8 ms·

What does effort mean in this context? I recall friends of mine, young women, who were having the hardest time finding a significant other were just demanding t

What does effort mean in this context? I recall friends of mine, young women, who were having the hardest time finding a significant other were just demanding things of men that would have them selecting from a socioeconomic pool of the top 20% of the population, when they themselves were in the bottom 20%. It was my experience that young women in general were asking for too much when I was in my early 20s. They wanted someone who had it "all together," and that's just not where most people are in their early 20s. There doesn't seem to be any appreciation anymore for the fact that young couples grow up together. Instead, people seem to think that you grow up first and establish who you are independently, then find someone else to bring into your life. But realistically, you don't finish growing before dating, and in life who you become is based on the interactions not just with your significant other, but your friends and family, too. Lastly, all of my dating experiences online lead me to women who wanted to be "entertained." And not in the sort of "wined and dined" sense which seems obvious to me, but rather most women I came across didn't want to get to know men, they just wanted entertainment value out of the experience of dating. This was a sharp contrast from interactions with young women in real life. The dating world for both young men and women online seems to create some strange scenarios that don't play out well for anyone involved. I see this manifest the most in online dating where most men are naturally led to play pickup artist lines. I personally find it extremely off-putting. I'm not a jester.

willcipriano 5y ago
"Take me on an adventure" was always a instant no for me. In the modern world a spouse is supposed to be a equal partner, I'm glad I found my wife who feels the same way. I don't want someone I have to drag somewhere like a suitcase.
- andrewmcwatters 5y ago
  I think this also gets to the heart of it. My general feeling was that women wanted equality but didn't want to put in any effort whatsoever, and so a lot of women I came across just seemed like bums. I'm not saying that is what you're saying. It just made me recall my experiences.
  - motogpjimbo 5y ago
    It's a terrible thing to say, but many young women today, if judged by the same standards as men, would be considered losers. They have nothing going on in their own lives, yet have sky-high expectations of what men are supposed to provide them. And for the most part, modern dating culture lets them get away with it.
    - willcipriano 5y ago
      Young men reading this, don't let it get you down or make you hate women, that path leads to ruin. In my experience once you become the sort of man who chooses not to participate when someone expects more from you then they are willing to give, the sort of women who is willing to be a equal partner comes out of the woodwork. They don't want to be with a loser either.
      - clpm4j 5y ago
        If a young main in his 20s is dissatisfied with the dating culture and prospects, it makes some sense to just forget about dating until early 30s and instead use all of that time and freedom to focus on establishing yourself. If you can focus and put in the work to become the type of person you want to be, then you'll pick your head up at the age of 32-35 and (seemingly) suddenly a lot of those women in their 20s will want to date you. Speaking from personal experience and assuming you aren't the type who wants to start a family in your 20s.
        majormajor 5y ago
        > If a young main in his 20s is dissatisfied with the dating culture and prospects, it makes some sense to just forget about dating until early 30s and instead use all of that time and freedom to focus on establishing yourself. This needs to be hugely caveated. If you skip dating for five to ten years, you're gonna jump back in fresh and probably fuck things up terribly the first few times. Too eager, too indifferent, too clingy, too distant, etc... you're gonna be terribly out of practice at it all. It's a skill, like anything else it takes practice. There's altogether too much BS out there about people being "meant to be" versus people putting in the work on both sides to create something real.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
michaelt 5y ago
> What does effort mean in this context? One school of thought says there are men on dating websites who copy-paste a message saying "hey how you doing?" to every woman they see; and that women are beset by hundreds of copy-pasted messages from men who haven't even read their profile. This school of thought says, in order to stand out, men should carefully compose a different clever, charming message for each woman they contact, based on things the recipient mentions in their profile and suchlike. Of course, a man sending 100 copy-pasted messages and a man sending 5 high-quality messages might be expending the same amount of effort in total but the latter is demonstrating greater effort per woman In this context, kogepathic means more men should adopt the strategy of carefully composing messages.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  You also have the problem of writing dozens and dozens of seemingly engaging and individualized messages only to get no response back. So eventually, you start putting less and less effort into each message and even start to repeat old ones. It's a sad fact of life.
  - twalla 5y ago
    When I was dating I was fortunate to have a large enough match pool to experiment with this. The result: a stupid copy-pasted throwaway line or emoji had roughly the same results as a message I put some thought into. The second category got a few more responses but in terms of conversion to an actual date there wasn't an appreciable difference. The takeaway for me is profile pictures, physical appearance and class/status signifiers (vacations, hobbies, nice things in/around the picture) were all that mattered and if someone was sold on that all you really had to do was not get in your own way by saying something stupid.
  - kogepathic 5y ago
    > You also have the problem of writing dozens and dozens of seemingly engaging and individualized messages only to get no response back. To use a property analogy: if I am not the highest offer on a house, I probably won't get it. Doesn't matter if I have a trust fund or work for minimum wage (effort put into the offer) my offer wasn't accepted. Similarly if I'm the seller, I can decide "No, actually I don't want to sell my house to BlackRock, I'd rather sell it to this young family" and that's entirely my choice. This choice might leave money on the table, but at least I get the warm fuzzy feels inside for doing what I think is best. What you describe sounds like you want some kind of "thank you for putting in some effort" but you decide the amount of effort to invest, the other party owes you nothing.
majormajor 5y ago
This is talking about two different things, I think. The "I want the total package" unrealistic-expectations person is prominent in both genders, even if "no fat chicks" t-shirts aren't as popular as they once were. The slob-with-hot-wife TV trope probably hasn't helped men's expectations here. The "I'm gonna send a thousand dick pics and see who is down for a hookup" behavior, on the other hand, seems predominantly male-dominated. Even the women looking for hookups don't operate like that (you could debate chicken-and-egg here, around how they don't ever have to with all the dudes throwing themselves at them, but I'm not too interested in that). Those men result in a worse experience for BOTH women and men, but in a more acute fashion for the women on the receiving end of the creepiness than for the men who just have to try harder to manage to stand out above the background bullshit level.
- throwaway306744 5y ago
  > Those men result in a worse experience for BOTH women and men Someone at Match Group must have worked out that having these users boosts the bottom line more than it reduces engagement and retention. Maybe these are the guys paying for Premium Platinum with extra InMails each day. (Oops wrong platform.)
Spooky23 5y ago
It’s a viscous cycle for women. You don’t want to put too much of yourself out there, because crazy people, but not doing so ends up selling your body, which tends to attract a wider variety of men that don’t line up with your vision. So the two extremes are basically having sex with rando internet people and getting ultra-picky.
- gnicholas 5y ago
  There may be some aspects of online dating that are properly described as "viscous", but I think the cycle you're referring to is vicious :)
- ameister14 5y ago
  I'm sorry, but your comment cracked me up - viscous means a thick, sticky consistency, so a viscous cycle for women, well; you meant vicious circle, I assume
  - Spooky23 5y ago
    Lol. I blame autocorrect :)

