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1B is like three last-gen ASML machines, good start I guess, but chip manufacturing can easily absorb 10x of that. As I understand it, there are no plans to tu

1B is like three last-gen ASML machines, good start I guess, but chip manufacturing can easily absorb 10x of that. As I understand it, there are no plans to turn Europe into a chip leader, they just want to protect automotive supply chain.

brnt 5y ago
This factory won't be purchasing last gen stuff, more like 10 year old gen machines (I heard 25ish nm machines).
- kenhwang 5y ago
  Other sources[1] say its 65nm, and the chips won't even be used for automotive purposes. [1]: https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/bosch-opens-fab-2021-06/ https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/bosch-opens-...
  - sorenjan 5y ago
    Here's a source from Bosch themselves saying "up to 65 nm", which I assume means 65 nm as the smallest feature. They're making "Application-specific integrated circuits (ASICs), and power semiconductors" mainly for the automotive industry, so they're probably counting on that being enough. And what a great time to start production. https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/300-mm-wafer-fab-in-dresden-229248.html https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/300-mm-wafer-f...
  - nfin 5y ago
    the text says otherwise regarding automotive: "with output of automotive chips to follow from September" (so, you're correct for now until september, but sep. is soon already I would say)
- lallysingh 5y ago
  They'll probably making chips for Bosch parts. IIUC they don't do much advanced computational stuff.
stefan_ 5y ago
No ones using last-gen for automotive.
- coolspot 5y ago
  I was just establishing frame of reference for the investment amout. 1B is barely news-worthy.
- antattack 5y ago
  Tesla is using Navi 23 RDNA in their new S and X models. That's 7nm chip. NN accelerators will likely move to 16nm or better soon. However, you're right that most automotive chips and power electronics use 180 or 65nm process. EDIT: Mobile Eye, EyeQ5 ADAS SoC is already 7nm FinFET.
- GloriousKoji 5y ago
  Maybe for computational stuff but older/bigger process nodes are still very capable (and possibly better) for power related things.
- iseanstevens 5y ago
  Most cars still default to incandescent bulbs for many uses. Few cars attempt to understand the situation around them, beyond a rear camera and maybe ultrasonic reverse sensor for parking. Engine control units have gotten more complicated, but unless high end or EV, It’s mostly mid 90s tech. Disagree?
  - jiofih 5y ago
    I dare you find an incandescent on any car designed in the last five years. It’s insanely inefficient.
    - developer93 5y ago
      And at least in Europe, outlawed since about 10 years
marcodiego 5y ago
Complete outsider doubt: every time I hear about chip manufacturing, somebody talks about ASML machines. Considering that many of the chips we use are built by ASML machines, why isn't Netherlands a top chip manufacturer?
- madengr 5y ago
  They probably don’t have the manpower. The Asian countries produce hardware engineers at 10x that of the west, and with a much larger population, have a vast talent pool.
- icegreentea2 5y ago
  The skills and risks in different parts of the chain are different. Having access to excellent photo-lithography machines is not enough to guarantee having an excellent foundry or process - that much should be evident from ASML supplying TSMC and Intel, and observing Intel's struggles with 10nm. The machines ASML produces allow you make ultra precise and tiny patterns of material. You still need to choose what those materials are, figure out how you're going to create the material (as in what dopants are you adding in what quantities), what your geometry actually is, and on and on and on.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- MangoCoffee 5y ago
  different skillset. making equipment and running a profitable fab is like Apple and Orange. Intel with its years of experiences in semis industry and yet Intel is not in the semis equipment business and Intel was in the very early stage of semis industry.
- kalium-xyz 5y ago
  Philips is fractured and a shadow of its former self. They used to both make the machines and the chips now its ASML and NXP
  - berkes 5y ago
sangnoir 5y ago
Isn't ASML a dutch company? How is Europe not a leader? Unless you mean in wafer production/fabs or being on the forefront of shrinking process-nodes. Europe is behind in fabs and has historically underfunded the industry - understandable, as it had worked fine for a long time, with globalization, long supply chains and JIT inventories. Then came nativism, "Tariff Man" and a global pandemic, and Europe had to rethink its long-term strategy.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  There is more that goes inside a Fab than a litho tool. Granted it’s a major one, but a fabs has 400 process steps. See KLA Tencor, Applied Materials, TEL, Advantest, ASM, Hirata, Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, etc probably dozens more.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    Yes, and "dozens more" needs to be changed to hundreds more, with most not being known even to industry insiders. Lots of them are single vendor globally, and are Taiwanese. For example, FOUP cleaning machines are made only by Gudeng (as well as ultra low particle FOUPs themselves,) and don't think that "cleaning machine" is any much less sophisticated than other equipment. It's the size of a truck, made of space age materials to survive fluorines, and costs many megabucks.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  ASML is a supplier for one part of the overall process yes, but their core innovation is also somewhat limited. Their EUV technology is actually based on a license from the US DOE (from 1999: https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/ https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/), as part of a consortium of companies that were allowed to benefit from early US R&D into EUV. This is also why the US is able to require ASML to not export EUV machines to China. In my opinion from limited knowledge, being a leader means also being able to change the industry in significant ways. You could argue ASML has contributed to that but I think their dependence on US research indicates they aren’t independently set up to be a leader in this space.
dzonga 5y ago
they can easily do that. that's why I also think Intel will turn things around with it's fabs. You don't need to be manufacturing the latest node chips. Just a couple generations old, will do the trick for automotive, defense and non fashionable electronics. also somehow people forget chips these days are really powerful.
- eb0la 5y ago
  > also somehow people forget chips these days are really powerful. Only powerful ;-) ? Just found out some FPGAs have embedded processor cores with them (no need to generate them like in 2000) just because their customers already need that and they have enough gates to use. Other recent stuff like in the RPI2040 microcontroller is a way to code your own "independent" IO sub-programs that run in parallel by a dedicated procesor that does not interfere in your code. Hardware never stops to amaze me.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

