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The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Europe’s entire social safety net is at risk if their private sector can’t generate enough wealth to support it

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Europe’s entire social safety net is at risk if their private sector can’t generate enough wealth to support it. Given their declining populations and anti-immigrant tendencies inflamed by the refugee crisis in many of its member states, it doesn’t look good for the EU’s future.

j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
So basically you're saying it could not work to have a social safety net, so let's not have one all together? Because it could go wrong, don't even try? Does not sound very American.
sgt 5y ago
It's interesting you should note anti-immigration tendencies. I believe those tendencies are fueled by ridiculously liberal immigration laws that essentially allows far too many asylum seekers into Europe. That's why you now see ghettos and zones where the police don't go in France, Sweden and even UK. I am not against immigration but I think Europe should be seriously reconsidering non-western immigration as it will simply clash. Norway has done terrific integration of immigrants and also is in the process of shutting the gates since the 90s. It seems to be the way forward.
- ido 5y ago
  I am not against immigration but I think Europe should be seriously reconsidering non-western immigration as it will simply clash. I don't get why you want to filter them by "non-western"? I have arab, african, indian & east-asian friends here in Berlin that I am sure are net-postives for society. Why not set the filters to something more directly related to what you want to achieve? Such as education level, having a job offer waiting, no criminal record, etc (Germany's blue card program already does more or less that).
  - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
    Because its obviously not about what makes sense ... you don't seem to know but your friends just don't fit our awesome western culture. I really hate the term "culture" by now.
    - imtringued 5y ago
      No, it's just the fact that some part (not all of it) of the economy has become zero sum, primarily low skill labor. When people get screwed in a zero sum game they want someone else to get screwed instead. It's not surprising. It's completely obvious.
      - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
        The thing is, in Germany the people voting for the far-right party are actually doing fine economically and so are their friends. I do agree that parts of the economy are not working properly. And still we can't seem to get ourselves to vote for different politicians that might do something about it. Yeah that means stuff changes and change and new things are scary, but not fixing those things would be worse.
  - throwaway210222 5y ago
    > Why not set the filters to something more directly related to what you want to achieve? Fine I'll bite: draw cartoons of you-know-who, see if they still integrate so seamlessly. Its the elephant in the room.
    - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
      There's assholes everywhere, in any group, so also there's immigrant assholes. Not letting immigrants in doesn't help with the assholes problem.
      - ido 5y ago
        And also not every non-westerner is a Muslim, and not every Muslim is religious/cares about someone drawing Muhammad.
    - rswail 5y ago
      What you're trying to say is Muslim immigrants have trouble integrating in secular European society. But that has been a problem with immigration for years. In Australia in the 50s/60s the same thing was said about Italians and other post-war immigrants. The first generation works hard and busts their ass to get their kids a good education and into professions and business. They also have more of the attitudes of the society they left (conservative etc). The second and then third generation adopt their local society's attitude. This leads to inter-generational clashes. Radical propaganda leads to radicalization to the same endpoint, whether Islamist or Christianist or (in Israel for example) Judaist, or in India, Hinduist. That radicalization is what is causing the current lack of assimilation. It is dangerous because it is driven by having an in group and an out group. It doesn't matter which religion it is, the radicalization, the precepts (male domination, female subjugation, attacking non-cis genders, non-hetero sexuality etc) are all the same.
      - sgt 5y ago
        Comparing Italians with muslim immigrants from war torn countries is far fetched. Italians are all over the world and have integrated just fine. Nobody is more European than people from countries like Italy, Austria, Germany, France.
  - sgt 5y ago
    I think you are deceiving yourself by restricting your dataset to those in your circles. Of course there are many smart and productive immigrants in Germany from all over the world. I said I am not against immigration, but shutting it down for a period or restricting heavily might be worth it due to the potential risks that exist long term. There's no real harm in trying that for Germany's voters, and by doing so you will also keep the far right wingers at bay.
    - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
      > but shutting it down for a period or restricting heavily might be worth it due to the potential risks that exist long term (...) by doing so you will also keep the far right wingers at bay So that means that the people in Germany that would vote for right-wing parties are the problem, not the immigrants themselves, no matter how well they behave. I agree with that.