willcipriano 5y ago

"Take me on an adventure" was always a instant no for me. In the modern world a spouse is supposed to be a equal partner, I'm glad I found my wife who feels the same way. I don't want someone I have to drag somewhere like a suitcase.

andrewmcwatters 5y ago
I think this also gets to the heart of it. My general feeling was that women wanted equality but didn't want to put in any effort whatsoever, and so a lot of women I came across just seemed like bums. I'm not saying that is what you're saying. It just made me recall my experiences.
- motogpjimbo 5y ago
  It's a terrible thing to say, but many young women today, if judged by the same standards as men, would be considered losers. They have nothing going on in their own lives, yet have sky-high expectations of what men are supposed to provide them. And for the most part, modern dating culture lets them get away with it.
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    Young men reading this, don't let it get you down or make you hate women, that path leads to ruin. In my experience once you become the sort of man who chooses not to participate when someone expects more from you then they are willing to give, the sort of women who is willing to be a equal partner comes out of the woodwork. They don't want to be with a loser either.
    - clpm4j 5y ago
      If a young main in his 20s is dissatisfied with the dating culture and prospects, it makes some sense to just forget about dating until early 30s and instead use all of that time and freedom to focus on establishing yourself. If you can focus and put in the work to become the type of person you want to be, then you'll pick your head up at the age of 32-35 and (seemingly) suddenly a lot of those women in their 20s will want to date you. Speaking from personal experience and assuming you aren't the type who wants to start a family in your 20s.
      - majormajor 5y ago
        > If a young main in his 20s is dissatisfied with the dating culture and prospects, it makes some sense to just forget about dating until early 30s and instead use all of that time and freedom to focus on establishing yourself. This needs to be hugely caveated. If you skip dating for five to ten years, you're gonna jump back in fresh and probably fuck things up terribly the first few times. Too eager, too indifferent, too clingy, too distant, etc... you're gonna be terribly out of practice at it all. It's a skill, like anything else it takes practice. There's altogether too much BS out there about people being "meant to be" versus people putting in the work on both sides to create something real.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

