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Let's be real. The loser here is middle managers. Not all of them. Just the ones who feed off of the high they get from having control over the office environme

Let's be real. The loser here is middle managers. Not all of them. Just the ones who feed off of the high they get from having control over the office environment.

benatkin 5y ago
This hinges on the following: > "Zuckerberg said employees who want to work in an office will be asked to come in at least half the time." I agree - part time remote work will be bad for micromanagers.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  It will be bad for the permanent wfh employees. While they are eating lunch at home, their coworkers will be grabbing lunch with the boss, building those relationships, and getting all the promotions and raises.
  - alexlesuper 5y ago
    I feel like this is a case of having your cake and eating it too.
  - roberto 5y ago
    I'd rather have the option of having lunch at home, with my family, than at work with my boss, even if it costs a promotion.
    - baby 5y ago
      +1
stephc_int13 5y ago
I feel the same. Middle management is not always useful, they mostly have the role of herding dogs, but if the work is not dumb and soul-crushing I don't think most people need to be herded. (and I am talking as someone who built companies and led teams)
- KKKKkkkk1 5y ago
  But most work is dumb and soul crushing.
  - stephc_int13 5y ago
    In my opinion, people should not accept to do this kind of work, but I understand that societies tend to be structured in a way to push a lot of people to work like slaves with the illusion of freedom. But that's an other story.
skizm 5y ago
New hires and mentors too. Remote / virtual on boarding sucks. I’ve been on both ends this pandemic. No fun either way.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  I think it is subjective. Having done both a few times, from both sides, and I still prefer remote. Little is lost and much is gained in terms of control over ones environment.
  - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
    We surveyed the opinions of our 2021 summer intern population before they started and something over 90% of them expressed a preference to be in the office. Of course, summer interns are a slightly odd population as the choice they're making is probably between doing their internship remotely from their bedroom at their parents house or spending ten weeks in the big city so there is that.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      Also because interns are looking to be rehired at the end of the summer.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      I would only hire that 10%, those 90% are saying I need more hand holding.
      - wfawejoiweoif 5y ago
        They're interns. They are supposed to have their hands held, it's a learning position.
      - postalrat 5y ago
        10% are saying they enjoy no responsibility.
      - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
skeeter2020 5y ago
I don't know if that's me, but I'm a engineering manager that focuses on personal relationships and remote has made my job harder and take way more energy. High fidelity communication is hard or impossible and the alternatives frankly, suck. I don't _think_ I get high from controlling an office environment (not sure what that means) but I sure miss white boards and in-person collaboration.
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
  Sure - but what's best for the worker bees is ultimately important. If they're more efficient, then it just sucks for you. If they're not more efficient, then there's a business case for bringing the worker bees back to the hive.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  You know one way and doing anything different is difficult. It also will challenge you and make you a better manager and person. Do you really need a crutch like the white board? Do you really need that employee right beside you? Take all of that away and you can still be a good manager.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
    > Do you really need a crutch like the white board? Umm, what? Having been a manager and an IC I don't see a white board as a crutch at all, I see it as a highly effective tool for a specific set of problems. I definitely prefer working at home when I'm heads down, I know what the problem is and I just need to crank out a solution. When I'm designing the solution to a problem with a group of people, or heck even just trying to fully clarify the problem, having an in-person session is just much more productive and efficient. What's more, having now done lots of remote design/problem solving sessions, both as the leader of the meeting and the participant, I find them always less effective in every way when there are at least 3 people in the meeting.
- 5y ago
rllearneratwork 5y ago
I am an engineering manager at Bay Area tech company and I love WFH. We have on-boarded lots of new employees and interns remotely and while there are difficulties the benefits seems to prevail. Actually, I don't have anyone who is physically in California (I am the only one on my team who is physically there). EDIT: list of WFH benefits (not complete): no commute (this is huge for some), ICs tend to do more focused work, ability to hire talent globally, giving option to people to live where they want to live (vs work), less seasonal colds, etc.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fbggthro 5y ago
This strawman about middle managers in the WFH conversation is exhausting and annoying. Do you really think middle managers are some evil scum-sucking lizards that actually enjoy things like hour long commutes and wearing uncomfortable clothes? They're people just like you are, and they enjoy sitting at home in their pajamas just as much as you do. Maybe, just maybe the issue is that middle managers have actual, legitimate reasons that WFH isn't a universally good thing. Contrary to what you may think, not every worker in tech is a high-performing star that produces flawless code if you just leave them alone in their home office. A lot of employees are lazy and will take advantage of the reduced oversight to slack off, a lot of employees are people who need constant hands-on mentoring or direction, and a lot of employees are just simply more productive when there's someone to impress nearby. So while I respect that you might be the perfect worker bee who does whatever work is assigned with no oversight or hand-holding required, most employees are not that, and in-person oversight/mentoring (and if in-person oversight can't happen, get ready for increase monitoring on your work laptop usage) legitimately is necessary.
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  Here here. I want the office, to help me focus, and to reduce friction when communicating and solving problems. Most of my job is not coding. My job isn't assembly line work. It is solving problems in coordination with my peers, which yields small amounts of code and configuration. If I had straight-ahead clear as day coding to do, and I was motivated -- then, yes, being at home in my own environment in the quiet would be great. But that's not my job, nor the job of many other people. Working from home is not for everyone. I'm looking forward to returning.
- SilverRed 5y ago
  I can relate to this a bit. Most here will quickly jump on the "Judge output and not effort" and dismiss the fact that judging output is very difficult, time consuming and often unfair. If the task hasn't been done on time, it might be because the task underestimated the difficulty, or that the person had other tasks which interrupted this one. If the person tried their best and they are competent, the output doesn't matter so much since likely it would have taken an equal amount of time for anyone else to get it done. You can't ask people to do more than they are capable of. When everyone is honest and trying their best there are no problems but its pretty hard to work out when they aren't.
Sunspark 5y ago
Awful that so much of corporate culture is oriented around having a middle-manager bully. Always yipping and yapping about "productivity" never focusing on what you do as opposed to how much of whatever. Never wanting you to take breaks, but always wanting you to work unpaid overtime and taking all the credit for themselves. Super quick to make sure the blame is yours whenever there is an issue. Engineers are some of the worst middle-managers you can encounter. Never work for an engineer middle-manager if you can avoid it unless you're an engineer yourself. They tend to come with huge egos and entitlement due to their degree and don't have the people skills to allow them to manage or run a team successfully. They only care about themselves and wearing their ring to make sure all of you know they have one. I realize a lot of the HN audience are engineers. I don't care. Just because you're an engineer doesn't make you a project manager or even good at managing a project or a team of non-engineers. This is a self-delusion that many of them have.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  IMO bitching about bad middle managers is like bitching that the kid making minimum wage at McDonald's isn't the epitome of gracious customer service. I have been a middle manager, and can say pretty confidently that it is a very difficult and a very shitty job. This is one reason that it tends to pay quite well is that there are fewer people who want to go into it (as opposed to, say, high level IC). A middle manager gets to make very few decisions but gets to be the messenger for the majority of them.
newacct583 5y ago
Terminology correction: control over the "office environment" (meaning bossing people around directly or whatever) is something you'd expect from the lowest level of manager. "Middle" managers are the next tier up, the people in the middle of the corporate hierarchy between the actual groups doing work and the VP-level senior executives. Middle managers are famous for feeding off of email directives, I guess. Not control over the office environment to which they may not be local.

