9 ms·

Counterpoint: be afraid of lawyers. They may not be able to win s judgment against you, but they can easily bankrupt you. Remember the case where a man criticiz

Counterpoint: be afraid of lawyers. They may not be able to win s judgment against you, but they can easily bankrupt you. Remember the case where a man criticized Proctorio and was hit with a SLAPP lawsuit aimed to silence him. He ended up spending 100k on legal costs and the case is only beginning. He would have been bankrupt despite being 100% legally in the right. Fortunately for him, EFF decided to support him afterwards. But do not count on EFF paying for your legal defence. Links: https://twitter.com/Linkletter/status/1385004344903290883 https://twitter.com/Linkletter/status/1385004344903290883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26900217 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26900217 https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-sues-proctorio-behalf-student-it-falsely-accused-copyright-infringement-get https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-sues-proctorio-behalf... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26898651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26898651

gk1 5y ago
A drawn out legal case can bankrupt you not only financially but mentally, too. The quantity and the length of emails sent by the author, in addition to the writeup, suggest they spent considerable time worrying about the situation. And it’s only been a few days. Imagine if this becomes a multi-year case.
devoutsalsa 5y ago
It goes both ways. Imagine Replit’s attorney going after OP. If OP didn’t take down the site, then suing them is going to be a huge expense & waste of time. Is Replit really gonna pay some corporate attorney $600-ish per hour to harass someone? You don’t even need a lawyer to show up in court and say “I’m a broke ass new grad, and these guys are trying to take down my website. I don’t even know why, but I’m dragging it out because I don’t like being bullied.” A good attorney would say “it costs nothing to demand we take this site down, but if the kid wants to fight us, do you really think it’ll be worth the effort? I’m expensive and this is not a threat to your business.” A bad attorney will just bleed Replit dry to accomplish very little. If you sue me, I’ll just say “ok, see you in court, let me know if you need anything for discovery“. You’ll be spending lots of money and I’ll be spending nothing. It’s only expensive for me if I get an attorney, and I don’t need one. What happens if we go to court and lose? I have to take down my website? If there’s one lawyer in town, they drive a Chevrolet. If there’s two lawyers in town, they both drive Cadillacs.
- msoad 5y ago
  The attorney will never say this. They will bill hours after hours because it is in their best interest.
  - tempestn 5y ago
    The attorney is bound to act in their client's best interest. A bad lawyer might do that, but a good lawyer will indeed tell their client when something isn't worth the cost, despite their own financial interest.
    - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
      The costs for replit isn’t the same as the costs for an individual. For a corporation the cost is already budgeted in and pre-taxes so why do they care?
      - devoutsalsa 5y ago
        Because it’s a time suck. Even if you have deep pockets, you have limited time. And potentially bad PR.
        Sebb767 5y ago
        By the time the threat is out, the PR damage is already impeding (see: this thread). And spending a few thousand dollar is simply not going to hurt a large corporation as much as it hurts an individual. By the way, this is similar for time: A large corporation sends a mail to the legal department and the case is taken care of. You need to find a lawyer, find the money, collect the evidence ...
      - munk-a 5y ago
        To be honest though - replit is still going to pay significantly more in legal fees than the individual. That all said they almost certainly bear that cost while the individual may not be able to do so.
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
>They may not be able to win a judgment against you, but they can easily bankrupt you. this depends on where the case is brought really. and if they can get any money from you there. Which is often partially effected by where you live.
qwerty456127 5y ago
> He would have been bankrupt despite being 100% legally in the right. Fortunately for him, EFF decided to support him afterwards. But do not count on EFF paying for your legal defence. Why? If you are 100% legally in the right then why wouldn't an entity with sufficient resources whose agenda is in line with that of yours support you? They will get all the expenses compensated after you+they win, won't they?
- okdjnfweonfe 5y ago
  because the legal system is human, a persuasive case is just as important as a legally backed case Also, can only field X amount of cases per period, unless they want to be dealing with burnout etc
- lesuorac 5y ago
  The loser only pays the winner's legal fees when required [1]. I'm not a lawyer but iiuc as long as you file in one of 21 states [2] you shouldn't expect to have to payout for making a pointless lawsuit. Anecdotally, there were a lot of lawsuits claiming fraud & etc in the recent US president elections and I haven't heard of a single case where they had to pay for losing them. [1]: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/attorney-fees-does-losing-side-30337.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/attorney-fees-does-l... [2]: https://www.medialaw.org/topics-page/anti-slapp https://www.medialaw.org/topics-page/anti-slapp
alerighi 5y ago
I don't really know how the civil trial works in the US, but in my country you are not required to participate to the process and thus have a lawyer (while it's required for a penal trial). You can decide to not defend yourself, that doesn't means that the other party wins, but that you don't take part in the process, and thus it's only the accusation that can provide proofs and similar things, and then the judge decides. In that case, I wouldn't even bother to try to defend myself, if he doesn't have any proof that something is copied as it seems, no way he will win. Worse case scenario and you are guilty, fine, you will have to take down your project? You will have to pay a compensation? How much can this be quantified? 100$? 1000$? I don't think more than that. And if you refuse to pay? They have to do another trial just to have your money. In the end, they will end up spending a lot of money and maybe in 10 years they hope to get something back (most probably nothing).
- toast0 5y ago
  In the US, if you don't show up, you lose by default. Sometimes you can get that default judgement vacated if you show up later, but only if you can show good a good reason, such as you weren't aware of the case because the plantiff did not properly serve notice, etc.
Aeolun 5y ago
How does this even work? If someone sues me, but they have no case, and I’m not interested, why would I even defend myself. Even presenting no evidence the judge would rule in my favour.
- greenyoda 5y ago
  If you fail to appear for a court proceeding, the judge will decide in favor of the plaintiff (the person suing you): > Default judgment is a binding judgment in favor of either party based on some failure to take action by the other party. Most often, it is a judgment in favor of a plaintiff when the defendant has not responded to a summons or has failed to appear before a court of law. The failure to take action is the default. The default judgment is the relief requested in the party's original petition. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_judgment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_judgment
lars 5y ago
Note: Ian Linkletter, the one who had spent 100k in april, is not the guy being backed by EFF. Linkletter has a gofundme here: https://ca.gofundme.com/f/stand-against-proctorio https://ca.gofundme.com/f/stand-against-proctorio I've donated, and would recommend others do the same.
raducu 5y ago
Not just the lawyers, but future employers as well. It doesn't matter what the value proposition was, this will be a stain on his name "the guy who open sources the stuff he likes in our design/projects"
eointierney 5y ago
Countercounter point: do not be afraid of lawyers, be _very_ afraid of legal systems.

