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How Indian Zoroastrians helped shape modern Iran

229 points by Thevet 5y ago

nsmog767 5y ago
I am 25% Parsi but didn’t know much of the history. Really interesting.
wombatmobile 5y ago
Zoroastrianism is one of the world's oldest continuously practiced religions, based on the teachings of the Iranian-speaking prophet Zoroaster. In Zoroastrianism, the purpose in life is to become an ashavan (a master of Asha, the life force) and to bring happiness into the world, which contributes to the cosmic battle against evil. Zoroastrianism's core teachings include: Follow the Threefold Path of Asha: Humata, Huxta, Huvarshta (Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds). Charity is a way of maintaining one's soul aligned to Asha and to spread happiness. The spiritual equality and duty of men and women alike. Being good for the sake of goodness and without the hope of reward. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism
- discreteevent 5y ago
  I've been to the fire temple in Yazd and there was an inscription on the wall. I don't remember the details but the main gist of it was about remaining open minded and welcoming new ideas. I'm not sure if this is a core tenet of Zoroastrianism or if it was a local thing but I don't know of another ancient religion with that emphasis.
  - db1234 5y ago
    "आ नो भद्राः क्रतवो यन्तु विश्वतः" - Rig Veda. May good thoughts come us from all sides. Full context can be found here https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/36196/context-and-meaning-for-a-rig-veda-mantra https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/36196/context-a...
- sydthrowaway 5y ago
  There is also a link between Zoroastrianism and the ancient Vedic religion. They probably were the same before a schism led by Zoroaster.
  - deleted 5y ago
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  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
    > There is also a link between Zoroastrianism and the ancient Vedic religion. There are probably elements in both coming from even more ancient Indo-European religions. I wonder if you could also find similarities with German and Greek deities as well and try to reconstruct a proto-Indo European religion.
    - _dt_ 5y ago
      There's been quite a lot of research into this area, I think its super fascinating. Wikipedia has a good page on it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology) but there's also a many interesting books
      - nextaccountic 5y ago
        Hello, does this include the Sumerian and Babylonian religions? I am asking because Aphrodite can be traced back to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte and then to Ishtar / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      Some intriguing elements have been reconstructed. For example, the myths of a primeval, world-nurturing cow from Norse mythology tell us that the cow-worship element in Vedic religion must be ancient indeed.
  - KorematsuFred 5y ago
    The most ancient book of India is Rigveda. The first of Vedas. Exact timing is up for debate but could be easily 5000+ years old. I think in one of the early chapters the book describes a war, a war of 10 kings it is called. Leaving the mystical elements aside this war would shape future of India and Persia going forward. The historians I know believe that this war is not pure fiction but rooted in truth. In this war 9 Persian tribes unite to finally destroy the one king on India's western border (modern day Pakistan). All those tribes are named and it turns out all except 2 still exist in modern day Iran. The defeat of Indian king is certain except that Persians make a terrible mistake, they try to cross a shallow river to pursue Indian king and a sudden cloudburst in mountains wipes off majority of the army. Persians see this as Gods favouring Sudas, the Indian King, Indian King Sudas believes this to be the doing of his God Indra. Defeated Persians walk back. It is a long journey and by the time they reach home their numbers are low and moral is broken, one of those tribes would split further to become the modern day Zoroastrianism. World's first monotheistic religion. Technically, Zoroastrianism is at direct conflict with Hinduism and yet both religions have thrived side by side in India and average Hindu has very positive opinion of Parasi people (Zoroastrianism). Examine the language of both religions. In Sanskrit Asura means evil people (demon), in Persian Asura becomes Ahura which means Lord. I have always felt that Parasi and Hindu communities are exceptional example of how religious groups with opposite viewpoints can live next to each other and peacefully.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  AFAIK a lot of Armenian church vocabulary is actually Parthian-origin (pre-300s AD) Zoroastrian terms repurposed.
- deleted 5y ago
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- beebeepka 5y ago
  Is there a popular religion that is not completely centered around humans? I find these whole "happiness" and "charity" concepts fake and disturbing. As in good deeds = making other humans happy or whatever. Yah, I am not big on religion.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    "Is there a popular religion that is not completely centered around humans?" I don't understand what you mean by "completely centered around humans". Judaism is centered around worship of God, who is not human... but like every other human religion the worshipers themselves are human, so I guess in the sense that it has human worshipers it is "centered around humans".. is that what you mean? "I find these whole "happiness" and "charity" concepts fake and disturbing" Why do you think they're fake? "As in good deeds = making other humans happy or whatever" What's the problem with that?
    - beebeepka 5y ago
      Don't know about Judaism. Best I could manage was about an hour of the old testament. Had to give up after the 1000th WTF moment. What really pissed me was the insistence that god > hebrews > other humans> animals. What utter junk
      - notsureaboutpg 5y ago
        Do you think that all humans and animals are equal? It's obviously untrue by any objective measurement. Even human beings are not equal by any objective measurement. Only through a religious lens is there a concept of equality between human beings. That either through their suffering or service to others do they gain over others who have more status, power, etc. than them. Without that balancing factor, the world is bleak and stratified.
