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> Before the centralisation of the prison estate in the later 19th century, criminal punishment mostly meant exile or execution. It is a profound dilemma - for

> Before the centralisation of the prison estate in the later 19th century, criminal punishment mostly meant exile or execution. It is a profound dilemma - for me at least - which among the two is worse: To live in a society in which the sovereign maintains warehouses of living human bodies; or kills people for non-capital offenses. I would like a society with "neither". And if you ever spend a while in prison, or your friends do, or even if you read some accounts like this one, or Foucault's "History of madness in the age of reason", I think you might draw nearer to this conclusion.

mc32 5y ago
So, think about this. What if you could ship offenders who reach a threshold (violent felony) and you had a place to ship them to. A big island or large area 5000sq mi, let’s say. Let that body set their own rules within that geographic area. How would they organize themselves and mete out justice? [not to be confused with early Australia or whatever in pop culture].
- bwestergard 5y ago
  I think there are many reasons this is morally and politically unacceptable. But to name just one practical objection: this would only intensify policing of borders (internal to a state's territory or otherwise). Siberian exiles of Tsarist Russia were quite frequently able to make it back to the urban west. Leon Trotsky is one famous example.
  - mc32 5y ago
    You could ease concerns by making it a choice. Regular prison with whatever sentence or they can live out their sentence in this area. They’d make the rules they live by. There is no “man”. It’s just them.
    - bwestergard 5y ago
      At that point, you might as well just have a genuinely rehabilitative prison area of the kind many European countries run. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bast%C3%B8y_Prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bast%C3%B8y_Prison
  - lopatin 5y ago
    Similarly Stalin was sent to Siberian prisons/work camps in early life. Every time he managed to talk his way out with the guards. Though unlike Trotsky, he went east afterwards.
notshift 5y ago
What else should a society do about criminals?
- jokoon 5y ago
  Rehabilitate them, give funds to initiatives that attempt to do something positive with those people. There are other things to look into, of course: the causes, like inequality, lack of education, mental illness, health, the justice system, legalize things that should not be illegal. It's also possible to hold a register of those individuals, and to signal the public about it, too? At least be open with the idea. It's fine if you disagree with it. If you're fine with capital punishment or prisons, then I guess there is no point for debate?
  - xenocratus 5y ago
    This is one of the things that popped into my head recently and isn't going away - society has accepted that "chronic, usually irrational sadness" is a mental health issue which can and should be treated. But a "chronic, usually irrational tendency for violence" is considered repugnant and worthy of long imprisonment. True, the effects fall on different categories of people (yourself vs others) and it might be difficult to identify it as a mental health issue, but I'd assume many repeat offenders might benefit a lot from psychological support. I know The Economist had an article recently about how the incidence of brain injuries is a lot higher in prison than in the general population [1] I'm no psychology expert, I'd love to hear an informed opinion on this. [1] https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/03/27/a-huge-share-of-prisoners-have-brain-injuries-they-need-more-help https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/03/27/a-huge-share-of...
    - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
      >"chronic, usually irrational tendency for violence" is considered repugnant and worthy of long imprisonment. True, the effects fall on different categories of people (yourself vs others) well first off some depressive people show an increased tendency towards violence https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4520382/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4520382/ (although also of course it is a well known statistic that being depressed often makes you a victim of violent crime as well or at least there is some relation between the two) also in my experience people who commit violence often suffer for the violence they have committed although that is very much dependent on the person.

mc32 5y ago

So, think about this. What if you could ship offenders who reach a threshold (violent felony) and you had a place to ship them to. A big island or large area 5000sq mi, let’s say. Let that body set their own rules within that geographic area. How would they organize themselves and mete out justice? [not to be confused with early Australia or whatever in pop culture].

bwestergard 5y ago
I think there are many reasons this is morally and politically unacceptable. But to name just one practical objection: this would only intensify policing of borders (internal to a state's territory or otherwise). Siberian exiles of Tsarist Russia were quite frequently able to make it back to the urban west. Leon Trotsky is one famous example.
- mc32 5y ago
  You could ease concerns by making it a choice. Regular prison with whatever sentence or they can live out their sentence in this area. They’d make the rules they live by. There is no “man”. It’s just them.
  - bwestergard 5y ago
    At that point, you might as well just have a genuinely rehabilitative prison area of the kind many European countries run. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bast%C3%B8y_Prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bast%C3%B8y_Prison
- lopatin 5y ago
  Similarly Stalin was sent to Siberian prisons/work camps in early life. Every time he managed to talk his way out with the guards. Though unlike Trotsky, he went east afterwards.

notshift 5y ago

What else should a society do about criminals?

jokoon 5y ago
Rehabilitate them, give funds to initiatives that attempt to do something positive with those people. There are other things to look into, of course: the causes, like inequality, lack of education, mental illness, health, the justice system, legalize things that should not be illegal. It's also possible to hold a register of those individuals, and to signal the public about it, too? At least be open with the idea. It's fine if you disagree with it. If you're fine with capital punishment or prisons, then I guess there is no point for debate?
- xenocratus 5y ago
  This is one of the things that popped into my head recently and isn't going away - society has accepted that "chronic, usually irrational sadness" is a mental health issue which can and should be treated. But a "chronic, usually irrational tendency for violence" is considered repugnant and worthy of long imprisonment. True, the effects fall on different categories of people (yourself vs others) and it might be difficult to identify it as a mental health issue, but I'd assume many repeat offenders might benefit a lot from psychological support. I know The Economist had an article recently about how the incidence of brain injuries is a lot higher in prison than in the general population [1] I'm no psychology expert, I'd love to hear an informed opinion on this. [1] https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/03/27/a-huge-share-of-prisoners-have-brain-injuries-they-need-more-help https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/03/27/a-huge-share-of...
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    >"chronic, usually irrational tendency for violence" is considered repugnant and worthy of long imprisonment. True, the effects fall on different categories of people (yourself vs others) well first off some depressive people show an increased tendency towards violence https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4520382/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4520382/ (although also of course it is a well known statistic that being depressed often makes you a victim of violent crime as well or at least there is some relation between the two) also in my experience people who commit violence often suffer for the violence they have committed although that is very much dependent on the person.