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> I would have just given up and bought a new iPhone If people didn't already realize that most of people hanging around on HN have the top 10% of the world's

> I would have just given up and bought a new iPhone If people didn't already realize that most of people hanging around on HN have the top 10% of the world's wealth, this made things clearer than ever (the phone in question costs around 1000 EUR) Makes all the conversations around finance here make so much more sense.

gnopgnip 5y ago
In Germany phone insurance is very common. You would just pay a deductible of 50-100 eur
1123581321 5y ago
I wouldn't expect many in the 90% to buy an expensive iPhone in the first place. It's a narrow range that would buy one but not a replacement. Regardless, kudos to them for persevering. As another user said, many people would assume the device to be inoperable, even if findable, so not try.
- joe-collins 5y ago
  There are a lot of people in the US who buy iPhones (or comparable Android equivalents) on 2-year payment plans with carrier lock-in. Many can afford an extra $40 per month, but don't have the savings to drop $1000 in one go. > In 2018, the median earnings for full-time, year-round cashiers were $22,109, compared with $35,301 for retail salespersons and $42,421 for first-line supervisors of retail salespersons. > In contrast, the median earnings for all full-time, year-round workers was $48,565 in 2018. I've spent ten years working retail here in California, and I'll offer my anecdata: a great number of even those cashiers own iPhones! Ten million people work retail in the US making no more than ~$40k, and that's a population that demonstrably owns iPhones but is hard-pressed to replace them on short notice. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/profile-of-the-retail-workforce.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/profile-of-th...
  - Tenoke 5y ago
    That's less common in Europe (and Berlin specifically). I'm guessing even less so for something like the 12 Pro.
  - 1123581321 5y ago
    Good numbers/experience. I've usually seen people in such situations buy refurb or a cheaper model for the rest of that period if their insurance policy doesn't give them a refurb. That's moving the goalposts a bit from buying another iPhone 12, admittedly.
kirubakaran 5y ago
To be fair, HN is also confused why you wouldn't just eat cake.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
If you are making €200,000 per year, your time is worth around €100 per hour. Thus if this is going to take more than 10 hours, it is not worth your time.
- jen20 5y ago
  This is, of course, only true if you can bill someone for those ten hours.
  - pengaru 5y ago
    And even if you could, you should be billing them at a substantially higher rate than your normal salary already consuming your full-time bandwidth. These extra hours are precious and increasingly scarce bandwidth for self, and fast overlap into exceedingly inconvenient territory.
- driverdan 5y ago
  This doesn't make sense. You don't work 24h a day. I highly doubt they went a day without pay to get the phone back. Even then it would still be more than a full day's worth of pay at €200,000 per year.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    It makes sense on average, assuming 1) that the activity is at least as unpleasant as going to work, and 2) that you negotiated your job hours to your satisfaction. If I spend enough days on annoying wastes of time, I don't want to lose all my free time, so I'm going to need to reduce how many days I go to work. And since that means doing less work, I can only push that so far before I have to start taking those days unpaid. ("It's more important to get the money than to have those days off" would mean I should have just negotiated more pay and less vacation from the start, so that's incompatible with the premise.) Maybe I could have taken this one day in stride and ignored it. But maybe I was already on the edge of needing a break, and this pushes me to take a multi-week sabbatical. On average, in a situation like this, 1 day wasted on annoying tasks gets traded for about 1 day of labor. And this idea doesn't require you to be able to control your hours as much as you want, just a few percent is enough to make the logic work.
GhostVII 5y ago
I suspect the vast majority of people on HN are in the top 1% globally. People don't realise how high incomes in the US are relative to the rest of the world.
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  "Globally" does a lot of the work here, though. 1% of world's population is a mid-sized country's worth of people.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > People don't realise how high incomes in the US are relative to the rest of the world. Gross definitely, but net (after taxes, healthcare, housing and other fixed costs)... not so sure. High CoL - seriously even as someone who lives in Munich, US housing prices are utterly incomprehensible, just how the fuck do y'all even manage to survive?! -, high costs for transportation, the utter madness that is US healthcare, hundreds of dollars for cable TV, having to save for your pension or student loans. I'd wager that even after accounting for taxes, most Europeans have more money in their pocket than Americans working in the same field. (And obviously, all of us have it vastly better than 99% of people in Africa)
  - ascari 5y ago
    I can’t speak for other fields but tech scene in Germany and EU is a joke and there is no way one’s compensation matches US. I had a job offer in Munich and considering how low the quality of housing is you end up still paying more than €1300 for a 1 bed flat. (This was my market search back in 2018)
    - mschuster91 5y ago
      What the fuck, were you searching at Marienplatz in the city center? I mean, I'm a born and raised Munich dude, 1300€ for a 1BR sounds like someone attempted to rip you off - or you were on the hunt for a fully furnished apartment which is ... a questionable decision in itself.
  - 5y ago
14 5y ago
Yes that phone would cost me about 2 weeks pay. Sounds pathetic compared to some of the people around here but I actually have a very high quality of life in my opinion, just no iPhone 12. For 2 weeks pay I am going to make a solid effort for sure. On top of the cost, most people these days despite knowing the importance of regular backups, will not do so and most likely have some photos on the photos or information on the phone they can not lose so getting the phone back would be important in that aspect as well.
lifeformed 5y ago
Top 10%? More like top 1%.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  The global 1% are people with about $900k in wealth.
  - bostik 5y ago
    Judging by the comments, or at least by those who comment (semi-)actively, a surprisingly sizeable fraction of HN actives do fit into that bucket. And for a properly demoralising angle, that level of wealth is still a far cry from being fully financially independent.
    - lifeformed 5y ago
      > And for a properly demoralising angle, that level of wealth is still a far cry from being fully financially independent. Really? I feel like if you had 900k in cash, and no debts, you could easily live freely. Maybe not the ultimate lifestyle, but pretty comfortably, even in the US. That's around 50k a year in investments. Even with a partner and maybe even a kid or two, you could get by and have the time to build up your own independent income sources, unless I'm wildly overestimated how much the average person wants to spend to live decently.
      - mgkimsal 5y ago
        > feel like if you had 900k in cash, and no debts, you could easily live freely. Maybe not the ultimate lifestyle, but pretty comfortably, even in the US. That's around 50k a year in investments. It's still cutting it very close. 900k in cash will go by faster than expected due to inflation. A single person in a rural or low COL area for under $2k/month between rent/food/utilities. This isn't really leaving much room for hobbies/enjoyment. I would say that's a bit above subsistence level. Rounding up, that might be $30k/year in basic living, which, in theory would last 30 years. Inflation's going to eat in to that - I can't say how much for sure, but I have a hard time seeing most people make $900k in cash last more than 10-15 years. There will be too many temptations to spend chunks, and there will be legitimate emergencies (thinking primarily of unexpected health stuff). "50k year in investments" - that 900k would have to be invested moderately aggressively to ensure 50k/year coming off while maintaining most of the principal. What may be more interesting is seeing what other people might view as "low bar" COL numbers. My mental model for much of the low COL areas of the US would be around $2k/month for a single person to live without being at 'rock bottom', basing mostly on what I see around me as lowish rent, food and utility numbers. I've no doubt some people stretch that number lower, and two people sharing a space would cut the number lower as well. I'd think 2 adults could get by on $3k at 'above subsistence levels' in many areas for a long time. Rounding up a tag, that might put you closer to $40k/year, but you'd still not make that $900k last a long time, between inflation and emergencies. EDIT: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-much-money-you-need-t_b_9728876 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-much-money-you-need-t_b_9... - from a few years ago, there were a lot of numbers in the $40k-$60k range for various spots in the US.