      - Juliate 5y ago
        As for anything that old, there's a huge lot of context (cultural, religious, geographic, contemporary, societal) that informs what was written and all the understandings around it (be it religious or cultural). You're totally in your right to be skeptic. Yet, one hour of your time reading a part of it without introduction or reference may not be how you will gain anything from it (whatever the gain would be, confirmation/deepening/deconstruction of your skepticism).
yazaddaruvala 5y ago
I am both Zoroastrian and Parsi, and while I adore seeing these articles on the top of HN (i.e. on a global stage), I am extremely curious: Who is upvoting these articles about my mostly forgotten culture and why?
- virgulino 5y ago
  I am, because Also sprach Zarathustra.
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  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    But be aware that Nietzsches Zarathustra has not much in common with the original Zarathustra. Rather the opposite, the original Zarathustra is considered the one, who brought the dualistic thinking of good vs. evil into this world. Nietzsche wanted to get rid of it, to go beyound good and evil, so he lets the creator of this (in his and my opinion) harmful philosophy negate this philosophy.
- dpeck 5y ago
  I’ve found that many of us who try to stay on the “cutting edge” of new wrt our professions and hobbies also have an interest in history of people and religions and a general interest with things that go back far into history. It’s not a complete overlap by any means, but it isn’t an uncommon pairing to find in people. Interesting archeological news, and things about less well know cultures are often shared and upvoted here as well.
- Alex3917 5y ago
  > Who is upvoting these articles about my mostly forgotten culture and why? I feel like Zoroastrianism is pretty mainstream, at least in the U.S. Even Obama celebrated Nowruz.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
blackoil 5y ago
Indian religions are interesting topic. It is birthplace of major religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism. Hinduism the most popular religion is unlike any other. Over time it is constantly modified and evolved. While Christianity and islam grew by replacing previous practices, Hinduism stitched all into one. So it has trees, fire, wind deity as well as abstract gods. Popular schools with different thoughts evolved and merged into a unified stream. Sadly recent radicalisation have dented its malleability.
- rocknor 5y ago
  Hinduism is not really a "religion", as the western term implies. From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism#Definitions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism#Definitions Hinduism includes a diversity of ideas on spirituality and traditions, but has no ecclesiastical order, no unquestionable religious authorities, no governing body, no prophet(s) nor any binding holy book; Hindus can choose to be polytheistic, pantheistic, panentheistic, pandeistic, henotheistic, monotheistic, monistic, agnostic, atheistic or humanist. According to Doniger, "ideas about all the major issues of faith and lifestyle – vegetarianism, nonviolence, belief in rebirth, even caste – are subjects of debate, not dogma. > Sadly recent radicalisation have dented its malleability. Hindutva shouldn't be confused with Hinduism: https://www.asianstudies.org/publications/eaa/archives/on-the-difference-between-hinduism-and-hindutva/ https://www.asianstudies.org/publications/eaa/archives/on-th...
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    "Hinduism" is more of an umbrella term for hundreds of different religions, practices, and beliefs. Christianity and Islam also have many, many different sects and varying beliefs, but Hinduism is even more varied.
    - deleted 5y ago
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    - srean 5y ago
      Indeed. The word Hindu does not occur in native literature, its an exonym https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endonym_and_exonym https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endonym_and_exonym If I remember correctly earliest recorded use of the word is in Persian/Zoroastrian text. There it's used not as a name of a religion but as a name for people living on the other side of the Indus river (called Sindhu in Sanskrit)
agency 5y ago
I recently stumbled on another ancient Iranian religion, that of the prophet Mani[1] and had a strong Baader-Meinhoff phenomenon thing where in the next couple of days I read the word “Manichean” used colloquially twice. I guess l it is used to describe a kind of over simplistic good vs. evil dualism. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_(prophet) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_(prophet)
eternalban 5y ago
The Pahlavi kings were Shi'ite Muslims. This article is spinning a revisionist narrative that has a mild whiff of using religion to divide a people. I lived in the Pahlavi Iran, which is certainly missed, but the notion that there was "neo-Zoroastrianism" in the air is news to me. Zoroaster was very simply framed as one of the prophets that the Muslim scripture asserts has been sent to "every nation" by God. Iranians were rather fed (and many actually believe this!) an interesting fable about how Shia Islam is the Iranian version of Islam. And from the 3 major classical Iranian empires and eras, it was not the very assertively Zoroastrian Sassanid empire that was memorialized and used as a vehicle to promote nationalism by Pahlavi Shahs, but rather the Hakhamaneshian (Achaemenid) dynasty. When the late Shah of Iran held his memorial to 2500 years of Iranian kings, he saluted Cyrus the Great, not some zealously Zoroastrian Sassanid Shah. http://irancollection.alborzi.com/2500/index.htm http://irancollection.alborzi.com/2500/index.htm Note the missing "flame". Note, instead, the Cylinder of Ku-Rosh (Cyrus the Great). And Cyrus, unlike his equally great successor Dariush, was rather cagey about his actual religious beliefs. Even in what passes for native "neo-classical" architecture, it was again the Achaemenid era that was front and center. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iranian_Foreign_Affaire_Ministry.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iranian_Foreign_Affaire_M...
- danans 5y ago
