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I cant wait until I can go back to the office 100%. WFH, while convenient, is something I never wanted. I didnt want it 20 years ago when I started to work, a

I cant wait until I can go back to the office 100%. WFH, while convenient, is something I never wanted. I didnt want it 20 years ago when I started to work, and I dont want it full time today either, even with the covid experience. Human interaction is not tradable, and online conferencing sucks even more then a real meeting.

brabel 5y ago
Good for you. Just don't be surprised if you're the only one at the office when you get there, though. You might need to find human interaction outside work.
- marcinzm 5y ago
  Being the only one talking to the VPs and CEO in the office during lunch is probably going to be a great career boost. So don't be surprised when the people who go into the office get the nice promotions and you don't. Interestingly my whole team is very much in favor of being in the office a few days a week.
  - xvector 5y ago
    Most promotions happen by moving jobs anyways, so eh.
    - marcinzm 5y ago
      And the best jobs go to personal referrals from those who are trusted. Which is easier if the VP you used to work with is vouching for you than if they don't know you.
  - bootlooped 5y ago
    I think a lot of people on the 100% remote side of the debate are heavily underestimating the value of relationship building and team cohesion (for most people). You can't replace the frequent face to face social interactions, lunches, and drinks after work with a Zoom call. We are social animals and the more channels there are in an interaction (words, voice, body language, etc...) the richer that interaction is, and the more we get out of it. A likely counter to this will be "well I don't care about those things", ok, that's fine, but that is not true for everybody.
    - luffapi 5y ago
      I think the counter is to use your new found freedom wfh to get real non-commercial social interaction. With friends, family, neighbors… You’re at the mercy of your employer in more ways than one if you rely on them for such a core human need.
      - marcinzm 5y ago
        No one said your co-workers must or should be your only social connections. Simply that it helps if they are A social connection. You're still going to deal with your co-workers eight hours a day. Dealing with people who think of you as a friend is a lot easier than with people who don't.
        luffapi 5y ago
        I want to deal with my co-workers as professionals, definitely not as friends. They are not my friends, I’m paid to work with them. Companies are more productive when you remove social drama, not less.
        marcinzm 5y ago
        There's always social drama because humans are social creatures and not machines. Hiding your head in the sand doesn't make it go away but merely means you're at it's whims with no influence on it. The difference is that if you're viewed as a friend other people first give you the benefit of the doubt since they assume you had good intentions. If you're not they don't and then things can escalate very quickly and not in your favor.
        luffapi 5y ago
        It sounds like you’ve worked under terrible management if you’re having these problems. On a properly run team people don’t squabble and politic. It is possible to work in a healthy manner, remote or otherwise. The drama you avoid when remote stems from not being forced to co-locate with individuals for a large swath of your waking hours. That is a breeding ground for unhealthy behavior.
  - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
    Because in most companies, you're having lunch with VPs and CEOs regularly? I've only worked at one company where I regularly saw anybody at the VP level and up on a regular basis. Unless you're working at a small company, this example just doesn't have any basis in reality.
    - marcinzm 5y ago
      I was poking fun at them saying no one will be in the office by pointing out that if you're literally the only non-manager in the office then you've got some advantages.
  - irrational 5y ago
    Where do you work that the C-level people eat in the same place as the office workers? I’ve worked at a Fortune 500 company for 20 years and I’ve never so much as seen a C-level person, even though we all work on the same campus. They have separate parking garages, separate buildings, separate fitness facilities, separate eating facilities, etc.
  - mech422 5y ago
    I know your comment was tongue-in-cheek, but some seem to believe this. From what I've seen, its a losing game. You can kiss all the ass you want, socialize whatever. But when there is an opening in companies like that, it seems like the boss's son-in-law/college crony/etc. always gets the job..
- runawaybottle 5y ago
  Right? Hey bro, I really don’t need to interact with you. You think I give a shit about your need for human interaction when you’re making me commute daily and pretend to fake work half the time at a desk. Fuck that, go to a bar, I don’t need friends.
- mlang23 5y ago