michaelt 5y ago

> What does effort mean in this context? One school of thought says there are men on dating websites who copy-paste a message saying "hey how you doing?" to every woman they see; and that women are beset by hundreds of copy-pasted messages from men who haven't even read their profile. This school of thought says, in order to stand out, men should carefully compose a different clever, charming message for each woman they contact, based on things the recipient mentions in their profile and suchlike. Of course, a man sending 100 copy-pasted messages and a man sending 5 high-quality messages might be expending the same amount of effort in total but the latter is demonstrating greater effort per woman In this context, kogepathic means more men should adopt the strategy of carefully composing messages.

BitwiseFool 5y ago
You also have the problem of writing dozens and dozens of seemingly engaging and individualized messages only to get no response back. So eventually, you start putting less and less effort into each message and even start to repeat old ones. It's a sad fact of life.
- twalla 5y ago
  When I was dating I was fortunate to have a large enough match pool to experiment with this. The result: a stupid copy-pasted throwaway line or emoji had roughly the same results as a message I put some thought into. The second category got a few more responses but in terms of conversion to an actual date there wasn't an appreciable difference. The takeaway for me is profile pictures, physical appearance and class/status signifiers (vacations, hobbies, nice things in/around the picture) were all that mattered and if someone was sold on that all you really had to do was not get in your own way by saying something stupid.
- kogepathic 5y ago
  > You also have the problem of writing dozens and dozens of seemingly engaging and individualized messages only to get no response back. To use a property analogy: if I am not the highest offer on a house, I probably won't get it. Doesn't matter if I have a trust fund or work for minimum wage (effort put into the offer) my offer wasn't accepted. Similarly if I'm the seller, I can decide "No, actually I don't want to sell my house to BlackRock, I'd rather sell it to this young family" and that's entirely my choice. This choice might leave money on the table, but at least I get the warm fuzzy feels inside for doing what I think is best. What you describe sounds like you want some kind of "thank you for putting in some effort" but you decide the amount of effort to invest, the other party owes you nothing.

majormajor 5y ago

This is talking about two different things, I think. The "I want the total package" unrealistic-expectations person is prominent in both genders, even if "no fat chicks" t-shirts aren't as popular as they once were. The slob-with-hot-wife TV trope probably hasn't helped men's expectations here. The "I'm gonna send a thousand dick pics and see who is down for a hookup" behavior, on the other hand, seems predominantly male-dominated. Even the women looking for hookups don't operate like that (you could debate chicken-and-egg here, around how they don't ever have to with all the dudes throwing themselves at them, but I'm not too interested in that). Those men result in a worse experience for BOTH women and men, but in a more acute fashion for the women on the receiving end of the creepiness than for the men who just have to try harder to manage to stand out above the background bullshit level.

throwaway306744 5y ago
> Those men result in a worse experience for BOTH women and men Someone at Match Group must have worked out that having these users boosts the bottom line more than it reduces engagement and retention. Maybe these are the guys paying for Premium Platinum with extra InMails each day. (Oops wrong platform.)

Spooky23 5y ago

It’s a viscous cycle for women. You don’t want to put too much of yourself out there, because crazy people, but not doing so ends up selling your body, which tends to attract a wider variety of men that don’t line up with your vision. So the two extremes are basically having sex with rando internet people and getting ultra-picky.

gnicholas 5y ago
There may be some aspects of online dating that are properly described as "viscous", but I think the cycle you're referring to is vicious :)
ameister14 5y ago
I'm sorry, but your comment cracked me up - viscous means a thick, sticky consistency, so a viscous cycle for women, well; you meant vicious circle, I assume
- Spooky23 5y ago
  Lol. I blame autocorrect :)