  > This article is spinning a revisionist narrative that has a mild whiff of using religion to divide a people. I think the article fairly represents that it was a complicated situation - with the Pahlavis using Zoroastrianism sourced from India as a tool to fuel Iranian nationalism, i.e.: "At the core of this tension lay the “implicit contradictions between the liberal goals of the Parsis and the more nationalist goals of many Iranians” during the interwar decades of the 1920s and 1930s." Perhaps as a result of the sponsorship of the Pahlavis, nearly every Iranian I've met outside Iran (including many who lived there before 1979) have good understanding of Zoroastrianism's role in Iran's history and culture - and a reason why many people in post-Islamic Iran have liberal values despite living under a theocracy. > Iranians were rather fed (and many actually believe this!) an interesting fable about how Shia Islam is the Iranian version of Islam. Persia had a significant influence on Islam even before the Arab conquest of Persia, evidenced by the Persian loanwords in Arabic [1]. It's hard to imagine how Persian culture wouldn't have had a huge influence on Islam inside Persia itself. 1. https://burjbaabil.com/2014/05/31/persian-loanwords-in-arabic/ https://burjbaabil.com/2014/05/31/persian-loanwords-in-arabi...
pmoriarty 5y ago
This reminds me of an essay I was just reading, "Zoroastrian Survivals in Iranian Folklore"[1], by the eminent religious scholar R. A. Zaehner (who I knew better for his famous debates in the 1960's and 1970's arguing that mystical experiences occasioned by psychedelics weren't true mystical experiences). From the introduction to the paper: "Visitors to the Vatican Museum in Rome will remember that the very first monuments, flanking the entrance to the first room in the vast gallery that leads ultimately to the Sistine Chapel, are neither saints not angels but what appear to be devils: for at each side of the entrance door, guarding it with their baleful presence, stand two most un-Christian deities with the head of a lion and gaping jaws. In both hands they bear keys, a snake encircles their bodies, and the Signs of the Zodiac are impressed on their limbs.[2] Coming face to face with these awesome figures Christians may well recall the words of St. Peter: "Be sober and watch; because your adversary, the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour" (i Pet. 5 . 8 ). The serpent too which envelops the body of the lion-headed deity is all too familiar, and one is tempted to identify it with that selfsame serpent which tempted our first mother, Eve, to eat of the forbidden fruit. Yet, interesting though the Christian parallels may be, we have long known that this rather repulsive deity has nothing to do with the Christian devil, for he figured in a cult that was for long Christianity's most potent rival in the early Roman Empire. This rival religion which has left monuments throughout the length and breadth of the Roman Empire is known as Mithraism, and its roots were originally in Iran; for the god Mithra, from whom the New Persian word mehr, meaning both the "sun" and "affection" derives, was, in the Zoroastrianism of the later Achaemenian Empire, second only to the supreme Deity, Ahura Mazdah himself." The paper concerns a discovery in the 1960's of an incomplete 600,000 word story written during WW2 by a mysterious Iranian by the name of Ali Mirdrekvandi[3], which Zaehner deduced must have been a retelling of ancient Zoroastrian myth and which, Zaehner argued, confirmed his identification of the lion-headed figure (the "Lionish god" in the story) as Ahriman, the false deity and enemy of their true god, Ahura Mazdah (Ohrmazd). [1] - https://archive.org/details/ZaehnerZorSurvivalsFolklore https://archive.org/details/ZaehnerZorSurvivalsFolklore [2] - http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/images/cimrm545.gif http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/images/cimrm545.gi... [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Mirdrekvandi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Mirdrekvandi
- aruggirello 5y ago
RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
What is interesting is Asuras and Devas in Persian and Indian religions. In India the Devas are gods and the Asuras are demons. In Persia, Asuras (called Ahuras) eventually came to become singular Ahura and identified with the supreme God and the Devas became demons. Thus the gods and demons are reversed between India and Persia.
- danans 5y ago
  Both the cognates Asura/Ahura and Deva/Daeva come from proto Indo European roots describing supernatural or divine beings ("divine" itself is derived from the same root as Deva/Daeva) . The polarization of the two into inimical identities is thought to have happened at some point in antiquity, but it cemented after the Indian Vedic period. During the Vedic period the Asuras weren't all bad - indeed many import demigods of the pantheon are Asuras. They are quite analogous in this way to the Norse Æsir and Vanir, who are not strictly good and evil, and like them often had their conflicts play out on Earth. While some scholars have suggested that the Asura/Deva split must represent an actual schism that took place between the Zoroastrians and the Vedic peoples, it could just as well be the result of cultural drift or the influence of other adjacent cultures.
- lazyninja987 5y ago
  as the other comment says, asura/deva were not allways hero/villain split. King Bali is the perfect example. Bali was called an asura, but he never did anything wrong. He waged wars with devas, and even when devas pleaded vishnu for defeating him, Vishnu recognized his virtues and agreed to push him to paatala (below earth) using trick instead of killing him. King Prahlad is also another example, he is born to an asura father, but is worshipped as deva. His cousins/sons were again be treated as asuras. Deva/Asura is calibrated to the speaker. as BBC once said, one man's hero is other man's villain.
virgulino 5y ago
There is a good episode of the BBC podcast "In Our Time" on the history and philosophy of Zoroastrianism: "How was the religion established in Ancient Persia, what is its body of beliefs and how have they been developed and disseminated? With Vesta Sarkhosh Curtis, Curator of Ancient Iranian Coins in the Department of Coins and Medals at the British Museum; Farrokh Vajifdar, Fellow of the Royal Asiatic Society; Alan Williams, Senior Lecturer in Comparative Religion at the University of Manchester." https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p005bc5v https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p005bc5v