  Where I live, people are apparently not a chicken as where you live... Most of my coworkers are happy to go back to the office. I guess we have about 10% which would like to have full WHF. OTOH, I also dont care what the majority wants. What counts to me is what I want.
  - _dibly 5y ago
    Yeah, something tells me the fact that your coworkers are more excited to be back in person doesn't have anything to do with how brave you all are. Maybe consider that are other reasons besides fear for why people prefer to work in an environment that is productive for them?
    - mlang23 5y ago
      So far, I only know: * Doesnt want to go back to work because of fear of infection * Wants to go back to work because she cant stand the kids and her husband anymore I havent heard any other stories so far. Maybe because I am not allowed to stay very long at the office...
b3morales 5y ago
That's fine! (I've said this in another similar thread recently:) The push here (to the extent that it's organized) should not be "abolish offices, everyone is remote". It should be "trust people to choose the environment where they work best". If you like the office, then you should be able to choose a company that has an office for you to work in. I personally work remotely and find it suits me. But I wouldn't mind working in a hybrid situation either, where being in the office was occasional/available.
- tolbish 5y ago
  The problem is that the "I like the office and everyone else should too because it legitimizes and popularizes my choices" crowd will never say that out loud so you don't know which arguments are in earnest.
  - crummy 5y ago
    Well, probably a lot of "I like the office" implies "... because I like being around my coworkers" and that obviously falls apart if you're the only one.
    - 1shooner 5y ago
      And if the feeling wasn't reciprocated, maybe that's for the best.
- gpm 5y ago
  > then you should be able to choose a company that has an office for you to work in This is the key part though, this isn't an individual choice, it's a company (or at least team) one. If the rest of your team is in the office, and you aren't, then you aren't going to be "in the loop" and you aren't going to be an effective engineer. If the rest of your team is not in the office, and you are, well, at that point it's not really different from a coworking space. The advantages of in person communication simply don't exist. So... expect teams changing from/to in office to be painful, people who disagree are going to have to choose over leaving or sucking it up, and that's not a nice choice to be making. Unfortunately this is somewhat viral between teams too, because your manager is effectively on the "manager team" as well as the local team, and people do move around between team... Moreover there will be plenty of times were you want to work for company X for reasons unrelated to whether or not they work from an office, you like the company mission, the technology, etc. As a result even once things settle down you can't expect everyone to be happy with the office/no-office/partial-office choice that is made...
deleted 5y ago
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rmetzler 5y ago
I would go back to office if my commute was like 20 minutes by bike and I would share a small office with one to three other people on my team. But my commute is 1 hour one way, some people don’t get seats on the train, U-Bahn in Berlin is like a can of sardines during rush hour and the bigger part of my team is in another country and the customer is at the other side of Germany. And the office is one big open office with ~40 people working. You need noise canceling headphones to keep your sanity. I couldn’t focus without them. I‘m glad they don’t want to force us to come back.
- mlang23 5y ago
  My commute is a 5 minute walk. And thats no accident. I very deliberately chose my flat to be quite near to work. Has saved me about 5000 hours of commute time so far.
  - chillel 5y ago
    I love how that's an obvious option for everyone else too! /s
    - grecy 5y ago
      I have a hard rule on myself - if the commute is more than about 20-30 minutes or particularly unpleasant, I must change jobs or move house. Life is too short to spend such a huge part of it in a commute you don't enjoy.
      - sologoub 5y ago
        For those starting out in SV now, that’s usually a choice of giving up a great job or paying super expensive rent/putting all your savings in a house or packing in with roommates.
        grecy 5y ago
        Yes, exactly.
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irrational 5y ago
We need some way to support both preferences. I’ve also been working professionally for more than 20 years and I absolutely hate working in an office. This past year working from home has done more to improve my mental health than I could possibly imagine. Just the thought of having to work in an office again makes me sick. But I can also understand that there are people like you. I don’t really understand why you feel that way, but I don’t really need to as long as accommodations are made for both people like me and people like you.
radicalriddler 5y ago
We online conference for our meetings anyway, so mine as well do it from the comfort of our homes.