    - ido 5y ago
      I feel like you are dancing around the issue, which is: why do you care if the migrants are "non-western" rather than of they are educated or have an in demand profession? Correct me if I'm wrong but are you saying you'd prefer blocking a Syrian doctor from immigrating than a French unskilled worker?
      - sgt 5y ago
        I don't want to block the French unskilled worker and I don't need to, as the EU exists and allows for him/her to move to Germany if desired. As for the Syrian doctor - sure that is a pity if strict immigration keeps such individuals out. However, going the formal route with work permit application etc exists as well. It won't be easy but resourceful people will find a way.
- j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
  > That's why you now see ghettos and zones where the police don't go in France, Sweden and even UK. That's failed policy by the people that are already here, not the fault of the immigrants. > I think Europe should be seriously reconsidering non-western immigration as it will simply clash Yeah ... wait what? That's kinda ... what? Why? What's the problem with that? So you don't seem to know, but it worked out very well with the middle eastern immigrants in Germany from 2015. Integration into the workforce worked better than expected, many pay taxes and stuff.
  - mpfundstein 5y ago
    source
  - sgt 5y ago
    If you limit immigration heavily, yet allow for immigration from countries that almost never cause problems, you will limit the risks. Lets then expand on Western countries to simply mean developed nations. Anything from US, Canada, Mexico to Australia, Russia and Japan.
    - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
      But that's the thing, they don't cause too much trouble, so "yet allow for immigration from countries that almost never cause problems" means let's continue doing what we're doing.
      - sgt 5y ago
        Yes, I don't really expect things to change much.
- HatchedLake721 5y ago
  > That's why you now see ghettos and zones where the police don't go in France, Sweden and even UK. Please name me one place in the UK where police don’t go. This is exactly the same 5 year old BS that we heard from Trump times. Even the USA ambassador was embarrassed and grilled by the journalist in the Netherlands to provide one example of “politicians being burned” and “no-go zones” in the Netherlands. https://youtu.be/lOEI6hYZe6Y https://youtu.be/lOEI6hYZe6Y
  - notahacker 5y ago
    tbf, the British press fuels this nonsense. In recent weeks the Daily Mail produced one article that suggested a particular (84% white) suburb was a "no go area" for white people, and another that suggested it was a "posh and leafy suburb" that was top of the list for house hunters nationwide :-/
  - sgt 5y ago
    Police have been told to avoid certain areas in uniform when traveling to and from work. In other areas the police think twice about entering, as people are likely to throw things at the car etc. I have this from a friend in the UK. If that doesn't qualify as a type of "no go", I don't know where to draw the line. In any case, it's shocking.
    - rswail 5y ago
      "a friend in the UK"... what an excellent source of factual unbiased information. It's also bullshit (and if it isn't prove me wrong with actual facts, not apocryphal stories from "friends" ).
      - sgt 5y ago
        Well I can't go and actually name my friends on a public forum, can I. So yes, it's unverifiable. But if you live there, it shouldn't be hard to find someone outside of your London bubble with this opinion.
gjhh244 5y ago
Few European people oppose migration of educated workers. Rather it's about asylum seekers who often arrive here illegally, and typically lack sufficient education to do well in our job markets, leading to very high unemployment rate and other social problems. Europe has a problem with aging workforce, but it can't be solved by importing people who can't find a job.
- j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
  > Few European people oppose migration of educated workers. That's a lie people tell you because they do not want to sound racist. > Rather it's about asylum seekers who often arrive here illegally ... very few ... > and typically lack sufficient education to do well in our job markets, Uhm. And the ones that are educated, we don't recognize their diplomas. Nice. And also, that's what the education system is for. Finally, poor people in poor countries can't afford to flee to Europe. So those people are actually middle class people from poor countries with often quite some education. > leading to very high unemployment rate and other social problems. Nope, that's our own failed policies leading to that. Don't blame our mistakes on immigrants. > Europe has a problem with aging workforce, but it can't be solved by importing people who can't find a job. Than thank god we're not doing that.
  - fna115 5y ago
    GP didn't blame it on the immigrants but on the old money elites who first demanded former Eastern Bloc countries in the EU and then millions of immigrants. In a real market economy, they'd have to raise wages instead. But no, undercutting local workers and cram new arrivals into the already overheated rental market, the old money vultures get even richer.
- imtringued 5y ago
  The only problem with asylum seekers is that it is too difficult for them to apply for asylum before entering the country. Their first contact is a smuggler that gives them a ticket for an overloaded boat and has zero incentive to make sure they arrive in Germany legally or safely. The people they are shipping are just victims of an exploitative industry.