loteck 5y ago
By the by, I hadn't heard of Zoroastrianism until I read Peck's A Short Stay In Hell, where the main character finds out (at the beginning) that Zoroastrianism was the one true and correct religion. It's a quick read, I'd recommend it. [0] https://bookshop.org/books/a-short-stay-in-hell/9780983748427 https://bookshop.org/books/a-short-stay-in-hell/978098374842...
skhr0680 5y ago
Zoroastrianism is the reason Mazda is spelled the way it is instead of Matsuda
occamschainsaw 5y ago
I find the anecdote(?) of how the first Parsi refugees convinced the ruler of the port city of Surat to let them immigrate wholesome. The ruler summoned the Parsi representatives to his court. When asked how would they assimilate in the local society, the Parsis asked for some sugar and milk. They mixed it in front of the ruler and said that this is how they will assimilate, not changing the society but making it sweeter. Even today the Parsi dialect of the Gujarati language is polite and sweet.
- cputester 5y ago
  Sanjan, not Surat. This story is unsubstantiated nonsense, and there is little to no evidence that the Parsis were originally refugees. Archaeological expeditions were already done in Sanjan, you can look up the results. > That the Zoroastrian migrants to Sanjan were basically a mercantile group is borne out by records as well as by excavated material. Andre Wink goes further and adds that the migration was not so much due to religious persecution as much as ‘a readjustment of commercial patterns which had arisen long before Islam, and, to an extent at least, a response to new opportunities in the transit trade between the Islamic world and al-Hind’ THE LANDING OF THE ZOROASTRIANS AT SANJAN The archaeological evidence - Rukshana Nanji and Homi Dhalla
- unmole 5y ago
  There's an additional detail in the apocryphal story. The king and the Parsis didn't have a language in common. The king was reluctant to allow them to settle. To communicate this, he dops a few pebbles into a container full of milk which promptly overflows. The implication being that the kingdom was full. The Parsis then mix sugar into the milk implying they would assimilate.
sharadov 5y ago
While growing up in India I knew some Parsi families - they are good at business, ethical and charitable. The Tata Group in India founded by Parsis , a 150 year old business conglomerate- is well respected and known for their philanthropy.
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mboto 5y ago
Freddie Mercury was also of Parsi origin[0], with both of his parents practicing Zoroastrianism. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury#Early_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury#Early_life
truth_ 5y ago
Indian Parsis are the "model minority" of India. They are rich, educated, charitable, and polite. Extremely low to non-existent crime rates. They serve in the armed forces, active in academia and commerce. They are also quite highly involved in Bollywood.
- ElViajero 5y ago
  That is interesting because one characteristic feeds the other. The more rich and educated the more polite and lower rates of crime. The lower rates of crime the more prosper a society is. That is why it is so important to help people to get out of cycles of violence and crime.
  - chakkepolja 5y ago
    It's also the result of culture. Some groups just value education more than others.
    - rocknor 5y ago
      BS, as if culture is something that is constant and does not evolve. It's more like a feedback loop. Culture influences results and results influence culture. Tip it the wrong way and it's hard to get out of a negative feedback loop.
  - thiago_fm 5y ago
    It's a chicken and egg problem. If you grew up very poor and managed to make a lot of money, you likely know that people aren't violent or into crime because they like to do, but likely because they don't have money. The big question is how to make the economic market more inclusive. A lot of people are just out of good options and need to chose which bad affair they can commit to. Crime and violence is for many, a profession. I have friends which end up going to crime and they were very smart and able, the main issue was lack of opportunities and education. When I see some people talking about education as if it's some sort of choice, I gotta make that effort to tell them that it is not a choice, it has never been. It's a privilege. Wake up.
bb101 5y ago
Rohinton Mistry's Swimming Lessons and Other Stories from Firozsha Baag is set in a Parsi community within Mumbai. Fascinating stories that throw a spotlight on their integration, beliefs and everyday lives. Goes without saying, Mistry's A Fine Balance is probably the best book I've ever read. The story still stays with me years later and I look forward to re-reading it at some point. https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3539.Rohinton_Mistry https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3539.Rohinton_Mistry
- notsureaboutpg 5y ago
  A Fine Balance is an excellent book. I second the recommendation. It too features Parsis of Mumbai and the disconnect between them and the poorer laborer class, especially during the Emergency.
sandGorgon 5y ago
Its a weird article. It casts the Indian Parsis as some kind of weird little minority with little power. it couldnt be farther from the truth. The Indian Parsi have had an outsized impact across the world. The Tata Sons Group - one of the world's largest business empires (which incidentally owns Jaguar Land Rover) was created by the Tata Parsi family. Ratan Tata is basically Dale Carnegie and Rockefeller rolled into one. The second largest Godrej group in India is Parsi. Home Bhabha is the father of India's nuclear program. Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw was India's only Field Marshal and probably the most legendary military warrior ever. The controversial political family of India - the Gandhis are a half Parsi family. The world's largest COVID vaccine manufacturer and the backbone of India's COVID effort (as well as the global COVAX program) is the Poonawaala family which runs Serum Institute of India. Zubin Mehta - the world's most famous orchestra conductor is an Indian Parsi. Oh and I nearly forgot.... Freddie Mercury ...yes that Freddie Mercury is a Parsi. His real name is Farrokh Bulsara. This is really amazing when you consider that there are barely a few hundred thousand of them in a country of 1.3 billion people.

