti-colonial psychiatrist). If simply glazing at facts on Wikipedia is enough, just check out "Vel d'hiv" (1940) and "17 octobre 1961". It's the same police force and the same stadium used to disappear, torture and deport people. > I believe that these men now leaving are among the best and principled law enforcement officers. That is always the case. Those people who join the police force because they want to "help others" are always the first ones to leave, when they realize the police has NEVER EVER been about helping anyone, and is only there to protect the rich and the privileged elites.
- NoOneNew 5y ago
  Except for damned if you do, damned if you dont situations. Most higher ups in law enforcement act more like wannabe politicians rather than senior LEO that manage and coordinate. If you're on the bottom of the totem pole and you see regular cases of seniority or random outside politicians throwing every officer they can under the bus for virtue signaling votes... I wonder how well that'll work out. Let's add on the policy and public sentiment of defund the police, because it's the cops fault crimes are committed. How's that working out in Seattle and Minneapolis? Do a search on the crime rates of the cities that decided cOpS bAd. Crime rates went up, badly. Look, dont get me wrong, reform is needed. I actually say the prison systems and punishments needs massive, massive reform here. Non-violent criminals should never, ever be held in the same building as violent, but that happens about 60-70% of the time (last I saw, but I think it may have been state specific, this was years ago). I also dont think petty, bullshit crimes should get jail time, but this is a vague statement that requires a large discussion outside of here. Plus, you get asshole cops the same way you get asshole anything. It happens. Dont pretend for a second the academic or tech world is full of angels. We are talking about humans. However, if the "good" cops have a low tolerance for bullshit because they just want to do the civil job they WANT to do, properly... you start to push out the internal checks and balances. Ultimately though, I find it funny how "intelligent" people are so incredibly stupid when it comes to law enforcement. Cops dont make laws. They abide by laws created by legislator politicians. Cops cant argue if a law should be enforced. Only judges and sheriffs can make that call (both are elected positions by the way). However, again, they cant create laws. They work in the spectrum given. The whole checks and balance thing if you paid attention in school. The same politicians who saw "cops bad, shame on them" are the same shit stains that made the law enforcement policy that's hated. Then... they throw the cops under the bus... huh, I wonder why people dont want to be cops once they see how stupid both politicians and the public are on the matter. My honest opinion, as an American that's lived here his whole life, the people fell asleep at the wheel and we are headed for a cliff. It's not the road's fault that there's a turn, it's the driver's fault for not keeping their eyes open. Politicians making bullshit laws for cops to follow then blaming cops for those laws is Biblical level the devil laughing while striking a deal.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > Do a search on the crime rates of the cities that decided cOpS bAd. Crime rates went up, badly. It probably shouldn't be surprising that crime went up in a global pandemic and the resulting economic distress. Crime went up all over; I rather suspect Black Lives Matter wasn't responsible for the increase in Billings, Montana, for example, with a black population of 0.8%. https://www.krtv.com/news/crime-and-courts/violent-crime-surged-in-billings-in-2020 https://www.krtv.com/news/crime-and-courts/violent-crime-sur... > Cops cant argue if a law should be enforced. Cops do this all the time. They let people off with warnings, or just let it pass them by. There's immense discretion at the individual cop level on whether crimes should lead to an arrest.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
I'd be real interested in seeing the city by city breakdown and the per capita crime rate and per capita department headcount. My gut feeling tells me that over the last year policing changed a hell of a lot more in bigger and richer cities with larger departments that could justify the cost of doing a lot of proactive policing than it did in smaller or poorer cities that only really had the headcount to respond to whatever gets called in. The former group is being told "don't harass that drug dealer unless he's causing problems, we don't wanna risk having a Floyd on our hands" whereas the latter group is still going wherever dispatch sends them and maybe they're getting a little extra lecture on not resorting to violence but on the day to day it doesn't really change the nature of their jobs.
- yardie 5y ago
  > "don't harass that drug dealer unless he's causing problems By drug dealer I assume you mean person of color. If they were harassing the drug dealer for dealing drugs there should be plenty of evidence to back the case. If they are using a hunch to harass a civilian and that hunch is the color of their skin, or dress with no other mitigating factors then they should be bounced right out of the force. Also, by design, police are a reactionary force in the US. A crime is committed, the police react. Pre-crime doesn't exist except in sci-fi.
  - Octoth0rpe 5y ago
    > Also, by design, police are a reactionary force in the US. A crime is committed, the police react. Generally true, but somewhat less true when one considers policies like stop/frisk.
    - yardie 5y ago
      Stop and frisk without pretext of a crime was found to be unconstitutional since the 60s but NYPD was going to do it anyway until it was reaffirmed in 2014.
  - bko 5y ago
    Not necessarily. A lot of people get processed through the system a lot so they're well known by most officers.
tootie 5y ago
