6 ms·

Developer of aluminum-ion battery claims it charges faster than lithium-ion

54 points by elorant 5y ago

wbl 5y ago
I don't understand the electrochemistry that's supposed to be happening. Is it aluminum that is being oxidized and reduced? If so where do the electrons go when they return to the circuit?
- LeifCarrotson 5y ago
  The article doesn't mention the cathode, it just says the electrolyte is urea (CO(NH2)2) into which you can dissolve aluminum chloride (AlCl3) or, more precisely, an ionized variant like AlCl4- or Al2Cl7-. Changing between those two frees up some electrons. The cathode is probably lithium manganese dioxide, it changes between MnO2 and Li+ and LiMnO2. An aluminum-ion electrochemistry reaction is described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-ion_battery#Electrochemistry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-ion_battery#Electroc... Note that it's oxidation as in oxidation/reduction, using chloride ions, not oxidation as in oxygen. Turning aluminum oxide into aluminum is done with acid/base reactions and high temperatures, I don't think it's achievable with rechargeable electrochemistry.
longstation 5y ago
I happened to read the same information but reported by another publisher [1]. In that article, it points out that the energy density is only 60% of a traditional lithium-ion cell, but that disadvantage is offset by not having to use much cooling device like the lithium-ion ones. The same information is represented pretty differently in this article, leading people to believe the energy density is better: "The new battery cells are claimed to deliver far more energy density than current lithium-ion batteries, without the cooling, heating or rare-earth problems they face." Still, I think is an encouraging news and I really love, just not quite a fan of the way they present it. [1] - https://newatlas.com/energy/gmg-graphene-aluminium-ion-battery/ https://newatlas.com/energy/gmg-graphene-aluminium-ion-batte... [edited for grammar]
- NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
  I wonder if the apparent contradiction can be explained by the difference between the energy density of a cell (i.e. a single instance) vs of a battery (i.e. a practical aggregation of a number of cells)? I don't know how much space the cooling etc. takes up in a practical lithium-ion battery.
  - zardo 5y ago
    In this case, energy density refers to the energy per unit mass, not volume. But your point still applies, for application in a vehicle you need to compare the mass of the complete battery systems, not just the cells in isolation.
    - londons_explore 5y ago
      As battery designs are getting better, the difference is getting smaller and smaller. Turns out cooling systems can have very thin tubes with very thin walls.
- mhandley 5y ago
  You could easily imagine an EV with a hybrid battery pack consisting of 2/3 Li-Ion and 1/3 Al-Ion. You pay very little in range for the combination compared to a Li_Ion pack, but you gain flexibility. You then discharge the Al-Ion part of the pack first, partly because it has better longevity across cycles, but mostly because this then lets you charge that empty third of the pack very quickly giving enough range for an extra hour or two of driving.
  - adrianN 5y ago
    Delivering that much power seems pretty difficult to me. EVs already charge at dozens of kW. How high do you have to make the voltages to keep the cables a reasonable diameter when you want to charge in the Megawatt range?
    - 5y ago
jokoon 5y ago
I've heard that whatever you do, it's hardly impossible to make better batteries because you can't fill matter with more electrons than with lithium.
- Blammar 5y ago
  That's an interesting comment that might explain why we are using lithium instead of some other metal. Do you have a reference that discusses this?
  - Gibbon1 5y ago
    Last time I looked what I read was lithium doesn't change size when it gains or loses and electron. Other metals the ions change size which damages the electrodes.
  - jokoon 5y ago
    Heard that from an energy consultant, Jean Marc Jancovici, in his numerous interventions and conferences.
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  Yet batteries have steadily gotten better even since the introduction of lithium.
- flavius29663 5y ago
  Really? If that is the limiting factor, then there is a lot of hope, because lithium is a tiny portion of a battery weight and volume, something like 1%. It means we could theoretically improve the batteries to hold say 30% lithium, for a 30x improvement in density!
- tass 5y ago
  You have to choose your trade offs. Aluminium is abundant compared to lithium, and if the charging times are as good as they’re saying it might be worth the loss of capacity.
- jim90 5y ago
zihotki 5y ago
There were a lot of news in last decade about many breakthrough but they are still not on the market. So don't raise your hopes too high, time will show whether it's a breakthrough or just yet another small step forward.
- flavius29663 5y ago
  I would say on the contrary. The breakthroughs do have visible results in the regular batteries. The Li-Ion of 2010 are nowhere near as reliable and powerful as the ones today. They're called the same, but they're very different. https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/19/bloombergnef-lithium-ion-battery-cell-densities-have-almost-tripled-since-2010/ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/19/bloombergnef-lithium-io...
maga 5y ago
They are talking about impregnating graphene with atoms of Aluminium and getting it in production by the end of the year. Yet I was under impression that we do not yet have a viable method for producing graphene on an industrial scale, did I miss something? Do we have such production capabilities or do the batteries in question require so little of it that the existing tech is enough?
- virtue3 5y ago
  Making particles of it is easy, making sheets is where it is still hard, so that's probably the bit that you're missing. https://www.americanscientist.org/article/mass-producing-graphene https://www.americanscientist.org/article/mass-producing-gra...
  - maga 5y ago
    I assumed they would need sheets of it for batteries, but if it works for them with just particles all the better.
- ajuc 5y ago
  We can produce graphene at scale but it's not big uniform layers but small randomly oriented pieces. Big uniform layers are prohibitively expansive (and you have to provide your substrate to them)
- Jiocus 5y ago
  The term is impregmating in this context and process :)
  - maga 5y ago
    Oh my, I never knew there was a different word for it, thank you!
meepmorp 5y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27153279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27153279 Seems to be the same content at a different site.
- Animats 5y ago