229 points by Thevet 5y ago

I am 25% Parsi but didn’t know much of the history. Really interesting.

Zoroastrianism is one of the world's oldest continuously practiced religions, based on the teachings of the Iranian-speaking prophet Zoroaster. In Zoroastrianism, the purpose in life is to become an ashavan (a master of Asha, the life force) and to bring happiness into the world, which contributes to the cosmic battle against evil. Zoroastrianism's core teachings include: Follow the Threefold Path of Asha: Humata, Huxta, Huvarshta (Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds). Charity is a way of maintaining one's soul aligned to Asha and to spread happiness. The spiritual equality and duty of men and women alike. Being good for the sake of goodness and without the hope of reward. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

discreteevent 5y ago
I've been to the fire temple in Yazd and there was an inscription on the wall. I don't remember the details but the main gist of it was about remaining open minded and welcoming new ideas. I'm not sure if this is a core tenet of Zoroastrianism or if it was a local thing but I don't know of another ancient religion with that emphasis.
- db1234 5y ago
  "आ नो भद्राः क्रतवो यन्तु विश्वतः" - Rig Veda. May good thoughts come us from all sides. Full context can be found here https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/36196/context-and-meaning-for-a-rig-veda-mantra https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/36196/context-a...
sydthrowaway 5y ago
There is also a link between Zoroastrianism and the ancient Vedic religion. They probably were the same before a schism led by Zoroaster.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
  > There is also a link between Zoroastrianism and the ancient Vedic religion. There are probably elements in both coming from even more ancient Indo-European religions. I wonder if you could also find similarities with German and Greek deities as well and try to reconstruct a proto-Indo European religion.
  - _dt_ 5y ago
    There's been quite a lot of research into this area, I think its super fascinating. Wikipedia has a good page on it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology) but there's also a many interesting books
    - nextaccountic 5y ago
      Hello, does this include the Sumerian and Babylonian religions? I am asking because Aphrodite can be traced back to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte and then to Ishtar / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Some intriguing elements have been reconstructed. For example, the myths of a primeval, world-nurturing cow from Norse mythology tell us that the cow-worship element in Vedic religion must be ancient indeed.
- KorematsuFred 5y ago
  The most ancient book of India is Rigveda. The first of Vedas. Exact timing is up for debate but could be easily 5000+ years old. I think in one of the early chapters the book describes a war, a war of 10 kings it is called. Leaving the mystical elements aside this war would shape future of India and Persia going forward. The historians I know believe that this war is not pure fiction but rooted in truth. In this war 9 Persian tribes unite to finally destroy the one king on India's western border (modern day Pakistan). All those tribes are named and it turns out all except 2 still exist in modern day Iran. The defeat of Indian king is certain except that Persians make a terrible mistake, they try to cross a shallow river to pursue Indian king and a sudden cloudburst in mountains wipes off majority of the army. Persians see this as Gods favouring Sudas, the Indian King, Indian King Sudas believes this to be the doing of his God Indra. Defeated Persians walk back. It is a long journey and by the time they reach home their numbers are low and moral is broken, one of those tribes would split further to become the modern day Zoroastrianism. World's first monotheistic religion. Technically, Zoroastrianism is at direct conflict with Hinduism and yet both religions have thrived side by side in India and average Hindu has very positive opinion of Parasi people (Zoroastrianism). Examine the language of both religions. In Sanskrit Asura means evil people (demon), in Persian Asura becomes Ahura which means Lord. I have always felt that Parasi and Hindu communities are exceptional example of how religious groups with opposite viewpoints can live next to each other and peacefully.
selimthegrim 5y ago
AFAIK a lot of Armenian church vocabulary is actually Parthian-origin (pre-300s AD) Zoroastrian terms repurposed.
deleted 5y ago
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beebeepka 5y ago
Is there a popular religion that is not completely centered around humans? I find these whole "happiness" and "charity" concepts fake and disturbing. As in good deeds = making other humans happy or whatever. Yah, I am not big on religion.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "Is there a popular religion that is not completely centered around humans?" I don't understand what you mean by "completely centered around humans". Judaism is centered around worship of God, who is not human... but like every other human religion the worshipers themselves are human, so I guess in the sense that it has human worshipers it is "centered around humans".. is that what you mean? "I find these whole "happiness" and "charity" concepts fake and disturbing" Why do you think they're fake? "As in good deeds = making other humans happy or whatever" What's the problem with that?
  - beebeepka 5y ago
    Don't know about Judaism. Best I could manage was about an hour of the old testament. Had to give up after the 1000th WTF moment. What really pissed me was the insistence that god > hebrews > other humans> animals. What utter junk
    - notsureaboutpg 5y ago
      Do you think that all humans and animals are equal? It's obviously untrue by any objective measurement. Even human beings are not equal by any objective measurement. Only through a religious lens is there a concept of equality between human beings. That either through their suffering or service to others do they gain over others who have more status, power, etc. than them. Without that balancing factor, the world is bleak and stratified.
    - Juliate 5y ago
      As for anything that old, there's a huge lot of context (cultural, religious, geographic, contemporary, societal) that informs what was written and all the understandings around it (be it religious or cultural). You're totally in your right to be skeptic. Yet, one hour of your time reading a part of it without introduction or reference may not be how you will gain anything from it (whatever the gain would be, confirmation/deepening/deconstruction of your skepticism).