brnt 5y ago

This factory won't be purchasing last gen stuff, more like 10 year old gen machines (I heard 25ish nm machines).

kenhwang 5y ago
Other sources[1] say its 65nm, and the chips won't even be used for automotive purposes. [1]: https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/bosch-opens-fab-2021-06/ https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/bosch-opens-...
- sorenjan 5y ago
  Here's a source from Bosch themselves saying "up to 65 nm", which I assume means 65 nm as the smallest feature. They're making "Application-specific integrated circuits (ASICs), and power semiconductors" mainly for the automotive industry, so they're probably counting on that being enough. And what a great time to start production. https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/300-mm-wafer-fab-in-dresden-229248.html https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/300-mm-wafer-f...
- nfin 5y ago
  the text says otherwise regarding automotive: "with output of automotive chips to follow from September" (so, you're correct for now until september, but sep. is soon already I would say)
lallysingh 5y ago
They'll probably making chips for Bosch parts. IIUC they don't do much advanced computational stuff.

stefan_ 5y ago

No ones using last-gen for automotive.

coolspot 5y ago
I was just establishing frame of reference for the investment amout. 1B is barely news-worthy.
antattack 5y ago
Tesla is using Navi 23 RDNA in their new S and X models. That's 7nm chip. NN accelerators will likely move to 16nm or better soon. However, you're right that most automotive chips and power electronics use 180 or 65nm process. EDIT: Mobile Eye, EyeQ5 ADAS SoC is already 7nm FinFET.
GloriousKoji 5y ago
Maybe for computational stuff but older/bigger process nodes are still very capable (and possibly better) for power related things.
iseanstevens 5y ago
Most cars still default to incandescent bulbs for many uses. Few cars attempt to understand the situation around them, beyond a rear camera and maybe ultrasonic reverse sensor for parking. Engine control units have gotten more complicated, but unless high end or EV, It’s mostly mid 90s tech. Disagree?
- jiofih 5y ago
  I dare you find an incandescent on any car designed in the last five years. It’s insanely inefficient.
  - developer93 5y ago
    And at least in Europe, outlawed since about 10 years

marcodiego 5y ago

Complete outsider doubt: every time I hear about chip manufacturing, somebody talks about ASML machines. Considering that many of the chips we use are built by ASML machines, why isn't Netherlands a top chip manufacturer?