brabel 5y ago

Good for you. Just don't be surprised if you're the only one at the office when you get there, though. You might need to find human interaction outside work.

marcinzm 5y ago
Being the only one talking to the VPs and CEO in the office during lunch is probably going to be a great career boost. So don't be surprised when the people who go into the office get the nice promotions and you don't. Interestingly my whole team is very much in favor of being in the office a few days a week.
- xvector 5y ago
  Most promotions happen by moving jobs anyways, so eh.
  - marcinzm 5y ago
    And the best jobs go to personal referrals from those who are trusted. Which is easier if the VP you used to work with is vouching for you than if they don't know you.
- bootlooped 5y ago
  I think a lot of people on the 100% remote side of the debate are heavily underestimating the value of relationship building and team cohesion (for most people). You can't replace the frequent face to face social interactions, lunches, and drinks after work with a Zoom call. We are social animals and the more channels there are in an interaction (words, voice, body language, etc...) the richer that interaction is, and the more we get out of it. A likely counter to this will be "well I don't care about those things", ok, that's fine, but that is not true for everybody.
  - luffapi 5y ago
    I think the counter is to use your new found freedom wfh to get real non-commercial social interaction. With friends, family, neighbors… You’re at the mercy of your employer in more ways than one if you rely on them for such a core human need.
    - marcinzm 5y ago
      No one said your co-workers must or should be your only social connections. Simply that it helps if they are A social connection. You're still going to deal with your co-workers eight hours a day. Dealing with people who think of you as a friend is a lot easier than with people who don't.
      - luffapi 5y ago
        I want to deal with my co-workers as professionals, definitely not as friends. They are not my friends, I’m paid to work with them. Companies are more productive when you remove social drama, not less.
        marcinzm 5y ago
        There's always social drama because humans are social creatures and not machines. Hiding your head in the sand doesn't make it go away but merely means you're at it's whims with no influence on it. The difference is that if you're viewed as a friend other people first give you the benefit of the doubt since they assume you had good intentions. If you're not they don't and then things can escalate very quickly and not in your favor.
        luffapi 5y ago
        It sounds like you’ve worked under terrible management if you’re having these problems. On a properly run team people don’t squabble and politic. It is possible to work in a healthy manner, remote or otherwise. The drama you avoid when remote stems from not being forced to co-locate with individuals for a large swath of your waking hours. That is a breeding ground for unhealthy behavior.
- halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
  Because in most companies, you're having lunch with VPs and CEOs regularly? I've only worked at one company where I regularly saw anybody at the VP level and up on a regular basis. Unless you're working at a small company, this example just doesn't have any basis in reality.
  - marcinzm 5y ago
    I was poking fun at them saying no one will be in the office by pointing out that if you're literally the only non-manager in the office then you've got some advantages.
- irrational 5y ago
  Where do you work that the C-level people eat in the same place as the office workers? I’ve worked at a Fortune 500 company for 20 years and I’ve never so much as seen a C-level person, even though we all work on the same campus. They have separate parking garages, separate buildings, separate fitness facilities, separate eating facilities, etc.
- mech422 5y ago
  I know your comment was tongue-in-cheek, but some seem to believe this. From what I've seen, its a losing game. You can kiss all the ass you want, socialize whatever. But when there is an opening in companies like that, it seems like the boss's son-in-law/college crony/etc. always gets the job..
runawaybottle 5y ago
Right? Hey bro, I really don’t need to interact with you. You think I give a shit about your need for human interaction when you’re making me commute daily and pretend to fake work half the time at a desk. Fuck that, go to a bar, I don’t need friends.
mlang23 5y ago
Where I live, people are apparently not a chicken as where you live... Most of my coworkers are happy to go back to the office. I guess we have about 10% which would like to have full WHF. OTOH, I also dont care what the majority wants. What counts to me is what I want.
- _dibly 5y ago
  Yeah, something tells me the fact that your coworkers are more excited to be back in person doesn't have anything to do with how brave you all are. Maybe consider that are other reasons besides fear for why people prefer to work in an environment that is productive for them?
  - mlang23 5y ago
    So far, I only know: * Doesnt want to go back to work because of fear of infection * Wants to go back to work because she cant stand the kids and her husband anymore I havent heard any other stories so far. Maybe because I am not allowed to stay very long at the office...