yazaddaruvala 5y ago

I am both Zoroastrian and Parsi, and while I adore seeing these articles on the top of HN (i.e. on a global stage), I am extremely curious: Who is upvoting these articles about my mostly forgotten culture and why?

virgulino 5y ago
I am, because Also sprach Zarathustra.
- deleted 5y ago
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- hutzlibu 5y ago
  But be aware that Nietzsches Zarathustra has not much in common with the original Zarathustra. Rather the opposite, the original Zarathustra is considered the one, who brought the dualistic thinking of good vs. evil into this world. Nietzsche wanted to get rid of it, to go beyound good and evil, so he lets the creator of this (in his and my opinion) harmful philosophy negate this philosophy.
dpeck 5y ago
I’ve found that many of us who try to stay on the “cutting edge” of new wrt our professions and hobbies also have an interest in history of people and religions and a general interest with things that go back far into history. It’s not a complete overlap by any means, but it isn’t an uncommon pairing to find in people. Interesting archeological news, and things about less well know cultures are often shared and upvoted here as well.
Alex3917 5y ago
> Who is upvoting these articles about my mostly forgotten culture and why? I feel like Zoroastrianism is pretty mainstream, at least in the U.S. Even Obama celebrated Nowruz.
- pmoriarty 5y ago

blackoil 5y ago

Indian religions are interesting topic. It is birthplace of major religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism. Hinduism the most popular religion is unlike any other. Over time it is constantly modified and evolved. While Christianity and islam grew by replacing previous practices, Hinduism stitched all into one. So it has trees, fire, wind deity as well as abstract gods. Popular schools with different thoughts evolved and merged into a unified stream. Sadly recent radicalisation have dented its malleability.

rocknor 5y ago
Hinduism is not really a "religion", as the western term implies. From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism#Definitions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism#Definitions Hinduism includes a diversity of ideas on spirituality and traditions, but has no ecclesiastical order, no unquestionable religious authorities, no governing body, no prophet(s) nor any binding holy book; Hindus can choose to be polytheistic, pantheistic, panentheistic, pandeistic, henotheistic, monotheistic, monistic, agnostic, atheistic or humanist. According to Doniger, "ideas about all the major issues of faith and lifestyle – vegetarianism, nonviolence, belief in rebirth, even caste – are subjects of debate, not dogma. > Sadly recent radicalisation have dented its malleability. Hindutva shouldn't be confused with Hinduism: https://www.asianstudies.org/publications/eaa/archives/on-the-difference-between-hinduism-and-hindutva/ https://www.asianstudies.org/publications/eaa/archives/on-th...
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "Hinduism" is more of an umbrella term for hundreds of different religions, practices, and beliefs. Christianity and Islam also have many, many different sects and varying beliefs, but Hinduism is even more varied.
  - deleted 5y ago
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  - srean 5y ago
    Indeed. The word Hindu does not occur in native literature, its an exonym https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endonym_and_exonym https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endonym_and_exonym If I remember correctly earliest recorded use of the word is in Persian/Zoroastrian text. There it's used not as a name of a religion but as a name for people living on the other side of the Indus river (called Sindhu in Sanskrit)

agency 5y ago

I recently stumbled on another ancient Iranian religion, that of the prophet Mani[1] and had a strong Baader-Meinhoff phenomenon thing where in the next couple of days I read the word “Manichean” used colloquially twice. I guess l it is used to describe a kind of over simplistic good vs. evil dualism. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_(prophet) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_(prophet)

eternalban 5y ago

The Pahlavi kings were Shi'ite Muslims. This article is spinning a revisionist narrative that has a mild whiff of using religion to divide a people. I lived in the Pahlavi Iran, which is certainly missed, but the notion that there was "neo-Zoroastrianism" in the air is news to me. Zoroaster was very simply framed as one of the prophets that the Muslim scripture asserts has been sent to "every nation" by God. Iranians were rather fed (and many actually believe this!) an interesting fable about how Shia Islam is the Iranian version of Islam. And from the 3 major classical Iranian empires and eras, it was not the very assertively Zoroastrian Sassanid empire that was memorialized and used as a vehicle to promote nationalism by Pahlavi Shahs, but rather the Hakhamaneshian (Achaemenid) dynasty. When the late Shah of Iran held his memorial to 2500 years of Iranian kings, he saluted Cyrus the Great, not some zealously Zoroastrian Sassanid Shah. http://irancollection.alborzi.com/2500/index.htm http://irancollection.alborzi.com/2500/index.htm Note the missing "flame". Note, instead, the Cylinder of Ku-Rosh (Cyrus the Great). And Cyrus, unlike his equally great successor Dariush, was rather cagey about his actual religious beliefs. Even in what passes for native "neo-classical" architecture, it was again the Achaemenid era that was front and center. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iranian_Foreign_Affaire_Ministry.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iranian_Foreign_Affaire_M...

