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I think a lot of people on the 100% remote side of the debate are heavily underestimating the value of relationship building and team cohesion (for most people)

I think a lot of people on the 100% remote side of the debate are heavily underestimating the value of relationship building and team cohesion (for most people). You can't replace the frequent face to face social interactions, lunches, and drinks after work with a Zoom call. We are social animals and the more channels there are in an interaction (words, voice, body language, etc...) the richer that interaction is, and the more we get out of it. A likely counter to this will be "well I don't care about those things", ok, that's fine, but that is not true for everybody.

luffapi 5y ago
I think the counter is to use your new found freedom wfh to get real non-commercial social interaction. With friends, family, neighbors… You’re at the mercy of your employer in more ways than one if you rely on them for such a core human need.
- marcinzm 5y ago
  No one said your co-workers must or should be your only social connections. Simply that it helps if they are A social connection. You're still going to deal with your co-workers eight hours a day. Dealing with people who think of you as a friend is a lot easier than with people who don't.
  - luffapi 5y ago
    I want to deal with my co-workers as professionals, definitely not as friends. They are not my friends, I’m paid to work with them. Companies are more productive when you remove social drama, not less.
    - marcinzm 5y ago
      There's always social drama because humans are social creatures and not machines. Hiding your head in the sand doesn't make it go away but merely means you're at it's whims with no influence on it. The difference is that if you're viewed as a friend other people first give you the benefit of the doubt since they assume you had good intentions. If you're not they don't and then things can escalate very quickly and not in your favor.
      - luffapi 5y ago
        It sounds like you’ve worked under terrible management if you’re having these problems. On a properly run team people don’t squabble and politic. It is possible to work in a healthy manner, remote or otherwise. The drama you avoid when remote stems from not being forced to co-locate with individuals for a large swath of your waking hours. That is a breeding ground for unhealthy behavior.
        marcinzm 5y ago
        I have yet to see a non-tiny company that doesn't have political squabbles cross-team and especially cross-department. It's the nature of many groups competing for finite resources and diverging goals. I have however seen many engineers be utterly obvious to the politics going on and getting burned by it in the end.
        luffapi 5y ago
        The politics are greatly reduced when everyone is remote. No “in group” lunches or beers after work… There are entire categories of drama that wfh eliminates.
        disgruntledphd2 5y ago
        It doesn't eliminate them, it just hides them from you.
        luffapi 5y ago
        No it eliminates them. In office drinking, office romances, listening to petty personal problems… all completely vaporized in wfh.
        disgruntledphd2 5y ago
        You're just not on those Zoom calls. Presumably the office romances/drinking sessions are gone, but politics continues unabated. Perhaps this is fine for you, but I want to point out to others that just because you don't see this happening anymore, doesn't mean that it has actually stopped happening.
    - forz877 5y ago
      This is utopia. Human beings are competitive and social, and to achieve your goals you need more than professionals sometimes- you need friends.
      - luffapi 5y ago
        It’s unprofessional to suggest that you can only be productive if you are surrounded with friends. I will happily produce with a team made up of people I would never socialize with. It happens all the time as none of my real friends even know how to code. Not once has this impacted my performance.
    - mlang23 5y ago
      friendship /= drama Please never hire at a company near me, thank you
      - luffapi 5y ago
        I wouldn’t hire you based on your comments in this thread alone.
- bootlooped 5y ago
  Firstly, the context of what I wrote was building trust and team cohesion within the organization. I don't think having or not having friends and family is relevant to that. Secondly, we spend a lot of our finite lives working, do you want that part of your life to be cold and robotic? Wouldn't life be richer with a wide range of human relationships?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ryder9 5y ago
    > we spend a lot of our finite lives working if you want to dedicate most of your life just to work, you can go ahead and do that
  - luffapi 5y ago
    WFH fosters far more trust than “I must see my underlings churning away to be comfortable”, which is currently the driving force for those trying to return to the previous norm. Every contractor will tell you that you can be far more productive than normal employees because you don’t get quagmired in silly social drama. Look at open source software, it is absolutely possible to create great software without even knowing the other team members. This whole concept that reproducing high school in a professional setting adds to productivity is entirely unfounded.
spookthesunset 5y ago
Agree with this assessment. I don’t care what anybody says, zoom and slack cannot replace sitting next to your teammmates.
beej71 5y ago
Lots of different valid opinions, here. I've worked about half my career remote. In terms of team cohesion, socialization, and communication, I've seen remote outperform in-person and vice-versa.
metalcore 5y ago
"Team cohesion" can work against you if you don't fit (which can be caused by a large variety of reasons). So maybe people estimate it very well, and calculate that less interaction is better.
ilaksh 5y ago
Can't you have multiple Zoom calls with some one-on-one rather than a single Zoom call? Do you have good internet? If not, upgrading it might improve the video signal. What about something like Discord with voice setup so you can literally chat every five minutes if you want? Could you not use one of the VR programs on Oculus Quest that create virtual meeting rooms like Spatial? What about playing a game together once a week online? Could be something that requires a ton of cooperation like Rainbow Six. I'm not saying that real lunches or whatever are not great and a step up in bandwidth, but I feel like if you really take advantage of all of the possibilities then you can still have social opportunities online that can build real cohesion. Which I think you are not really trying.