For context, resignations are spiking across the board in all industries and all over the country: https://www.wsj.com/articles/forget-going-back-to-the-officepeople-are-just-quitting-instead-11623576602 https://www.wsj.com/articles/forget-going-back-to-the-office... I'd suspect this is part and parcel of that and less driven by politics or protests. It's been a tough year and a half for everyone and fatigue is setting in. People are reassessing their priorities in life.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  If we claim that the culture of law enforcement is corrupt, we should be encouraged by the turnover. The problem with that appealing line of thinking for me is the massive amount of mandatory overtime the cops have worked in the past year, which might be nice in the beginning (a lot of cash) but after a year crazy/depression-making. Add to that the weird determination of cities to beat 2020 numbers in crime stats (2020 was a unique year) keeping the OT going. Teachers have been drying up, too, because of local pols using public employees as a political football. It's all pretty complicated.
  - avs733 5y ago
    >If we claim that the culture of law enforcement is corrupt, we should be encouraged by the turnover. It could also be that the better ones are resigning...unfortunately. Unfortunately complicated. Public employees are still what make an enormous amount of this country work and they are consistently abused and used as tools in ways that hurt their ability to do so.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - steveBK123 5y ago
    Yes but if you've ever worked in a company with high voluntary turnover.. you've probably realized the first to leave are not the ones you want to leave.. and the ones you wish left tend to hang on for dear life..
  - tootie 5y ago
bradklein 5y ago
Here are some facts from the City of Vallejo, a city of 120,000 people located 30 miles north-east of San Francisco: - Recently featured in ABC's 20/20 show for a "Gone Girl" case were the Vallejo Police Department accused a couple of faking a kidnapping. The woman was sexually assaulted during her kidnapping, and the VPD staged a news conference claiming the whole thing was made up. The city paid the couple millions for the VPD's mistakes. https://abc7news.com/gone-girl-kidnapping-vallejo-police-apologize-for-calling-hoax-2020-tonight-on-abc-ca/10744429/ https://abc7news.com/gone-girl-kidnapping-vallejo-police-apo... - A police officer shot and killed a person riding his bicycle without a helmet, when the person did not stop. The city paid the person's family millions in settlement. https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/5-7-million-settlement-reached-in-2018-vallejo-police-shooting-death-of-ronell-foster/ https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/5-7-million-settlement-r... - Officers practice of celebrating kills with ceremony and badge-tip bending was recently uncovered. https://openvallejo.org/2020/07/28/vallejo-police-bend-badge-tips-to-mark-fatal-shootings/ https://openvallejo.org/2020/07/28/vallejo-police-bend-badge... - Recently fired the Police Union president for destroying police evidence and threatening a journalist. The officer was hired by his father, who was the Police Chief a few years ago. https://abc7news.com/vallejo-police-association-union-president-fired-investigation/10495801/ https://abc7news.com/vallejo-police-association-union-presid... - I think one thing a lot of people don't know if how much their local police officer make. Here are the stats for the city of Vallejo, the person costing the city $600K/year in wage and benefit was recently fired. https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?a=vallejo&q=police&y=2019&s=-total https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?a=vallejo...
- pjc50 5y ago
  Re: cost, some reports have suggested that the officers with the most complaints against them are also the ones most likely to be engaged in overtime fraud (e.g. Boston).
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Nobody ever complained that a cop was sleeping in his cruiser not bothering anybody or that he was on the golf course when he was supposed to be running a speed trap. But I also don't put it past the guys who treat the public like crap to also turn around and fudge a timecard.
ceilingcorner 5y ago
When you demonize an entire profession due to the unjust actions of 0.1% of its members, don't be surprised when the only police officers left are those that revel in the Us vs. Them mentality. I really don't think this is going to end well.
- walls 5y ago
  When the profession doesn't have any repercussions for bad actors, this is the inevitable result.
  - ceilingcorner 5y ago
    Far more people die from medical malpractice mistakes every year. I don't see anyone calling for dismantling the medical profession. Police are a necessary part of modern civilization. Full stop. If they have no repercussions for bad actions, then implement them. It really isn't that complicated.
    - Clubber 5y ago
      >Police are a necessary part of modern civilization. Full stop. Sure, but how many? How much is the right amount. I hear the same said about our military, but it's degrees. Should we double the amount of money we spend on police? Triple? What's enough? Do we have too much now? There are lots of indications to me that it's turned into a make-work program. >Police are a necessary part of modern civilization. Full stop. If they have no repercussions for bad actions, then implement them. The unions are too powerful, the profession is too corrupt. Police "self regulate," and insiders who try to bring light to corruption typically get punished. It's too hard for the political process. All the while, the citizenry continues to get robbed, beaten and killed. Honestly the best thing to happen to the citizenry is phone cameras. >It really isn't that complicated. Maybe you should give it some more thought.
      - ashneo76 5y ago
        Why is this down voted?
spywaregorilla 5y ago
A massive part of that seems to be from retirements. That's interesting to me. Probably a good thing? From the context of reducing police misconduct, as bad as the modern cop perspective is, I feel it was much worse in the past. I would guess removing the old guard is part of a positive transition going forward.
neonate 5y ago
https://archive.md/32HFE https://archive.md/32HFE
aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 5y ago
A close friend of mine is a law enforcement officer. She is retiring this year, a little early, partly because of the uncertainty around the future of qualified immunity.