  Ah. It is the same Australian battery "breakthrough" as last month. Here's the company (Graphene Manufacturing Group) web site.[1] They're publicly traded. Their actual products are some kind of energy saving paint, and a lubricant. 15-20 employees. They claim they have coin cell prototypes now, and will have them for sale for testing purposes by the end of 2021.[2] If they actually deliver on that, they're for real. [1] https://graphenemg.com/ https://graphenemg.com/ [2] https://www.graphene-info.com/gmg-updates-graphene-aluminum-ion-batteries-performance https://www.graphene-info.com/gmg-updates-graphene-aluminum-...
aplummer 5y ago
One of the side-interesting things about this article, is how Australia: - massive net energy exporter - ridiculous gas and coal infra + reserves - ridiculous renewable potential - Comparatively very little national debt and low borowing costs ... has prohibitively expensive energy prices.
- johnzim 5y ago
  To be fair, the reserves are largely a national security requirement given the risk of potential Chinese aggression (trade or otherwise). Given its remoteness, Australia is quite vulnerable to blockade. While the country is of immense size, global shipping lanes are consolidated and pretty easy to block.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
marcodiego 5y ago
What is missing in all these new "breakthrough battery" articles: what are the drawbacks?
marcodiego 5y ago
> deliver 7000 Watts per kilogram in energy density. Isn't "Watts per kilogram" a unit of power density? Definitely hurts the credibility of the article.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
datameta 5y ago
Edit: False assumption of atomic radius lead me to make an invalid conclusion On paper the top-level explanation of the technology makes sense by virtue of an Aluminum ion being able to transfer 3 electrons vs Lithium's single electron thereby achieving a faster discharge rate seems plausible. However when taking into account molecular weight it becomes a different story, at least as far as energy density is concerned. Lithium's molecular weight is 7 while Aluminum's is 27. So we'd be using 28.5% more mass to achieve the same energy density. And there is also the increased number of Aluminum's orbital shells to take into account so more volume would be require vs Lithium. How much this can be offset by the apparent lack of need for a heating/cooling system for vehicle tier applications remains to be seen. I'm guardedly cautious but hopeful.
- virtue3 5y ago
  Aluminum has 3x the thermal conductivity of lithium and half the thermal expansion, so this could result in a larger space savings. The weight is an issue but if we end up with less issues around dendrites etc, it might not matter? I imagine that larger cell sizes and lack of need for cooling might offset the perceived weight issues. I'd also be very curious about the longevity of the battery as well vs lithium-ion. I imagine for the automotive space (air running over the battery could be all it needs to cool) this could be huge, but maybe not so much for cellphones/aerospace!
  - pengaru 5y ago
    > I imagine that larger cell sizes and lack of need for cooling might offset the perceived weight issues. Have you ever looked at Tesla's vehicle cooling system visualizations? It's not like by eliminating need for cooling in the battery you'd be able to omit the vehicle's cooling system. The coolant circulates through practically every active component of the vehicle, and regardless of battery requirements you'll still need sufficient thermal mass circulating to not overheat any of the other high-power components capable of producing a lot of heat like the motor and controller. Though maybe there could be some reduction in coolant volume by treating the less thermally sensitive battery as more of a heat sink, by continuing to circulate coolant through it. Still, I don't imagine it'd be a huge weight savings, but may help stabilize temperatures.
topspin 5y ago
Perhaps someone can help me with a question. I read this and look for a elementary explanation of the operation of an aluminum-ion battery. Wikipedia yields this[1]: "Aluminium-ion batteries are a class of rechargeable battery in which aluminium ions provide energy by flowing from the positive electrode of the battery, the anode, to the negative electrode, the cathode. When recharging, aluminium ions return to the negative electrode, and can exchange three electrons per ion." This description appears self contradictory. On one hand the battery "provides energy" when ions are "flowing from" the anode to the cathode. When recharging, the opposite of "providing energy," one should then expect to be told that the reverse happens; the ions would return to the anode. Yet the Wikipedia description tells us the opposite when recharging; "aluminium ions return to the negative electrode [cathode]." Nowhere in this cycle, according to this description, are the ions returned to the anode. What am I missing? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-ion_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-ion_battery
- Arnavion 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aluminium-ion_battery&action=historysubmit&type=revision&diff=1025327818&oldid=1025298250 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aluminium-ion_bat... They probably forgot to also change the second sentence.
- tape_measure 5y ago
  The terms anode and cathode are reversed. Mnemonic device: Anode - ants - bad - negative Cathode - cats - good - positive
  - topspin 5y ago
    This is the opposite of what I understand: anode positive, cathode negative. Google (and multiple other sources) confirm my understanding: an·ode /ˈanōd/ the positively charged electrode by which the electrons leave a device. cath·ode /ˈkaTHˌōd/ the negatively charged electrode by which electrons enter an electrical device.
    - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
isoprophlex 5y ago
"Up to 70 times faster charging"... Good luck building a charging network that allows charging a bunch of cars at ~1 MW each...
- gpm 5y ago
  Tesla's apparently been building that for their semi's? https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-megacharger-charging-port-close-up-look/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-megacharger-charging-po... In general it doesn't seem like an issue. Your local grid may or may not be able to directly load balance that much energy, but even if it can't, you judge add some storage batteries at your charging station to deal with the load balancing.
debacle 5y ago
In a world of renewable energy, the battery technology that wins will not be based on charge time, density, or longevity but on cost and the ability to be efficiently recycled.
- alexanderdmitri 5y ago
  I think you're right. I could see a future where the charge station ends up just swapping batteries with you (kinda like the way propane tanks work in some places). Give them your used one and they give you a charged one. Adjust for power left on the trade-in and quick quality checks and validations on the units being swapped.

