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Being the only one talking to the VPs and CEO in the office during lunch is probably going to be a great career boost. So don't be surprised when the people who

Being the only one talking to the VPs and CEO in the office during lunch is probably going to be a great career boost. So don't be surprised when the people who go into the office get the nice promotions and you don't. Interestingly my whole team is very much in favor of being in the office a few days a week.

xvector 5y ago
Most promotions happen by moving jobs anyways, so eh.
- marcinzm 5y ago
  And the best jobs go to personal referrals from those who are trusted. Which is easier if the VP you used to work with is vouching for you than if they don't know you.
bootlooped 5y ago
I think a lot of people on the 100% remote side of the debate are heavily underestimating the value of relationship building and team cohesion (for most people). You can't replace the frequent face to face social interactions, lunches, and drinks after work with a Zoom call. We are social animals and the more channels there are in an interaction (words, voice, body language, etc...) the richer that interaction is, and the more we get out of it. A likely counter to this will be "well I don't care about those things", ok, that's fine, but that is not true for everybody.
- luffapi 5y ago
  I think the counter is to use your new found freedom wfh to get real non-commercial social interaction. With friends, family, neighbors… You’re at the mercy of your employer in more ways than one if you rely on them for such a core human need.
  - marcinzm 5y ago
    No one said your co-workers must or should be your only social connections. Simply that it helps if they are A social connection. You're still going to deal with your co-workers eight hours a day. Dealing with people who think of you as a friend is a lot easier than with people who don't.
    - luffapi 5y ago
      I want to deal with my co-workers as professionals, definitely not as friends. They are not my friends, I’m paid to work with them. Companies are more productive when you remove social drama, not less.
      - marcinzm 5y ago
        There's always social drama because humans are social creatures and not machines. Hiding your head in the sand doesn't make it go away but merely means you're at it's whims with no influence on it. The difference is that if you're viewed as a friend other people first give you the benefit of the doubt since they assume you had good intentions. If you're not they don't and then things can escalate very quickly and not in your favor.
        luffapi 5y ago
        It sounds like you’ve worked under terrible management if you’re having these problems. On a properly run team people don’t squabble and politic. It is possible to work in a healthy manner, remote or otherwise. The drama you avoid when remote stems from not being forced to co-locate with individuals for a large swath of your waking hours. That is a breeding ground for unhealthy behavior.
        marcinzm 5y ago
        I have yet to see a non-tiny company that doesn't have political squabbles cross-team and especially cross-department. It's the nature of many groups competing for finite resources and diverging goals. I have however seen many engineers be utterly obvious to the politics going on and getting burned by it in the end.
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  Agree with this assessment. I don’t care what anybody says, zoom and slack cannot replace sitting next to your teammmates.
- beej71 5y ago
  Lots of different valid opinions, here. I've worked about half my career remote. In terms of team cohesion, socialization, and communication, I've seen remote outperform in-person and vice-versa.
- metalcore 5y ago
  "Team cohesion" can work against you if you don't fit (which can be caused by a large variety of reasons). So maybe people estimate it very well, and calculate that less interaction is better.
- ilaksh 5y ago
  Can't you have multiple Zoom calls with some one-on-one rather than a single Zoom call? Do you have good internet? If not, upgrading it might improve the video signal. What about something like Discord with voice setup so you can literally chat every five minutes if you want? Could you not use one of the VR programs on Oculus Quest that create virtual meeting rooms like Spatial? What about playing a game together once a week online? Could be something that requires a ton of cooperation like Rainbow Six. I'm not saying that real lunches or whatever are not great and a step up in bandwidth, but I feel like if you really take advantage of all of the possibilities then you can still have social opportunities online that can build real cohesion. Which I think you are not really trying.
halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
Because in most companies, you're having lunch with VPs and CEOs regularly? I've only worked at one company where I regularly saw anybody at the VP level and up on a regular basis. Unless you're working at a small company, this example just doesn't have any basis in reality.
- marcinzm 5y ago
  I was poking fun at them saying no one will be in the office by pointing out that if you're literally the only non-manager in the office then you've got some advantages.
irrational 5y ago
Where do you work that the C-level people eat in the same place as the office workers? I’ve worked at a Fortune 500 company for 20 years and I’ve never so much as seen a C-level person, even though we all work on the same campus. They have separate parking garages, separate buildings, separate fitness facilities, separate eating facilities, etc.
mech422 5y ago
I know your comment was tongue-in-cheek, but some seem to believe this. From what I've seen, its a losing game. You can kiss all the ass you want, socialize whatever. But when there is an opening in companies like that, it seems like the boss's son-in-law/college crony/etc. always gets the job..