luffapi 5y ago

I think the counter is to use your new found freedom wfh to get real non-commercial social interaction. With friends, family, neighbors… You’re at the mercy of your employer in more ways than one if you rely on them for such a core human need.

marcinzm 5y ago
No one said your co-workers must or should be your only social connections. Simply that it helps if they are A social connection. You're still going to deal with your co-workers eight hours a day. Dealing with people who think of you as a friend is a lot easier than with people who don't.
- luffapi 5y ago
  I want to deal with my co-workers as professionals, definitely not as friends. They are not my friends, I’m paid to work with them. Companies are more productive when you remove social drama, not less.
  - marcinzm 5y ago
    There's always social drama because humans are social creatures and not machines. Hiding your head in the sand doesn't make it go away but merely means you're at it's whims with no influence on it. The difference is that if you're viewed as a friend other people first give you the benefit of the doubt since they assume you had good intentions. If you're not they don't and then things can escalate very quickly and not in your favor.
    - luffapi 5y ago
      It sounds like you’ve worked under terrible management if you’re having these problems. On a properly run team people don’t squabble and politic. It is possible to work in a healthy manner, remote or otherwise. The drama you avoid when remote stems from not being forced to co-locate with individuals for a large swath of your waking hours. That is a breeding ground for unhealthy behavior.
      - marcinzm 5y ago
        I have yet to see a non-tiny company that doesn't have political squabbles cross-team and especially cross-department. It's the nature of many groups competing for finite resources and diverging goals. I have however seen many engineers be utterly obvious to the politics going on and getting burned by it in the end.
        luffapi 5y ago
        The politics are greatly reduced when everyone is remote. No “in group” lunches or beers after work… There are entire categories of drama that wfh eliminates.
        disgruntledphd2 5y ago
        It doesn't eliminate them, it just hides them from you.
        luffapi 5y ago
        No it eliminates them. In office drinking, office romances, listening to petty personal problems… all completely vaporized in wfh.
        disgruntledphd2 5y ago
        You're just not on those Zoom calls. Presumably the office romances/drinking sessions are gone, but politics continues unabated. Perhaps this is fine for you, but I want to point out to others that just because you don't see this happening anymore, doesn't mean that it has actually stopped happening.
  - forz877 5y ago
    This is utopia. Human beings are competitive and social, and to achieve your goals you need more than professionals sometimes- you need friends.
    - luffapi 5y ago
      It’s unprofessional to suggest that you can only be productive if you are surrounded with friends. I will happily produce with a team made up of people I would never socialize with. It happens all the time as none of my real friends even know how to code. Not once has this impacted my performance.
  - mlang23 5y ago
    friendship /= drama Please never hire at a company near me, thank you
    - luffapi 5y ago
      I wouldn’t hire you based on your comments in this thread alone.
bootlooped 5y ago
Firstly, the context of what I wrote was building trust and team cohesion within the organization. I don't think having or not having friends and family is relevant to that. Secondly, we spend a lot of our finite lives working, do you want that part of your life to be cold and robotic? Wouldn't life be richer with a wide range of human relationships?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ryder9 5y ago
  > we spend a lot of our finite lives working if you want to dedicate most of your life just to work, you can go ahead and do that
- luffapi 5y ago
  WFH fosters far more trust than “I must see my underlings churning away to be comfortable”, which is currently the driving force for those trying to return to the previous norm. Every contractor will tell you that you can be far more productive than normal employees because you don’t get quagmired in silly social drama. Look at open source software, it is absolutely possible to create great software without even knowing the other team members. This whole concept that reproducing high school in a professional setting adds to productivity is entirely unfounded.

spookthesunset 5y ago

Agree with this assessment. I don’t care what anybody says, zoom and slack cannot replace sitting next to your teammmates.

beej71 5y ago

Lots of different valid opinions, here. I've worked about half my career remote. In terms of team cohesion, socialization, and communication, I've seen remote outperform in-person and vice-versa.

metalcore 5y ago

"Team cohesion" can work against you if you don't fit (which can be caused by a large variety of reasons). So maybe people estimate it very well, and calculate that less interaction is better.

ilaksh 5y ago

Can't you have multiple Zoom calls with some one-on-one rather than a single Zoom call? Do you have good internet? If not, upgrading it might improve the video signal. What about something like Discord with voice setup so you can literally chat every five minutes if you want? Could you not use one of the VR programs on Oculus Quest that create virtual meeting rooms like Spatial? What about playing a game together once a week online? Could be something that requires a ton of cooperation like Rainbow Six. I'm not saying that real lunches or whatever are not great and a step up in bandwidth, but I feel like if you really take advantage of all of the possibilities then you can still have social opportunities online that can build real cohesion. Which I think you are not really trying.