35 points by koolba 5y ago

To be honest, if I had as spineless officials as some city governments seem to have, I would also quit my job. It is one thing to take public sentiment seriously, but it can also mean that you tell the public that they are wrong. They can protest that and they can elect someone different. But if you cannot justify the behavior of police, something you are directly responsible for, you have to give up your seat first. I believe that these men now leaving are among the best and principled law enforcement officers. I am not from the US, so my perspective might be wrong.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pavel_lishin 5y ago
> I believe that these men now leaving are among the best and principled law enforcement officers. An alternative explanation is that under closer scrutiny of the actions of police officers, the ones leaving are the ones who can no longer get away with the abuse of power they have become accustomed to.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > the ones leaving are the ones who can no longer get away with the abuse of power they have become accustomed to This is a tempting conclusion, which is why I’m cautious about reaching it. Absent evidence, we cannot dismiss the possibility that the ones who are leaving are the good ones. Those with a strong moral core uncomfortable with their peers or sick of being lumped in by the public with them.
  - pavel_lishin 5y ago
    Yeah; it is definitely a tempting conclusion. I don't have any good data one way or the other. I have exactly one data point - one police officer I personally know - and he's not retiring ahead of the plan he's set for himself.
yardie 5y ago
> They can protest that and they can elect someone different. They did exactly that. Some of the officers felt they were no longer being shielded by the political class. The principled LEOs left a long time ago, usually after their rookie year once they realized the police department had no principals. The ones leaving now know the jig is up. The next generation of officers will realize they are taken to task about their decisions and training and will act accordingly.
syops 5y ago
In the U.S. elected officials in a city are not directly responsible for the behavior of police. Often times when council members criticize police the response by police is to withhold or delay services in that member’s district. Police departments have been known to hold cities hostage when the elected officials aren’t supportive enough of the thin blue line.
- Clubber 5y ago
  They have the power of the purse though, which is why some people believe funding, or limitation thereof, is the only viable recourse.
wccrawford 5y ago
As a white male, I have long thought that far too many cops were bullies and abused their power. It helps that my parents are immigrants, and my parents' accents give them away, which leads to cops and even judges doing stupid things to side with the locals instead. I can't even imagine how much worse it is for minorities and in places that are notoriously corrupt. I believe that both good and bad cops are quitting in record numbers right now. Because, as you say, good cops can't abide the situation and also can't do anything about it. But bad cops are finding that their entire livelihood is at stake if they stay, even just counting their past misdeeds. And there's no way they'd stop acting that way. It's who they are and they've gotten away with it for too long to stop themselves.
- bko 5y ago
  > . It helps that my parents are immigrants, and my parents' accents give them away, which leads to cops and even judges doing stupid things to side with the locals instead. Can you expand on the negative experiences your immigrant parents had with police and courts? Stop and frisk or things like that? The minority of people (including Black Americans) don't support less police time in their neighborhoods Preference for Amount of Time Police Spend in Your Area Would you rather the police spend more time, the same amount of time or less time as they currently spend in your area? More time; Same amount of time; Less time; Black Americans 20 61 19 White Americans 17 71 12 Hispanic Americans 24 59 17 Asian Americans 9 63 28 U.S. adults 19 67 14 https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r...
  - wccrawford 5y ago
    A cop decided that the guy who let his kid drive the boat wasn't at fault in the accident, but my parents were, despite my parents doing everything right. A judge decided that a huge, old tree wasn't worth anything (when someone else cut it down without asking), and sided against my parents. Those are the 2 things that come to mind immediately. Basically, any interactions that involved my parents and a local were biased towards the locals by cops/judges/etc.
newsclues 5y ago
If the best, most principled people are leaving the job, then won’t the people left doing the job be the worst and least principled? Thus accelerating or concentrating the bad people left on the job.
- steveBK123 5y ago
  Exactly. This struck me similarly as the problem with "defund". I've never seen an organization improved by lowering the average compensation and therefore recruiting standards!
  - syops 5y ago
    I believe the defund crowd wants a dismantling of current policing structures and for new ones to be put in place. Police departments and union contracts within those departments are such that reform is virtually impossible without dismantling/rebuilding.
    - steveBK123 5y ago
      The problem with the defund crowd is they don't actually have a cohesive message of what they want and the branding is terrible, just a political hand grenade for the opposition. It runs the spectrum from "we just mean re-allocate budget toward community policing" to "no, we really do mean abolish police". LOL.