Let's be real. The loser here is middle managers. Not all of them. Just the ones who feed off of the high they get from having control over the office environment.

benatkin 5y ago

This hinges on the following: > "Zuckerberg said employees who want to work in an office will be asked to come in at least half the time." I agree - part time remote work will be bad for micromanagers.

missedthecue 5y ago
It will be bad for the permanent wfh employees. While they are eating lunch at home, their coworkers will be grabbing lunch with the boss, building those relationships, and getting all the promotions and raises.
- alexlesuper 5y ago
  I feel like this is a case of having your cake and eating it too.
- roberto 5y ago
  I'd rather have the option of having lunch at home, with my family, than at work with my boss, even if it costs a promotion.
  - baby 5y ago
    +1

stephc_int13 5y ago

I feel the same. Middle management is not always useful, they mostly have the role of herding dogs, but if the work is not dumb and soul-crushing I don't think most people need to be herded. (and I am talking as someone who built companies and led teams)

KKKKkkkk1 5y ago
But most work is dumb and soul crushing.
- stephc_int13 5y ago
  In my opinion, people should not accept to do this kind of work, but I understand that societies tend to be structured in a way to push a lot of people to work like slaves with the illusion of freedom. But that's an other story.

skizm 5y ago

New hires and mentors too. Remote / virtual on boarding sucks. I’ve been on both ends this pandemic. No fun either way.

paulryanrogers 5y ago
I think it is subjective. Having done both a few times, from both sides, and I still prefer remote. Little is lost and much is gained in terms of control over ones environment.
- NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
  We surveyed the opinions of our 2021 summer intern population before they started and something over 90% of them expressed a preference to be in the office. Of course, summer interns are a slightly odd population as the choice they're making is probably between doing their internship remotely from their bedroom at their parents house or spending ten weeks in the big city so there is that.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Also because interns are looking to be rehired at the end of the summer.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    I would only hire that 10%, those 90% are saying I need more hand holding.
    - wfawejoiweoif 5y ago
      They're interns. They are supposed to have their hands held, it's a learning position.
    - postalrat 5y ago
      10% are saying they enjoy no responsibility.
    - 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

skeeter2020 5y ago

I don't know if that's me, but I'm a engineering manager that focuses on personal relationships and remote has made my job harder and take way more energy. High fidelity communication is hard or impossible and the alternatives frankly, suck. I don't _think_ I get high from controlling an office environment (not sure what that means) but I sure miss white boards and in-person collaboration.