madengr 5y ago
They probably don’t have the manpower. The Asian countries produce hardware engineers at 10x that of the west, and with a much larger population, have a vast talent pool.
icegreentea2 5y ago
The skills and risks in different parts of the chain are different. Having access to excellent photo-lithography machines is not enough to guarantee having an excellent foundry or process - that much should be evident from ASML supplying TSMC and Intel, and observing Intel's struggles with 10nm. The machines ASML produces allow you make ultra precise and tiny patterns of material. You still need to choose what those materials are, figure out how you're going to create the material (as in what dopants are you adding in what quantities), what your geometry actually is, and on and on and on.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
MangoCoffee 5y ago
different skillset. making equipment and running a profitable fab is like Apple and Orange. Intel with its years of experiences in semis industry and yet Intel is not in the semis equipment business and Intel was in the very early stage of semis industry.
kalium-xyz 5y ago
Philips is fractured and a shadow of its former self. They used to both make the machines and the chips now its ASML and NXP
- berkes 5y ago

sangnoir 5y ago

Isn't ASML a dutch company? How is Europe not a leader? Unless you mean in wafer production/fabs or being on the forefront of shrinking process-nodes. Europe is behind in fabs and has historically underfunded the industry - understandable, as it had worked fine for a long time, with globalization, long supply chains and JIT inventories. Then came nativism, "Tariff Man" and a global pandemic, and Europe had to rethink its long-term strategy.

systemvoltage 5y ago
There is more that goes inside a Fab than a litho tool. Granted it’s a major one, but a fabs has 400 process steps. See KLA Tencor, Applied Materials, TEL, Advantest, ASM, Hirata, Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, etc probably dozens more.
- baybal2 5y ago
  Yes, and "dozens more" needs to be changed to hundreds more, with most not being known even to industry insiders. Lots of them are single vendor globally, and are Taiwanese. For example, FOUP cleaning machines are made only by Gudeng (as well as ultra low particle FOUPs themselves,) and don't think that "cleaning machine" is any much less sophisticated than other equipment. It's the size of a truck, made of space age materials to survive fluorines, and costs many megabucks.
throwawaysea 5y ago
ASML is a supplier for one part of the overall process yes, but their core innovation is also somewhat limited. Their EUV technology is actually based on a license from the US DOE (from 1999: https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/ https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/), as part of a consortium of companies that were allowed to benefit from early US R&D into EUV. This is also why the US is able to require ASML to not export EUV machines to China. In my opinion from limited knowledge, being a leader means also being able to change the industry in significant ways. You could argue ASML has contributed to that but I think their dependence on US research indicates they aren’t independently set up to be a leader in this space.

dzonga 5y ago

they can easily do that. that's why I also think Intel will turn things around with it's fabs. You don't need to be manufacturing the latest node chips. Just a couple generations old, will do the trick for automotive, defense and non fashionable electronics. also somehow people forget chips these days are really powerful.

eb0la 5y ago
> also somehow people forget chips these days are really powerful. Only powerful ;-) ? Just found out some FPGAs have embedded processor cores with them (no need to generate them like in 2000) just because their customers already need that and they have enough gates to use. Other recent stuff like in the RPI2040 microcontroller is a way to code your own "independent" IO sub-programs that run in parallel by a dedicated procesor that does not interfere in your code. Hardware never stops to amaze me.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]