      - syops 5y ago
        The Minneapolis police department is beyond redemption. That department needs to be dismantled and replaced with a new system. In Minneapolis this was the goal with the initial "defund the police" mantra. A better term should be used because it's easy for opponents to use that term to mean something that was not originally intended.
southerntofu 5y ago
> But if you cannot justify the behavior of police, something you are directly responsible for, you have to give up your seat first. If you believe police officers are accountable to pseudo-random elected representatives, you'd like to think again. At best, they're accountable to the Executive power on a nation-wide level, because that's where their guns and money come from. But in many cases, the police is an autonomous force of repression that barely answers to anyone but itself, creating a culture of omerta. And the more you cover things up, the more you get promoted for having shown your loyalty to the structure. Other institutions such as the judicial system are often subordinated to the police ; you can read Michel Foucault on the matter if you're interested. In France more specifically, "our" police force has a history of countless murders and atrocities. After WWII nazi occupation, the police establishment was NOT dismantled/denazified, and the same prefects who oversaw the extermination of jews, communists, homosexuals, tsigans, anarchists, handicapped folks (among others) oversaw bloody repression of the people of Algeria. If you want a more detailed account of that history, you should probably read Mathieu Rigouste (sociologist/historian of the police) or Frantz Fanon (anti-colonial psychiatrist). If simply glazing at facts on Wikipedia is enough, just check out "Vel d'hiv" (1940) and "17 octobre 1961". It's the same police force and the same stadium used to disappear, torture and deport people. > I believe that these men now leaving are among the best and principled law enforcement officers. That is always the case. Those people who join the police force because they want to "help others" are always the first ones to leave, when they realize the police has NEVER EVER been about helping anyone, and is only there to protect the rich and the privileged elites.
NoOneNew 5y ago
Except for damned if you do, damned if you dont situations. Most higher ups in law enforcement act more like wannabe politicians rather than senior LEO that manage and coordinate. If you're on the bottom of the totem pole and you see regular cases of seniority or random outside politicians throwing every officer they can under the bus for virtue signaling votes... I wonder how well that'll work out. Let's add on the policy and public sentiment of defund the police, because it's the cops fault crimes are committed. How's that working out in Seattle and Minneapolis? Do a search on the crime rates of the cities that decided cOpS bAd. Crime rates went up, badly. Look, dont get me wrong, reform is needed. I actually say the prison systems and punishments needs massive, massive reform here. Non-violent criminals should never, ever be held in the same building as violent, but that happens about 60-70% of the time (last I saw, but I think it may have been state specific, this was years ago). I also dont think petty, bullshit crimes should get jail time, but this is a vague statement that requires a large discussion outside of here. Plus, you get asshole cops the same way you get asshole anything. It happens. Dont pretend for a second the academic or tech world is full of angels. We are talking about humans. However, if the "good" cops have a low tolerance for bullshit because they just want to do the civil job they WANT to do, properly... you start to push out the internal checks and balances. Ultimately though, I find it funny how "intelligent" people are so incredibly stupid when it comes to law enforcement. Cops dont make laws. They abide by laws created by legislator politicians. Cops cant argue if a law should be enforced. Only judges and sheriffs can make that call (both are elected positions by the way). However, again, they cant create laws. They work in the spectrum given. The whole checks and balance thing if you paid attention in school. The same politicians who saw "cops bad, shame on them" are the same shit stains that made the law enforcement policy that's hated. Then... they throw the cops under the bus... huh, I wonder why people dont want to be cops once they see how stupid both politicians and the public are on the matter. My honest opinion, as an American that's lived here his whole life, the people fell asleep at the wheel and we are headed for a cliff. It's not the road's fault that there's a turn, it's the driver's fault for not keeping their eyes open. Politicians making bullshit laws for cops to follow then blaming cops for those laws is Biblical level the devil laughing while striking a deal.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > Do a search on the crime rates of the cities that decided cOpS bAd. Crime rates went up, badly. It probably shouldn't be surprising that crime went up in a global pandemic and the resulting economic distress. Crime went up all over; I rather suspect Black Lives Matter wasn't responsible for the increase in Billings, Montana, for example, with a black population of 0.8%. https://www.krtv.com/news/crime-and-courts/violent-crime-surged-in-billings-in-2020 https://www.krtv.com/news/crime-and-courts/violent-crime-sur... > Cops cant argue if a law should be enforced. Cops do this all the time. They let people off with warnings, or just let it pass them by. There's immense discretion at the individual cop level on whether crimes should lead to an arrest.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