xvector 5y ago

Most promotions happen by moving jobs anyways, so eh.

marcinzm 5y ago
And the best jobs go to personal referrals from those who are trusted. Which is easier if the VP you used to work with is vouching for you than if they don't know you.

bootlooped 5y ago

I think a lot of people on the 100% remote side of the debate are heavily underestimating the value of relationship building and team cohesion (for most people). You can't replace the frequent face to face social interactions, lunches, and drinks after work with a Zoom call. We are social animals and the more channels there are in an interaction (words, voice, body language, etc...) the richer that interaction is, and the more we get out of it. A likely counter to this will be "well I don't care about those things", ok, that's fine, but that is not true for everybody.

luffapi 5y ago
I think the counter is to use your new found freedom wfh to get real non-commercial social interaction. With friends, family, neighbors… You’re at the mercy of your employer in more ways than one if you rely on them for such a core human need.
- marcinzm 5y ago
  No one said your co-workers must or should be your only social connections. Simply that it helps if they are A social connection. You're still going to deal with your co-workers eight hours a day. Dealing with people who think of you as a friend is a lot easier than with people who don't.
  - luffapi 5y ago
    I want to deal with my co-workers as professionals, definitely not as friends. They are not my friends, I’m paid to work with them. Companies are more productive when you remove social drama, not less.
    - marcinzm 5y ago
      There's always social drama because humans are social creatures and not machines. Hiding your head in the sand doesn't make it go away but merely means you're at it's whims with no influence on it. The difference is that if you're viewed as a friend other people first give you the benefit of the doubt since they assume you had good intentions. If you're not they don't and then things can escalate very quickly and not in your favor.
      - luffapi 5y ago
        It sounds like you’ve worked under terrible management if you’re having these problems. On a properly run team people don’t squabble and politic. It is possible to work in a healthy manner, remote or otherwise. The drama you avoid when remote stems from not being forced to co-locate with individuals for a large swath of your waking hours. That is a breeding ground for unhealthy behavior.
        marcinzm 5y ago
        I have yet to see a non-tiny company that doesn't have political squabbles cross-team and especially cross-department. It's the nature of many groups competing for finite resources and diverging goals. I have however seen many engineers be utterly obvious to the politics going on and getting burned by it in the end.
spookthesunset 5y ago
Agree with this assessment. I don’t care what anybody says, zoom and slack cannot replace sitting next to your teammmates.
beej71 5y ago
Lots of different valid opinions, here. I've worked about half my career remote. In terms of team cohesion, socialization, and communication, I've seen remote outperform in-person and vice-versa.
metalcore 5y ago
"Team cohesion" can work against you if you don't fit (which can be caused by a large variety of reasons). So maybe people estimate it very well, and calculate that less interaction is better.
ilaksh 5y ago
Can't you have multiple Zoom calls with some one-on-one rather than a single Zoom call? Do you have good internet? If not, upgrading it might improve the video signal. What about something like Discord with voice setup so you can literally chat every five minutes if you want? Could you not use one of the VR programs on Oculus Quest that create virtual meeting rooms like Spatial? What about playing a game together once a week online? Could be something that requires a ton of cooperation like Rainbow Six. I'm not saying that real lunches or whatever are not great and a step up in bandwidth, but I feel like if you really take advantage of all of the possibilities then you can still have social opportunities online that can build real cohesion. Which I think you are not really trying.

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago

Because in most companies, you're having lunch with VPs and CEOs regularly? I've only worked at one company where I regularly saw anybody at the VP level and up on a regular basis. Unless you're working at a small company, this example just doesn't have any basis in reality.

marcinzm 5y ago
I was poking fun at them saying no one will be in the office by pointing out that if you're literally the only non-manager in the office then you've got some advantages.

irrational 5y ago

Where do you work that the C-level people eat in the same place as the office workers? I’ve worked at a Fortune 500 company for 20 years and I’ve never so much as seen a C-level person, even though we all work on the same campus. They have separate parking garages, separate buildings, separate fitness facilities, separate eating facilities, etc.

mech422 5y ago

I know your comment was tongue-in-cheek, but some seem to believe this. From what I've seen, its a losing game. You can kiss all the ass you want, socialize whatever. But when there is an opening in companies like that, it seems like the boss's son-in-law/college crony/etc. always gets the job..