gnopgnip 5y ago

In Germany phone insurance is very common. You would just pay a deductible of 50-100 eur

1123581321 5y ago

I wouldn't expect many in the 90% to buy an expensive iPhone in the first place. It's a narrow range that would buy one but not a replacement. Regardless, kudos to them for persevering. As another user said, many people would assume the device to be inoperable, even if findable, so not try.

joe-collins 5y ago
There are a lot of people in the US who buy iPhones (or comparable Android equivalents) on 2-year payment plans with carrier lock-in. Many can afford an extra $40 per month, but don't have the savings to drop $1000 in one go. > In 2018, the median earnings for full-time, year-round cashiers were $22,109, compared with $35,301 for retail salespersons and $42,421 for first-line supervisors of retail salespersons. > In contrast, the median earnings for all full-time, year-round workers was $48,565 in 2018. I've spent ten years working retail here in California, and I'll offer my anecdata: a great number of even those cashiers own iPhones! Ten million people work retail in the US making no more than ~$40k, and that's a population that demonstrably owns iPhones but is hard-pressed to replace them on short notice. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/profile-of-the-retail-workforce.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/profile-of-th...
- Tenoke 5y ago
  That's less common in Europe (and Berlin specifically). I'm guessing even less so for something like the 12 Pro.
- 1123581321 5y ago
  Good numbers/experience. I've usually seen people in such situations buy refurb or a cheaper model for the rest of that period if their insurance policy doesn't give them a refurb. That's moving the goalposts a bit from buying another iPhone 12, admittedly.

kirubakaran 5y ago

To be fair, HN is also confused why you wouldn't just eat cake.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago

If you are making €200,000 per year, your time is worth around €100 per hour. Thus if this is going to take more than 10 hours, it is not worth your time.

jen20 5y ago
This is, of course, only true if you can bill someone for those ten hours.
- pengaru 5y ago
  And even if you could, you should be billing them at a substantially higher rate than your normal salary already consuming your full-time bandwidth. These extra hours are precious and increasingly scarce bandwidth for self, and fast overlap into exceedingly inconvenient territory.
driverdan 5y ago
This doesn't make sense. You don't work 24h a day. I highly doubt they went a day without pay to get the phone back. Even then it would still be more than a full day's worth of pay at €200,000 per year.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  It makes sense on average, assuming 1) that the activity is at least as unpleasant as going to work, and 2) that you negotiated your job hours to your satisfaction. If I spend enough days on annoying wastes of time, I don't want to lose all my free time, so I'm going to need to reduce how many days I go to work. And since that means doing less work, I can only push that so far before I have to start taking those days unpaid. ("It's more important to get the money than to have those days off" would mean I should have just negotiated more pay and less vacation from the start, so that's incompatible with the premise.) Maybe I could have taken this one day in stride and ignored it. But maybe I was already on the edge of needing a break, and this pushes me to take a multi-week sabbatical. On average, in a situation like this, 1 day wasted on annoying tasks gets traded for about 1 day of labor. And this idea doesn't require you to be able to control your hours as much as you want, just a few percent is enough to make the logic work.