danans 5y ago
> This article is spinning a revisionist narrative that has a mild whiff of using religion to divide a people. I think the article fairly represents that it was a complicated situation - with the Pahlavis using Zoroastrianism sourced from India as a tool to fuel Iranian nationalism, i.e.: "At the core of this tension lay the “implicit contradictions between the liberal goals of the Parsis and the more nationalist goals of many Iranians” during the interwar decades of the 1920s and 1930s." Perhaps as a result of the sponsorship of the Pahlavis, nearly every Iranian I've met outside Iran (including many who lived there before 1979) have good understanding of Zoroastrianism's role in Iran's history and culture - and a reason why many people in post-Islamic Iran have liberal values despite living under a theocracy. > Iranians were rather fed (and many actually believe this!) an interesting fable about how Shia Islam is the Iranian version of Islam. Persia had a significant influence on Islam even before the Arab conquest of Persia, evidenced by the Persian loanwords in Arabic [1]. It's hard to imagine how Persian culture wouldn't have had a huge influence on Islam inside Persia itself. 1. https://burjbaabil.com/2014/05/31/persian-loanwords-in-arabic/ https://burjbaabil.com/2014/05/31/persian-loanwords-in-arabi...

pmoriarty 5y ago

This reminds me of an essay I was just reading, "Zoroastrian Survivals in Iranian Folklore"[1], by the eminent religious scholar R. A. Zaehner (who I knew better for his famous debates in the 1960's and 1970's arguing that mystical experiences occasioned by psychedelics weren't true mystical experiences). From the introduction to the paper: "Visitors to the Vatican Museum in Rome will remember that the very first monuments, flanking the entrance to the first room in the vast gallery that leads ultimately to the Sistine Chapel, are neither saints not angels but what appear to be devils: for at each side of the entrance door, guarding it with their baleful presence, stand two most un-Christian deities with the head of a lion and gaping jaws. In both hands they bear keys, a snake encircles their bodies, and the Signs of the Zodiac are impressed on their limbs.[2] Coming face to face with these awesome figures Christians may well recall the words of St. Peter: "Be sober and watch; because your adversary, the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour" (i Pet. 5 . 8 ). The serpent too which envelops the body of the lion-headed deity is all too familiar, and one is tempted to identify it with that selfsame serpent which tempted our first mother, Eve, to eat of the forbidden fruit. Yet, interesting though the Christian parallels may be, we have long known that this rather repulsive deity has nothing to do with the Christian devil, for he figured in a cult that was for long Christianity's most potent rival in the early Roman Empire. This rival religion which has left monuments throughout the length and breadth of the Roman Empire is known as Mithraism, and its roots were originally in Iran; for the god Mithra, from whom the New Persian word mehr, meaning both the "sun" and "affection" derives, was, in the Zoroastrianism of the later Achaemenian Empire, second only to the supreme Deity, Ahura Mazdah himself." The paper concerns a discovery in the 1960's of an incomplete 600,000 word story written during WW2 by a mysterious Iranian by the name of Ali Mirdrekvandi[3], which Zaehner deduced must have been a retelling of ancient Zoroastrian myth and which, Zaehner argued, confirmed his identification of the lion-headed figure (the "Lionish god" in the story) as Ahriman, the false deity and enemy of their true god, Ahura Mazdah (Ohrmazd). [1] - https://archive.org/details/ZaehnerZorSurvivalsFolklore https://archive.org/details/ZaehnerZorSurvivalsFolklore [2] - http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/images/cimrm545.gif http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/images/cimrm545.gi... [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Mirdrekvandi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Mirdrekvandi

aruggirello 5y ago

RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago

What is interesting is Asuras and Devas in Persian and Indian religions. In India the Devas are gods and the Asuras are demons. In Persia, Asuras (called Ahuras) eventually came to become singular Ahura and identified with the supreme God and the Devas became demons. Thus the gods and demons are reversed between India and Persia.

danans 5y ago
Both the cognates Asura/Ahura and Deva/Daeva come from proto Indo European roots describing supernatural or divine beings ("divine" itself is derived from the same root as Deva/Daeva) . The polarization of the two into inimical identities is thought to have happened at some point in antiquity, but it cemented after the Indian Vedic period. During the Vedic period the Asuras weren't all bad - indeed many import demigods of the pantheon are Asuras. They are quite analogous in this way to the Norse Æsir and Vanir, who are not strictly good and evil, and like them often had their conflicts play out on Earth. While some scholars have suggested that the Asura/Deva split must represent an actual schism that took place between the Zoroastrians and the Vedic peoples, it could just as well be the result of cultural drift or the influence of other adjacent cultures.
lazyninja987 5y ago
as the other comment says, asura/deva were not allways hero/villain split. King Bali is the perfect example. Bali was called an asura, but he never did anything wrong. He waged wars with devas, and even when devas pleaded vishnu for defeating him, Vishnu recognized his virtues and agreed to push him to paatala (below earth) using trick instead of killing him. King Prahlad is also another example, he is born to an asura father, but is worshipped as deva. His cousins/sons were again be treated as asuras. Deva/Asura is calibrated to the speaker. as BBC once said, one man's hero is other man's villain.

virgulino 5y ago

There is a good episode of the BBC podcast "In Our Time" on the history and philosophy of Zoroastrianism: "How was the religion established in Ancient Persia, what is its body of beliefs and how have they been developed and disseminated? With Vesta Sarkhosh Curtis, Curator of Ancient Iranian Coins in the Department of Coins and Medals at the British Museum; Farrokh Vajifdar, Fellow of the Royal Asiatic Society; Alan Williams, Senior Lecturer in Comparative Religion at the University of Manchester." https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p005bc5v https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p005bc5v

loteck 5y ago

By the by, I hadn't heard of Zoroastrianism until I read Peck's A Short Stay In Hell, where the main character finds out (at the beginning) that Zoroastrianism was the one true and correct religion. It's a quick read, I'd recommend it. [0] https://bookshop.org/books/a-short-stay-in-hell/9780983748427 https://bookshop.org/books/a-short-stay-in-hell/978098374842...