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
Sure - but what's best for the worker bees is ultimately important. If they're more efficient, then it just sucks for you. If they're not more efficient, then there's a business case for bringing the worker bees back to the hive.
ipaddr 5y ago
You know one way and doing anything different is difficult. It also will challenge you and make you a better manager and person. Do you really need a crutch like the white board? Do you really need that employee right beside you? Take all of that away and you can still be a good manager.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  > Do you really need a crutch like the white board? Umm, what? Having been a manager and an IC I don't see a white board as a crutch at all, I see it as a highly effective tool for a specific set of problems. I definitely prefer working at home when I'm heads down, I know what the problem is and I just need to crank out a solution. When I'm designing the solution to a problem with a group of people, or heck even just trying to fully clarify the problem, having an in-person session is just much more productive and efficient. What's more, having now done lots of remote design/problem solving sessions, both as the leader of the meeting and the participant, I find them always less effective in every way when there are at least 3 people in the meeting.
5y ago

rllearneratwork 5y ago

I am an engineering manager at Bay Area tech company and I love WFH. We have on-boarded lots of new employees and interns remotely and while there are difficulties the benefits seems to prevail. Actually, I don't have anyone who is physically in California (I am the only one on my team who is physically there). EDIT: list of WFH benefits (not complete): no commute (this is huge for some), ICs tend to do more focused work, ability to hire talent globally, giving option to people to live where they want to live (vs work), less seasonal colds, etc.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

fbggthro 5y ago

This strawman about middle managers in the WFH conversation is exhausting and annoying. Do you really think middle managers are some evil scum-sucking lizards that actually enjoy things like hour long commutes and wearing uncomfortable clothes? They're people just like you are, and they enjoy sitting at home in their pajamas just as much as you do. Maybe, just maybe the issue is that middle managers have actual, legitimate reasons that WFH isn't a universally good thing. Contrary to what you may think, not every worker in tech is a high-performing star that produces flawless code if you just leave them alone in their home office. A lot of employees are lazy and will take advantage of the reduced oversight to slack off, a lot of employees are people who need constant hands-on mentoring or direction, and a lot of employees are just simply more productive when there's someone to impress nearby. So while I respect that you might be the perfect worker bee who does whatever work is assigned with no oversight or hand-holding required, most employees are not that, and in-person oversight/mentoring (and if in-person oversight can't happen, get ready for increase monitoring on your work laptop usage) legitimately is necessary.

cmrdporcupine 5y ago
Here here. I want the office, to help me focus, and to reduce friction when communicating and solving problems. Most of my job is not coding. My job isn't assembly line work. It is solving problems in coordination with my peers, which yields small amounts of code and configuration. If I had straight-ahead clear as day coding to do, and I was motivated -- then, yes, being at home in my own environment in the quiet would be great. But that's not my job, nor the job of many other people. Working from home is not for everyone. I'm looking forward to returning.
SilverRed 5y ago
I can relate to this a bit. Most here will quickly jump on the "Judge output and not effort" and dismiss the fact that judging output is very difficult, time consuming and often unfair. If the task hasn't been done on time, it might be because the task underestimated the difficulty, or that the person had other tasks which interrupted this one. If the person tried their best and they are competent, the output doesn't matter so much since likely it would have taken an equal amount of time for anyone else to get it done. You can't ask people to do more than they are capable of. When everyone is honest and trying their best there are no problems but its pretty hard to work out when they aren't.

Sunspark 5y ago

Awful that so much of corporate culture is oriented around having a middle-manager bully. Always yipping and yapping about "productivity" never focusing on what you do as opposed to how much of whatever. Never wanting you to take breaks, but always wanting you to work unpaid overtime and taking all the credit for themselves. Super quick to make sure the blame is yours whenever there is an issue. Engineers are some of the worst middle-managers you can encounter. Never work for an engineer middle-manager if you can avoid it unless you're an engineer yourself. They tend to come with huge egos and entitlement due to their degree and don't have the people skills to allow them to manage or run a team successfully. They only care about themselves and wearing their ring to make sure all of you know they have one. I realize a lot of the HN audience are engineers. I don't care. Just because you're an engineer doesn't make you a project manager or even good at managing a project or a team of non-engineers. This is a self-delusion that many of them have.

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
IMO bitching about bad middle managers is like bitching that the kid making minimum wage at McDonald's isn't the epitome of gracious customer service. I have been a middle manager, and can say pretty confidently that it is a very difficult and a very shitty job. This is one reason that it tends to pay quite well is that there are fewer people who want to go into it (as opposed to, say, high level IC). A middle manager gets to make very few decisions but gets to be the messenger for the majority of them.

newacct583 5y ago

Terminology correction: control over the "office environment" (meaning bossing people around directly or whatever) is something you'd expect from the lowest level of manager. "Middle" managers are the next tier up, the people in the middle of the corporate hierarchy between the actual groups doing work and the VP-level senior executives. Middle managers are famous for feeding off of email directives, I guess. Not control over the office environment to which they may not be local.