GhostVII 5y ago

I suspect the vast majority of people on HN are in the top 1% globally. People don't realise how high incomes in the US are relative to the rest of the world.

TeMPOraL 5y ago
"Globally" does a lot of the work here, though. 1% of world's population is a mid-sized country's worth of people.
mschuster91 5y ago
> People don't realise how high incomes in the US are relative to the rest of the world. Gross definitely, but net (after taxes, healthcare, housing and other fixed costs)... not so sure. High CoL - seriously even as someone who lives in Munich, US housing prices are utterly incomprehensible, just how the fuck do y'all even manage to survive?! -, high costs for transportation, the utter madness that is US healthcare, hundreds of dollars for cable TV, having to save for your pension or student loans. I'd wager that even after accounting for taxes, most Europeans have more money in their pocket than Americans working in the same field. (And obviously, all of us have it vastly better than 99% of people in Africa)
- ascari 5y ago
  I can’t speak for other fields but tech scene in Germany and EU is a joke and there is no way one’s compensation matches US. I had a job offer in Munich and considering how low the quality of housing is you end up still paying more than €1300 for a 1 bed flat. (This was my market search back in 2018)
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    What the fuck, were you searching at Marienplatz in the city center? I mean, I'm a born and raised Munich dude, 1300€ for a 1BR sounds like someone attempted to rip you off - or you were on the hunt for a fully furnished apartment which is ... a questionable decision in itself.
- 5y ago

14 5y ago

Yes that phone would cost me about 2 weeks pay. Sounds pathetic compared to some of the people around here but I actually have a very high quality of life in my opinion, just no iPhone 12. For 2 weeks pay I am going to make a solid effort for sure. On top of the cost, most people these days despite knowing the importance of regular backups, will not do so and most likely have some photos on the photos or information on the phone they can not lose so getting the phone back would be important in that aspect as well.

lifeformed 5y ago

Top 10%? More like top 1%.

Dylan16807 5y ago
The global 1% are people with about $900k in wealth.
- bostik 5y ago
  Judging by the comments, or at least by those who comment (semi-)actively, a surprisingly sizeable fraction of HN actives do fit into that bucket. And for a properly demoralising angle, that level of wealth is still a far cry from being fully financially independent.
  - lifeformed 5y ago
    > And for a properly demoralising angle, that level of wealth is still a far cry from being fully financially independent. Really? I feel like if you had 900k in cash, and no debts, you could easily live freely. Maybe not the ultimate lifestyle, but pretty comfortably, even in the US. That's around 50k a year in investments. Even with a partner and maybe even a kid or two, you could get by and have the time to build up your own independent income sources, unless I'm wildly overestimated how much the average person wants to spend to live decently.
    - mgkimsal 5y ago
      > feel like if you had 900k in cash, and no debts, you could easily live freely. Maybe not the ultimate lifestyle, but pretty comfortably, even in the US. That's around 50k a year in investments. It's still cutting it very close. 900k in cash will go by faster than expected due to inflation. A single person in a rural or low COL area for under $2k/month between rent/food/utilities. This isn't really leaving much room for hobbies/enjoyment. I would say that's a bit above subsistence level. Rounding up, that might be $30k/year in basic living, which, in theory would last 30 years. Inflation's going to eat in to that - I can't say how much for sure, but I have a hard time seeing most people make $900k in cash last more than 10-15 years. There will be too many temptations to spend chunks, and there will be legitimate emergencies (thinking primarily of unexpected health stuff). "50k year in investments" - that 900k would have to be invested moderately aggressively to ensure 50k/year coming off while maintaining most of the principal. What may be more interesting is seeing what other people might view as "low bar" COL numbers. My mental model for much of the low COL areas of the US would be around $2k/month for a single person to live without being at 'rock bottom', basing mostly on what I see around me as lowish rent, food and utility numbers. I've no doubt some people stretch that number lower, and two people sharing a space would cut the number lower as well. I'd think 2 adults could get by on $3k at 'above subsistence levels' in many areas for a long time. Rounding up a tag, that might put you closer to $40k/year, but you'd still not make that $900k last a long time, between inflation and emergencies. EDIT: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-much-money-you-need-t_b_9728876 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-much-money-you-need-t_b_9... - from a few years ago, there were a lot of numbers in the $40k-$60k range for various spots in the US.