j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago

So basically you're saying it could not work to have a social safety net, so let's not have one all together? Because it could go wrong, don't even try? Does not sound very American.

sgt 5y ago

It's interesting you should note anti-immigration tendencies. I believe those tendencies are fueled by ridiculously liberal immigration laws that essentially allows far too many asylum seekers into Europe. That's why you now see ghettos and zones where the police don't go in France, Sweden and even UK. I am not against immigration but I think Europe should be seriously reconsidering non-western immigration as it will simply clash. Norway has done terrific integration of immigrants and also is in the process of shutting the gates since the 90s. It seems to be the way forward.

ido 5y ago
I am not against immigration but I think Europe should be seriously reconsidering non-western immigration as it will simply clash. I don't get why you want to filter them by "non-western"? I have arab, african, indian & east-asian friends here in Berlin that I am sure are net-postives for society. Why not set the filters to something more directly related to what you want to achieve? Such as education level, having a job offer waiting, no criminal record, etc (Germany's blue card program already does more or less that).
- j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
  Because its obviously not about what makes sense ... you don't seem to know but your friends just don't fit our awesome western culture. I really hate the term "culture" by now.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    No, it's just the fact that some part (not all of it) of the economy has become zero sum, primarily low skill labor. When people get screwed in a zero sum game they want someone else to get screwed instead. It's not surprising. It's completely obvious.
    - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
      The thing is, in Germany the people voting for the far-right party are actually doing fine economically and so are their friends. I do agree that parts of the economy are not working properly. And still we can't seem to get ourselves to vote for different politicians that might do something about it. Yeah that means stuff changes and change and new things are scary, but not fixing those things would be worse.
- throwaway210222 5y ago
  > Why not set the filters to something more directly related to what you want to achieve? Fine I'll bite: draw cartoons of you-know-who, see if they still integrate so seamlessly. Its the elephant in the room.
  - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
    There's assholes everywhere, in any group, so also there's immigrant assholes. Not letting immigrants in doesn't help with the assholes problem.
    - ido 5y ago
      And also not every non-westerner is a Muslim, and not every Muslim is religious/cares about someone drawing Muhammad.
  - rswail 5y ago
    What you're trying to say is Muslim immigrants have trouble integrating in secular European society. But that has been a problem with immigration for years. In Australia in the 50s/60s the same thing was said about Italians and other post-war immigrants. The first generation works hard and busts their ass to get their kids a good education and into professions and business. They also have more of the attitudes of the society they left (conservative etc). The second and then third generation adopt their local society's attitude. This leads to inter-generational clashes. Radical propaganda leads to radicalization to the same endpoint, whether Islamist or Christianist or (in Israel for example) Judaist, or in India, Hinduist. That radicalization is what is causing the current lack of assimilation. It is dangerous because it is driven by having an in group and an out group. It doesn't matter which religion it is, the radicalization, the precepts (male domination, female subjugation, attacking non-cis genders, non-hetero sexuality etc) are all the same.
    - sgt 5y ago
      Comparing Italians with muslim immigrants from war torn countries is far fetched. Italians are all over the world and have integrated just fine. Nobody is more European than people from countries like Italy, Austria, Germany, France.
- sgt 5y ago
  I think you are deceiving yourself by restricting your dataset to those in your circles. Of course there are many smart and productive immigrants in Germany from all over the world. I said I am not against immigration, but shutting it down for a period or restricting heavily might be worth it due to the potential risks that exist long term. There's no real harm in trying that for Germany's voters, and by doing so you will also keep the far right wingers at bay.
  - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
    > but shutting it down for a period or restricting heavily might be worth it due to the potential risks that exist long term (...) by doing so you will also keep the far right wingers at bay So that means that the people in Germany that would vote for right-wing parties are the problem, not the immigrants themselves, no matter how well they behave. I agree with that.
  - ido 5y ago
    I feel like you are dancing around the issue, which is: why do you care if the migrants are "non-western" rather than of they are educated or have an in demand profession? Correct me if I'm wrong but are you saying you'd prefer blocking a Syrian doctor from immigrating than a French unskilled worker?
    - sgt 5y ago
      I don't want to block the French unskilled worker and I don't need to, as the EU exists and allows for him/her to move to Germany if desired. As for the Syrian doctor - sure that is a pity if strict immigration keeps such individuals out. However, going the formal route with work permit application etc exists as well. It won't be easy but resourceful people will find a way.
j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
> That's why you now see ghettos and zones where the police don't go in France, Sweden and even UK. That's failed policy by the people that are already here, not the fault of the immigrants. > I think Europe should be seriously reconsidering non-western immigration as it will simply clash Yeah ... wait what? That's kinda ... what? Why? What's the problem with that? So you don't seem to know, but it worked out very well with the middle eastern immigrants in Germany from 2015. Integration into the workforce worked better than expected, many pay taxes and stuff.
- mpfundstein 5y ago
  source
- sgt 5y ago
  If you limit immigration heavily, yet allow for immigration from countries that almost never cause problems, you will limit the risks. Lets then expand on Western countries to simply mean developed nations. Anything from US, Canada, Mexico to Australia, Russia and Japan.
  - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
    But that's the thing, they don't cause too much trouble, so "yet allow for immigration from countries that almost never cause problems" means let's continue doing what we're doing.
    - sgt 5y ago
      Yes, I don't really expect things to change much.
HatchedLake721 5y ago
> That's why you now see ghettos and zones where the police don't go in France, Sweden and even UK. Please name me one place in the UK where police don’t go. This is exactly the same 5 year old BS that we heard from Trump times. Even the USA ambassador was embarrassed and grilled by the journalist in the Netherlands to provide one example of “politicians being burned” and “no-go zones” in the Netherlands. https://youtu.be/lOEI6hYZe6Y https://youtu.be/lOEI6hYZe6Y
- notahacker 5y ago
  tbf, the British press fuels this nonsense. In recent weeks the Daily Mail produced one article that suggested a particular (84% white) suburb was a "no go area" for white people, and another that suggested it was a "posh and leafy suburb" that was top of the list for house hunters nationwide :-/
- sgt 5y ago
  Police have been told to avoid certain areas in uniform when traveling to and from work. In other areas the police think twice about entering, as people are likely to throw things at the car etc. I have this from a friend in the UK. If that doesn't qualify as a type of "no go", I don't know where to draw the line. In any case, it's shocking.
  - rswail 5y ago
    "a friend in the UK"... what an excellent source of factual unbiased information. It's also bullshit (and if it isn't prove me wrong with actual facts, not apocryphal stories from "friends" ).
    - sgt 5y ago
      Well I can't go and actually name my friends on a public forum, can I. So yes, it's unverifiable. But if you live there, it shouldn't be hard to find someone outside of your London bubble with this opinion.