gk1 5y ago

A drawn out legal case can bankrupt you not only financially but mentally, too. The quantity and the length of emails sent by the author, in addition to the writeup, suggest they spent considerable time worrying about the situation. And it’s only been a few days. Imagine if this becomes a multi-year case.

devoutsalsa 5y ago

It goes both ways. Imagine Replit’s attorney going after OP. If OP didn’t take down the site, then suing them is going to be a huge expense & waste of time. Is Replit really gonna pay some corporate attorney $600-ish per hour to harass someone? You don’t even need a lawyer to show up in court and say “I’m a broke ass new grad, and these guys are trying to take down my website. I don’t even know why, but I’m dragging it out because I don’t like being bullied.” A good attorney would say “it costs nothing to demand we take this site down, but if the kid wants to fight us, do you really think it’ll be worth the effort? I’m expensive and this is not a threat to your business.” A bad attorney will just bleed Replit dry to accomplish very little. If you sue me, I’ll just say “ok, see you in court, let me know if you need anything for discovery“. You’ll be spending lots of money and I’ll be spending nothing. It’s only expensive for me if I get an attorney, and I don’t need one. What happens if we go to court and lose? I have to take down my website? If there’s one lawyer in town, they drive a Chevrolet. If there’s two lawyers in town, they both drive Cadillacs.