I'd be real interested in seeing the city by city breakdown and the per capita crime rate and per capita department headcount. My gut feeling tells me that over the last year policing changed a hell of a lot more in bigger and richer cities with larger departments that could justify the cost of doing a lot of proactive policing than it did in smaller or poorer cities that only really had the headcount to respond to whatever gets called in. The former group is being told "don't harass that drug dealer unless he's causing problems, we don't wanna risk having a Floyd on our hands" whereas the latter group is still going wherever dispatch sends them and maybe they're getting a little extra lecture on not resorting to violence but on the day to day it doesn't really change the nature of their jobs.

yardie 5y ago
> "don't harass that drug dealer unless he's causing problems By drug dealer I assume you mean person of color. If they were harassing the drug dealer for dealing drugs there should be plenty of evidence to back the case. If they are using a hunch to harass a civilian and that hunch is the color of their skin, or dress with no other mitigating factors then they should be bounced right out of the force. Also, by design, police are a reactionary force in the US. A crime is committed, the police react. Pre-crime doesn't exist except in sci-fi.
- Octoth0rpe 5y ago
  > Also, by design, police are a reactionary force in the US. A crime is committed, the police react. Generally true, but somewhat less true when one considers policies like stop/frisk.
  - yardie 5y ago
    Stop and frisk without pretext of a crime was found to be unconstitutional since the 60s but NYPD was going to do it anyway until it was reaffirmed in 2014.
- bko 5y ago
  Not necessarily. A lot of people get processed through the system a lot so they're well known by most officers.

tootie 5y ago

For context, resignations are spiking across the board in all industries and all over the country: https://www.wsj.com/articles/forget-going-back-to-the-officepeople-are-just-quitting-instead-11623576602 https://www.wsj.com/articles/forget-going-back-to-the-office... I'd suspect this is part and parcel of that and less driven by politics or protests. It's been a tough year and a half for everyone and fatigue is setting in. People are reassessing their priorities in life.