b3morales 5y ago

That's fine! (I've said this in another similar thread recently:) The push here (to the extent that it's organized) should not be "abolish offices, everyone is remote". It should be "trust people to choose the environment where they work best". If you like the office, then you should be able to choose a company that has an office for you to work in. I personally work remotely and find it suits me. But I wouldn't mind working in a hybrid situation either, where being in the office was occasional/available.

tolbish 5y ago
The problem is that the "I like the office and everyone else should too because it legitimizes and popularizes my choices" crowd will never say that out loud so you don't know which arguments are in earnest.
- crummy 5y ago
  Well, probably a lot of "I like the office" implies "... because I like being around my coworkers" and that obviously falls apart if you're the only one.
  - 1shooner 5y ago
    And if the feeling wasn't reciprocated, maybe that's for the best.
gpm 5y ago
> then you should be able to choose a company that has an office for you to work in This is the key part though, this isn't an individual choice, it's a company (or at least team) one. If the rest of your team is in the office, and you aren't, then you aren't going to be "in the loop" and you aren't going to be an effective engineer. If the rest of your team is not in the office, and you are, well, at that point it's not really different from a coworking space. The advantages of in person communication simply don't exist. So... expect teams changing from/to in office to be painful, people who disagree are going to have to choose over leaving or sucking it up, and that's not a nice choice to be making. Unfortunately this is somewhat viral between teams too, because your manager is effectively on the "manager team" as well as the local team, and people do move around between team... Moreover there will be plenty of times were you want to work for company X for reasons unrelated to whether or not they work from an office, you like the company mission, the technology, etc. As a result even once things settle down you can't expect everyone to be happy with the office/no-office/partial-office choice that is made...

deleted 5y ago

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rmetzler 5y ago

I would go back to office if my commute was like 20 minutes by bike and I would share a small office with one to three other people on my team. But my commute is 1 hour one way, some people don’t get seats on the train, U-Bahn in Berlin is like a can of sardines during rush hour and the bigger part of my team is in another country and the customer is at the other side of Germany. And the office is one big open office with ~40 people working. You need noise canceling headphones to keep your sanity. I couldn’t focus without them. I‘m glad they don’t want to force us to come back.

mlang23 5y ago
My commute is a 5 minute walk. And thats no accident. I very deliberately chose my flat to be quite near to work. Has saved me about 5000 hours of commute time so far.
- chillel 5y ago
  I love how that's an obvious option for everyone else too! /s
  - grecy 5y ago
    I have a hard rule on myself - if the commute is more than about 20-30 minutes or particularly unpleasant, I must change jobs or move house. Life is too short to spend such a huge part of it in a commute you don't enjoy.
    - sologoub 5y ago
      For those starting out in SV now, that’s usually a choice of giving up a great job or paying super expensive rent/putting all your savings in a house or packing in with roommates.
      - grecy 5y ago
        Yes, exactly.

deleted 5y ago

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irrational 5y ago

We need some way to support both preferences. I’ve also been working professionally for more than 20 years and I absolutely hate working in an office. This past year working from home has done more to improve my mental health than I could possibly imagine. Just the thought of having to work in an office again makes me sick. But I can also understand that there are people like you. I don’t really understand why you feel that way, but I don’t really need to as long as accommodations are made for both people like me and people like you.

radicalriddler 5y ago

We online conference for our meetings anyway, so mine as well do it from the comfort of our homes.