54 points by elorant 5y ago

wbl 5y ago

I don't understand the electrochemistry that's supposed to be happening. Is it aluminum that is being oxidized and reduced? If so where do the electrons go when they return to the circuit?

LeifCarrotson 5y ago
The article doesn't mention the cathode, it just says the electrolyte is urea (CO(NH2)2) into which you can dissolve aluminum chloride (AlCl3) or, more precisely, an ionized variant like AlCl4- or Al2Cl7-. Changing between those two frees up some electrons. The cathode is probably lithium manganese dioxide, it changes between MnO2 and Li+ and LiMnO2. An aluminum-ion electrochemistry reaction is described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-ion_battery#Electrochemistry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-ion_battery#Electroc... Note that it's oxidation as in oxidation/reduction, using chloride ions, not oxidation as in oxygen. Turning aluminum oxide into aluminum is done with acid/base reactions and high temperatures, I don't think it's achievable with rechargeable electrochemistry.

longstation 5y ago

I happened to read the same information but reported by another publisher [1]. In that article, it points out that the energy density is only 60% of a traditional lithium-ion cell, but that disadvantage is offset by not having to use much cooling device like the lithium-ion ones. The same information is represented pretty differently in this article, leading people to believe the energy density is better: "The new battery cells are claimed to deliver far more energy density than current lithium-ion batteries, without the cooling, heating or rare-earth problems they face." Still, I think is an encouraging news and I really love, just not quite a fan of the way they present it. [1] - https://newatlas.com/energy/gmg-graphene-aluminium-ion-battery/ https://newatlas.com/energy/gmg-graphene-aluminium-ion-batte... [edited for grammar]

NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
I wonder if the apparent contradiction can be explained by the difference between the energy density of a cell (i.e. a single instance) vs of a battery (i.e. a practical aggregation of a number of cells)? I don't know how much space the cooling etc. takes up in a practical lithium-ion battery.
- zardo 5y ago
  In this case, energy density refers to the energy per unit mass, not volume. But your point still applies, for application in a vehicle you need to compare the mass of the complete battery systems, not just the cells in isolation.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    As battery designs are getting better, the difference is getting smaller and smaller. Turns out cooling systems can have very thin tubes with very thin walls.
mhandley 5y ago
You could easily imagine an EV with a hybrid battery pack consisting of 2/3 Li-Ion and 1/3 Al-Ion. You pay very little in range for the combination compared to a Li_Ion pack, but you gain flexibility. You then discharge the Al-Ion part of the pack first, partly because it has better longevity across cycles, but mostly because this then lets you charge that empty third of the pack very quickly giving enough range for an extra hour or two of driving.
- adrianN 5y ago
  Delivering that much power seems pretty difficult to me. EVs already charge at dozens of kW. How high do you have to make the voltages to keep the cables a reasonable diameter when you want to charge in the Megawatt range?
  - 5y ago

jokoon 5y ago

I've heard that whatever you do, it's hardly impossible to make better batteries because you can't fill matter with more electrons than with lithium.

Blammar 5y ago
That's an interesting comment that might explain why we are using lithium instead of some other metal. Do you have a reference that discusses this?
- Gibbon1 5y ago
  Last time I looked what I read was lithium doesn't change size when it gains or loses and electron. Other metals the ions change size which damages the electrodes.
- jokoon 5y ago
  Heard that from an energy consultant, Jean Marc Jancovici, in his numerous interventions and conferences.
gameswithgo 5y ago
Yet batteries have steadily gotten better even since the introduction of lithium.
flavius29663 5y ago
Really? If that is the limiting factor, then there is a lot of hope, because lithium is a tiny portion of a battery weight and volume, something like 1%. It means we could theoretically improve the batteries to hold say 30% lithium, for a 30x improvement in density!
tass 5y ago
You have to choose your trade offs. Aluminium is abundant compared to lithium, and if the charging times are as good as they’re saying it might be worth the loss of capacity.
jim90 5y ago

zihotki 5y ago

There were a lot of news in last decade about many breakthrough but they are still not on the market. So don't raise your hopes too high, time will show whether it's a breakthrough or just yet another small step forward.

flavius29663 5y ago
I would say on the contrary. The breakthroughs do have visible results in the regular batteries. The Li-Ion of 2010 are nowhere near as reliable and powerful as the ones today. They're called the same, but they're very different. https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/19/bloombergnef-lithium-ion-battery-cell-densities-have-almost-tripled-since-2010/ https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/19/bloombergnef-lithium-io...

maga 5y ago

They are talking about impregnating graphene with atoms of Aluminium and getting it in production by the end of the year. Yet I was under impression that we do not yet have a viable method for producing graphene on an industrial scale, did I miss something? Do we have such production capabilities or do the batteries in question require so little of it that the existing tech is enough?

virtue3 5y ago
Making particles of it is easy, making sheets is where it is still hard, so that's probably the bit that you're missing. https://www.americanscientist.org/article/mass-producing-graphene https://www.americanscientist.org/article/mass-producing-gra...
- maga 5y ago
  I assumed they would need sheets of it for batteries, but if it works for them with just particles all the better.
ajuc 5y ago
We can produce graphene at scale but it's not big uniform layers but small randomly oriented pieces. Big uniform layers are prohibitively expansive (and you have to provide your substrate to them)
Jiocus 5y ago
The term is impregmating in this context and process :)
- maga 5y ago
  Oh my, I never knew there was a different word for it, thank you!

meepmorp 5y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27153279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27153279 Seems to be the same content at a different site.

Animats 5y ago
Ah. It is the same Australian battery "breakthrough" as last month. Here's the company (Graphene Manufacturing Group) web site.[1] They're publicly traded. Their actual products are some kind of energy saving paint, and a lubricant. 15-20 employees. They claim they have coin cell prototypes now, and will have them for sale for testing purposes by the end of 2021.[2] If they actually deliver on that, they're for real. [1] https://graphenemg.com/ https://graphenemg.com/ [2] https://www.graphene-info.com/gmg-updates-graphene-aluminum-ion-batteries-performance https://www.graphene-info.com/gmg-updates-graphene-aluminum-...

aplummer 5y ago

One of the side-interesting things about this article, is how Australia: - massive net energy exporter - ridiculous gas and coal infra + reserves - ridiculous renewable potential - Comparatively very little national debt and low borowing costs ... has prohibitively expensive energy prices.

johnzim 5y ago
To be fair, the reserves are largely a national security requirement given the risk of potential Chinese aggression (trade or otherwise). Given its remoteness, Australia is quite vulnerable to blockade. While the country is of immense size, global shipping lanes are consolidated and pretty easy to block.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

marcodiego 5y ago

What is missing in all these new "breakthrough battery" articles: what are the drawbacks?