msoad 5y ago
The attorney will never say this. They will bill hours after hours because it is in their best interest.
- tempestn 5y ago
  The attorney is bound to act in their client's best interest. A bad lawyer might do that, but a good lawyer will indeed tell their client when something isn't worth the cost, despite their own financial interest.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
    The costs for replit isn’t the same as the costs for an individual. For a corporation the cost is already budgeted in and pre-taxes so why do they care?
    - devoutsalsa 5y ago
      Because it’s a time suck. Even if you have deep pockets, you have limited time. And potentially bad PR.
      - Sebb767 5y ago
        By the time the threat is out, the PR damage is already impeding (see: this thread). And spending a few thousand dollar is simply not going to hurt a large corporation as much as it hurts an individual. By the way, this is similar for time: A large corporation sends a mail to the legal department and the case is taken care of. You need to find a lawyer, find the money, collect the evidence ...
    - munk-a 5y ago
      To be honest though - replit is still going to pay significantly more in legal fees than the individual. That all said they almost certainly bear that cost while the individual may not be able to do so.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

>They may not be able to win a judgment against you, but they can easily bankrupt you. this depends on where the case is brought really. and if they can get any money from you there. Which is often partially effected by where you live.

qwerty456127 5y ago

> He would have been bankrupt despite being 100% legally in the right. Fortunately for him, EFF decided to support him afterwards. But do not count on EFF paying for your legal defence. Why? If you are 100% legally in the right then why wouldn't an entity with sufficient resources whose agenda is in line with that of yours support you? They will get all the expenses compensated after you+they win, won't they?

okdjnfweonfe 5y ago
because the legal system is human, a persuasive case is just as important as a legally backed case Also, can only field X amount of cases per period, unless they want to be dealing with burnout etc
lesuorac 5y ago
The loser only pays the winner's legal fees when required [1]. I'm not a lawyer but iiuc as long as you file in one of 21 states [2] you shouldn't expect to have to payout for making a pointless lawsuit. Anecdotally, there were a lot of lawsuits claiming fraud & etc in the recent US president elections and I haven't heard of a single case where they had to pay for losing them. [1]: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/attorney-fees-does-losing-side-30337.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/attorney-fees-does-l... [2]: https://www.medialaw.org/topics-page/anti-slapp https://www.medialaw.org/topics-page/anti-slapp

alerighi 5y ago

I don't really know how the civil trial works in the US, but in my country you are not required to participate to the process and thus have a lawyer (while it's required for a penal trial). You can decide to not defend yourself, that doesn't means that the other party wins, but that you don't take part in the process, and thus it's only the accusation that can provide proofs and similar things, and then the judge decides. In that case, I wouldn't even bother to try to defend myself, if he doesn't have any proof that something is copied as it seems, no way he will win. Worse case scenario and you are guilty, fine, you will have to take down your project? You will have to pay a compensation? How much can this be quantified? 100$? 1000$? I don't think more than that. And if you refuse to pay? They have to do another trial just to have your money. In the end, they will end up spending a lot of money and maybe in 10 years they hope to get something back (most probably nothing).

toast0 5y ago
In the US, if you don't show up, you lose by default. Sometimes you can get that default judgement vacated if you show up later, but only if you can show good a good reason, such as you weren't aware of the case because the plantiff did not properly serve notice, etc.

Aeolun 5y ago

How does this even work? If someone sues me, but they have no case, and I’m not interested, why would I even defend myself. Even presenting no evidence the judge would rule in my favour.

greenyoda 5y ago
If you fail to appear for a court proceeding, the judge will decide in favor of the plaintiff (the person suing you): > Default judgment is a binding judgment in favor of either party based on some failure to take action by the other party. Most often, it is a judgment in favor of a plaintiff when the defendant has not responded to a summons or has failed to appear before a court of law. The failure to take action is the default. The default judgment is the relief requested in the party's original petition. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_judgment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_judgment

lars 5y ago

Note: Ian Linkletter, the one who had spent 100k in april, is not the guy being backed by EFF. Linkletter has a gofundme here: https://ca.gofundme.com/f/stand-against-proctorio https://ca.gofundme.com/f/stand-against-proctorio I've donated, and would recommend others do the same.

raducu 5y ago

Not just the lawyers, but future employers as well. It doesn't matter what the value proposition was, this will be a stain on his name "the guy who open sources the stuff he likes in our design/projects"

eointierney 5y ago

Countercounter point: do not be afraid of lawyers, be _very_ afraid of legal systems.