gjhh244 5y ago

Few European people oppose migration of educated workers. Rather it's about asylum seekers who often arrive here illegally, and typically lack sufficient education to do well in our job markets, leading to very high unemployment rate and other social problems. Europe has a problem with aging workforce, but it can't be solved by importing people who can't find a job.

j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
> Few European people oppose migration of educated workers. That's a lie people tell you because they do not want to sound racist. > Rather it's about asylum seekers who often arrive here illegally ... very few ... > and typically lack sufficient education to do well in our job markets, Uhm. And the ones that are educated, we don't recognize their diplomas. Nice. And also, that's what the education system is for. Finally, poor people in poor countries can't afford to flee to Europe. So those people are actually middle class people from poor countries with often quite some education. > leading to very high unemployment rate and other social problems. Nope, that's our own failed policies leading to that. Don't blame our mistakes on immigrants. > Europe has a problem with aging workforce, but it can't be solved by importing people who can't find a job. Than thank god we're not doing that.
- fna115 5y ago
  GP didn't blame it on the immigrants but on the old money elites who first demanded former Eastern Bloc countries in the EU and then millions of immigrants. In a real market economy, they'd have to raise wages instead. But no, undercutting local workers and cram new arrivals into the already overheated rental market, the old money vultures get even richer.
imtringued 5y ago
The only problem with asylum seekers is that it is too difficult for them to apply for asylum before entering the country. Their first contact is a smuggler that gives them a ticket for an overloaded boat and has zero incentive to make sure they arrive in Germany legally or safely. The people they are shipping are just victims of an exploitative industry.