marcodiego 5y ago

> deliver 7000 Watts per kilogram in energy density. Isn't "Watts per kilogram" a unit of power density? Definitely hurts the credibility of the article.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

datameta 5y ago

Edit: False assumption of atomic radius lead me to make an invalid conclusion On paper the top-level explanation of the technology makes sense by virtue of an Aluminum ion being able to transfer 3 electrons vs Lithium's single electron thereby achieving a faster discharge rate seems plausible. However when taking into account molecular weight it becomes a different story, at least as far as energy density is concerned. Lithium's molecular weight is 7 while Aluminum's is 27. So we'd be using 28.5% more mass to achieve the same energy density. And there is also the increased number of Aluminum's orbital shells to take into account so more volume would be require vs Lithium. How much this can be offset by the apparent lack of need for a heating/cooling system for vehicle tier applications remains to be seen. I'm guardedly cautious but hopeful.

virtue3 5y ago
Aluminum has 3x the thermal conductivity of lithium and half the thermal expansion, so this could result in a larger space savings. The weight is an issue but if we end up with less issues around dendrites etc, it might not matter? I imagine that larger cell sizes and lack of need for cooling might offset the perceived weight issues. I'd also be very curious about the longevity of the battery as well vs lithium-ion. I imagine for the automotive space (air running over the battery could be all it needs to cool) this could be huge, but maybe not so much for cellphones/aerospace!
- pengaru 5y ago
  > I imagine that larger cell sizes and lack of need for cooling might offset the perceived weight issues. Have you ever looked at Tesla's vehicle cooling system visualizations? It's not like by eliminating need for cooling in the battery you'd be able to omit the vehicle's cooling system. The coolant circulates through practically every active component of the vehicle, and regardless of battery requirements you'll still need sufficient thermal mass circulating to not overheat any of the other high-power components capable of producing a lot of heat like the motor and controller. Though maybe there could be some reduction in coolant volume by treating the less thermally sensitive battery as more of a heat sink, by continuing to circulate coolant through it. Still, I don't imagine it'd be a huge weight savings, but may help stabilize temperatures.

topspin 5y ago

Perhaps someone can help me with a question. I read this and look for a elementary explanation of the operation of an aluminum-ion battery. Wikipedia yields this[1]: "Aluminium-ion batteries are a class of rechargeable battery in which aluminium ions provide energy by flowing from the positive electrode of the battery, the anode, to the negative electrode, the cathode. When recharging, aluminium ions return to the negative electrode, and can exchange three electrons per ion." This description appears self contradictory. On one hand the battery "provides energy" when ions are "flowing from" the anode to the cathode. When recharging, the opposite of "providing energy," one should then expect to be told that the reverse happens; the ions would return to the anode. Yet the Wikipedia description tells us the opposite when recharging; "aluminium ions return to the negative electrode [cathode]." Nowhere in this cycle, according to this description, are the ions returned to the anode. What am I missing? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-ion_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-ion_battery

Arnavion 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aluminium-ion_battery&action=historysubmit&type=revision&diff=1025327818&oldid=1025298250 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aluminium-ion_bat... They probably forgot to also change the second sentence.
tape_measure 5y ago
The terms anode and cathode are reversed. Mnemonic device: Anode - ants - bad - negative Cathode - cats - good - positive
- topspin 5y ago
  This is the opposite of what I understand: anode positive, cathode negative. Google (and multiple other sources) confirm my understanding: an·ode /ˈanōd/ the positively charged electrode by which the electrons leave a device. cath·ode /ˈkaTHˌōd/ the negatively charged electrode by which electrons enter an electrical device.
  - 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

isoprophlex 5y ago

"Up to 70 times faster charging"... Good luck building a charging network that allows charging a bunch of cars at ~1 MW each...

gpm 5y ago
Tesla's apparently been building that for their semi's? https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-megacharger-charging-port-close-up-look/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-megacharger-charging-po... In general it doesn't seem like an issue. Your local grid may or may not be able to directly load balance that much energy, but even if it can't, you judge add some storage batteries at your charging station to deal with the load balancing.

debacle 5y ago

In a world of renewable energy, the battery technology that wins will not be based on charge time, density, or longevity but on cost and the ability to be efficiently recycled.

alexanderdmitri 5y ago
I think you're right. I could see a future where the charge station ends up just swapping batteries with you (kinda like the way propane tanks work in some places). Give them your used one and they give you a charged one. Adjust for power left on the trade-in and quick quality checks and validations on the units being swapped.