pessimizer 5y ago
If we claim that the culture of law enforcement is corrupt, we should be encouraged by the turnover. The problem with that appealing line of thinking for me is the massive amount of mandatory overtime the cops have worked in the past year, which might be nice in the beginning (a lot of cash) but after a year crazy/depression-making. Add to that the weird determination of cities to beat 2020 numbers in crime stats (2020 was a unique year) keeping the OT going. Teachers have been drying up, too, because of local pols using public employees as a political football. It's all pretty complicated.
- avs733 5y ago
  >If we claim that the culture of law enforcement is corrupt, we should be encouraged by the turnover. It could also be that the better ones are resigning...unfortunately. Unfortunately complicated. Public employees are still what make an enormous amount of this country work and they are consistently abused and used as tools in ways that hurt their ability to do so.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- steveBK123 5y ago
  Yes but if you've ever worked in a company with high voluntary turnover.. you've probably realized the first to leave are not the ones you want to leave.. and the ones you wish left tend to hang on for dear life..
- tootie 5y ago

bradklein 5y ago

Here are some facts from the City of Vallejo, a city of 120,000 people located 30 miles north-east of San Francisco: - Recently featured in ABC's 20/20 show for a "Gone Girl" case were the Vallejo Police Department accused a couple of faking a kidnapping. The woman was sexually assaulted during her kidnapping, and the VPD staged a news conference claiming the whole thing was made up. The city paid the couple millions for the VPD's mistakes. https://abc7news.com/gone-girl-kidnapping-vallejo-police-apologize-for-calling-hoax-2020-tonight-on-abc-ca/10744429/ https://abc7news.com/gone-girl-kidnapping-vallejo-police-apo... - A police officer shot and killed a person riding his bicycle without a helmet, when the person did not stop. The city paid the person's family millions in settlement. https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/5-7-million-settlement-reached-in-2018-vallejo-police-shooting-death-of-ronell-foster/ https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/5-7-million-settlement-r... - Officers practice of celebrating kills with ceremony and badge-tip bending was recently uncovered. https://openvallejo.org/2020/07/28/vallejo-police-bend-badge-tips-to-mark-fatal-shootings/ https://openvallejo.org/2020/07/28/vallejo-police-bend-badge... - Recently fired the Police Union president for destroying police evidence and threatening a journalist. The officer was hired by his father, who was the Police Chief a few years ago. https://abc7news.com/vallejo-police-association-union-president-fired-investigation/10495801/ https://abc7news.com/vallejo-police-association-union-presid... - I think one thing a lot of people don't know if how much their local police officer make. Here are the stats for the city of Vallejo, the person costing the city $600K/year in wage and benefit was recently fired. https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?a=vallejo&q=police&y=2019&s=-total https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?a=vallejo...

pjc50 5y ago
Re: cost, some reports have suggested that the officers with the most complaints against them are also the ones most likely to be engaged in overtime fraud (e.g. Boston).
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Nobody ever complained that a cop was sleeping in his cruiser not bothering anybody or that he was on the golf course when he was supposed to be running a speed trap. But I also don't put it past the guys who treat the public like crap to also turn around and fudge a timecard.

ceilingcorner 5y ago

When you demonize an entire profession due to the unjust actions of 0.1% of its members, don't be surprised when the only police officers left are those that revel in the Us vs. Them mentality. I really don't think this is going to end well.

walls 5y ago
When the profession doesn't have any repercussions for bad actors, this is the inevitable result.
- ceilingcorner 5y ago
  Far more people die from medical malpractice mistakes every year. I don't see anyone calling for dismantling the medical profession. Police are a necessary part of modern civilization. Full stop. If they have no repercussions for bad actions, then implement them. It really isn't that complicated.
  - Clubber 5y ago
    >Police are a necessary part of modern civilization. Full stop. Sure, but how many? How much is the right amount. I hear the same said about our military, but it's degrees. Should we double the amount of money we spend on police? Triple? What's enough? Do we have too much now? There are lots of indications to me that it's turned into a make-work program. >Police are a necessary part of modern civilization. Full stop. If they have no repercussions for bad actions, then implement them. The unions are too powerful, the profession is too corrupt. Police "self regulate," and insiders who try to bring light to corruption typically get punished. It's too hard for the political process. All the while, the citizenry continues to get robbed, beaten and killed. Honestly the best thing to happen to the citizenry is phone cameras. >It really isn't that complicated. Maybe you should give it some more thought.
    - ashneo76 5y ago
      Why is this down voted?

spywaregorilla 5y ago

A massive part of that seems to be from retirements. That's interesting to me. Probably a good thing? From the context of reducing police misconduct, as bad as the modern cop perspective is, I feel it was much worse in the past. I would guess removing the old guard is part of a positive transition going forward.

neonate 5y ago

https://archive.md/32HFE https://archive.md/32HFE

aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 5y ago

A close friend of mine is a law enforcement officer. She is retiring this year, a little early, partly because of the uncertainty around the future of qualified immunity.