skhr0680 5y ago

Zoroastrianism is the reason Mazda is spelled the way it is instead of Matsuda

occamschainsaw 5y ago

I find the anecdote(?) of how the first Parsi refugees convinced the ruler of the port city of Surat to let them immigrate wholesome. The ruler summoned the Parsi representatives to his court. When asked how would they assimilate in the local society, the Parsis asked for some sugar and milk. They mixed it in front of the ruler and said that this is how they will assimilate, not changing the society but making it sweeter. Even today the Parsi dialect of the Gujarati language is polite and sweet.

cputester 5y ago
Sanjan, not Surat. This story is unsubstantiated nonsense, and there is little to no evidence that the Parsis were originally refugees. Archaeological expeditions were already done in Sanjan, you can look up the results. > That the Zoroastrian migrants to Sanjan were basically a mercantile group is borne out by records as well as by excavated material. Andre Wink goes further and adds that the migration was not so much due to religious persecution as much as ‘a readjustment of commercial patterns which had arisen long before Islam, and, to an extent at least, a response to new opportunities in the transit trade between the Islamic world and al-Hind’ THE LANDING OF THE ZOROASTRIANS AT SANJAN The archaeological evidence - Rukshana Nanji and Homi Dhalla
unmole 5y ago
There's an additional detail in the apocryphal story. The king and the Parsis didn't have a language in common. The king was reluctant to allow them to settle. To communicate this, he dops a few pebbles into a container full of milk which promptly overflows. The implication being that the kingdom was full. The Parsis then mix sugar into the milk implying they would assimilate.

sharadov 5y ago

While growing up in India I knew some Parsi families - they are good at business, ethical and charitable. The Tata Group in India founded by Parsis , a 150 year old business conglomerate- is well respected and known for their philanthropy.

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mboto 5y ago

Freddie Mercury was also of Parsi origin[0], with both of his parents practicing Zoroastrianism. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury#Early_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Mercury#Early_life

truth_ 5y ago

Indian Parsis are the "model minority" of India. They are rich, educated, charitable, and polite. Extremely low to non-existent crime rates. They serve in the armed forces, active in academia and commerce. They are also quite highly involved in Bollywood.

ElViajero 5y ago
That is interesting because one characteristic feeds the other. The more rich and educated the more polite and lower rates of crime. The lower rates of crime the more prosper a society is. That is why it is so important to help people to get out of cycles of violence and crime.
- chakkepolja 5y ago
  It's also the result of culture. Some groups just value education more than others.
  - rocknor 5y ago
    BS, as if culture is something that is constant and does not evolve. It's more like a feedback loop. Culture influences results and results influence culture. Tip it the wrong way and it's hard to get out of a negative feedback loop.
- thiago_fm 5y ago
  It's a chicken and egg problem. If you grew up very poor and managed to make a lot of money, you likely know that people aren't violent or into crime because they like to do, but likely because they don't have money. The big question is how to make the economic market more inclusive. A lot of people are just out of good options and need to chose which bad affair they can commit to. Crime and violence is for many, a profession. I have friends which end up going to crime and they were very smart and able, the main issue was lack of opportunities and education. When I see some people talking about education as if it's some sort of choice, I gotta make that effort to tell them that it is not a choice, it has never been. It's a privilege. Wake up.

bb101 5y ago

Rohinton Mistry's Swimming Lessons and Other Stories from Firozsha Baag is set in a Parsi community within Mumbai. Fascinating stories that throw a spotlight on their integration, beliefs and everyday lives. Goes without saying, Mistry's A Fine Balance is probably the best book I've ever read. The story still stays with me years later and I look forward to re-reading it at some point. https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3539.Rohinton_Mistry https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3539.Rohinton_Mistry

notsureaboutpg 5y ago
A Fine Balance is an excellent book. I second the recommendation. It too features Parsis of Mumbai and the disconnect between them and the poorer laborer class, especially during the Emergency.

sandGorgon 5y ago

Its a weird article. It casts the Indian Parsis as some kind of weird little minority with little power. it couldnt be farther from the truth. The Indian Parsi have had an outsized impact across the world. The Tata Sons Group - one of the world's largest business empires (which incidentally owns Jaguar Land Rover) was created by the Tata Parsi family. Ratan Tata is basically Dale Carnegie and Rockefeller rolled into one. The second largest Godrej group in India is Parsi. Home Bhabha is the father of India's nuclear program. Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw was India's only Field Marshal and probably the most legendary military warrior ever. The controversial political family of India - the Gandhis are a half Parsi family. The world's largest COVID vaccine manufacturer and the backbone of India's COVID effort (as well as the global COVAX program) is the Poonawaala family which runs Serum Institute of India. Zubin Mehta - the world's most famous orchestra conductor is an Indian Parsi. Oh and I nearly forgot.... Freddie Mercury ...yes that Freddie Mercury is a Parsi. His real name is Farrokh Bulsara. This is really amazing when you consider that there are barely a few hundred thousand of them in a country of 1.3 billion people.