8 ms·

Cocoa Touch apps (2007)

179 points by tomhoward 5y ago

tiahura 5y ago
So macOS is finally getting touchscreen support? Awesome.
- powersurge360 5y ago
  Not sure if this is a joke, the emails refer to iPhone and it’s original sdk. Originally, to develop for iPhone, you had to settle for making web apps.
  - justinator 5y ago
    Well the iPhone shipped with native apps. You, as a developer, just couldn't make them yourself. So my question what is, and wasn't there when it come to the internal SDK and what needed to be built out? I guess exactly what Bertrand lists lol. One of those things would be seen as a miracle to ship in that timeframe.
    - jaywalk 5y ago
      Nothing shipped in that timeframe. It was announced, and that was it.
      - justinator 5y ago
        Good thing I didn't say that anything shipped then, huh? ;)
      - tinus_hn 5y ago
        Announced and demoed. Could be a severely lacking demonstration version but it still had to be presentable.
pier25 5y ago
Jesus they had 3 months to do it.
- refulgentis 5y ago
  I _deeply_ appreciated a recalcitrant Serland's "Let's do it right this time, rather than rush a half-cooked story" was followed immediately by Jobs' "Sure, as long as its ready in 12 weeks" Of course, history shows it wasn't _actually_ rolled out till June (modulo direct 3P relationships Apple did earlier), but good to know managers are always managers and FAANG is always FAANG, 90% of the work gets done _in spite_ of the lack of planning
- seidoger 5y ago
  It ended up being more like 5[0], but still a crazy crunch. [0] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2008/03/06Apple-Announces-iPhone-2-0-Software-Beta/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2008/03/06Apple-Announces-iPh...
- vbsteven 5y ago
  Crazy indeed. Although I assume at that point they already had large parts of the SDK implemented for native internal apps and much of those 3-6 months have been spent on public documentation, signing infrastructure etc.
  - chc 5y ago
    Yeah, people had already been using the private APIs on jailbroken phones. That's still a pretty ambitious timeframe even just to get out all the supporting infrastructure, though.
  - tinus_hn 5y ago
    I presume getting it to work in XCode in a presentable way was also quite an undertaking. Perhaps the simulator already existed, I don’t know. But if it did it probably wasn’t anywhere near release quality.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
swiley 5y ago
Man, it would be nice if we could go back.
aaronbrethorst 5y ago
I just realized that more time has elapsed since the iPhone launched (about 14 years: 2007 - 2021) than had between when Jobs returned to Apple and the iPhone launched (about 11 years: 1996-2007). Yikes. Also, the three month deadline helps explain why the iPhoneOS SDK was such a mess when it first launched.
- lalos 5y ago
  He was leading NextStep right before for ~12 years, iOS SDK is built on top of that effort (NSString - Nextstep string)
  - aaronbrethorst 5y ago
    NeXT, and here's some more fun history on that: https://web.archive.org/web/20150824224400/http://www.cocoabuilder.com/archive/cocoa/136618-what-does-ns-means.html https://web.archive.org/web/20150824224400/http://www.cocoab...
  - bobbylarrybobby 5y ago
    Not just iOS. OS X merged in a ton of NextStep stuff to OS 9, and iOS happens to be based on that
    - aaronbrethorst 5y ago
      Classic Mac OS and and Mac OS X were wholly separate operating systems. Early versions of Mac OS X included the Classic environment, which was an OS X app that ran Mac OS 9 in a sandbox environment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Mac_OS#Classic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Mac_OS#Classic) Mac OS X/macOS also shipped for twenty'ish years with Carbon, which was a framework that offered a cleaned up subset of the old, classic Mac OS Toolbox. It was retired with 10.15. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_(API)#Deprecation_and_discontinuation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_(API)#Deprecation_and_d... Regarding iOS, though, yes you are correct. iOS was derived from Mac OS X, and Jobs spoke a number of times about how the iPhone was "real OS X". https://web.archive.org/web/20070822184142/http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/13800/ https://web.archive.org/web/20070822184142/http://macdailyne...
wayneftw 5y ago
People on HN have repeatedly said to me that Apple actually originally intended for web apps to be the only apps for the iPhone, forever. I never believed it. Glad we have some evidence that that was never the case. Clearly web apps were a stop-gap until they got their SDK done.
- trimbo 5y ago
  How is "never the case" derived from this email? This email was sent after iPhone shipped and doesn't say anything about shipping Cocoa Touch as a goal before this point.
  - shellac 5y ago
    Seems like clear case that is _was_ the case, unless Steve Jobs liked to ensure his intended features were very secret indeed, and delivered late.
  - wayneftw 5y ago
    You think Apple planned to run forever with just web apps at any point during the development of the iPhone? No. Clearly web apps were a stop-gap until they got their SDK done. They always planned on having an app store and pushing web apps to the side once they got their gatekeeping mechanism in place.
    - rgovostes 5y ago
      This claim is directly contradicted by this e-mail exchange from October 2007, the very e-mail exchange in which they decided to move forward with a native app SDK. The iPhone was announced in January 2007, a full 9 months earlier, and was in development for a few years before that. If they "always planned" the App Store, why would Bertrand, one of Steve's direct reports, be writing as if this were a brand new idea? One of the original iPhone's "killer features" was a full, desktop-equivalent web browser in the days of the "mobile web" and WAP. They invested significant engineering effort into making it performant, adding UI affordances for zooming and panning around pages that couldn't fit on a 3.5" screen, and so on. It's completely believable they thought this solution was enough for third-party apps.
mortenjorck 5y ago
"Let's protect the user, by keeping control of [...] which entities can distribute apps (implies: signing infrastructure, policies, etc...)" Imagine an alternate universe where this foundational goal of the iOS SDK was interpreted just a little more loosely, with something closer to MacOS notarization, and an App Store that had to compete just like the Mac App Store.
- jeromegv 5y ago
  Easy to imagine it. It’s the google android play store situation.
  - dkarras 5y ago
    And it just... sucks. So many avenues for exploitations for average developers that I'd never trust and install a 3rd party app on such a device that I carry around with me every day. Sure, Apple model is far far from perfect but the only solution I can think of for such a personal device.
    - sneak 5y ago
      There are far more Android devices being shipped and used in the world than iOS devices. In a purely marketshare-based view, Android is winning.
      - dkarras 5y ago
        ...and I wasn't disputing that. Of course, Android the operating system has more market share.
    - kevincox 5y ago
      > I'd never trust and install a 3rd party app on such a device that I carry around with me every day. I don't run any third party apps either. But I like that I am welcome to do so. In the past I have installed apps from third party developers that I trust and am the better for it.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
Man, that is a classic "Jobs" reply. Detailed, well-reasoned email, acknowledged by a curt one-sentence reply. But that only happened in email. I don't think Jobs liked the written medium. He could talk up a storm. One of the best declarative public speakers I've ever heard (but not an "emotionally eloquent" one, like many preachers).
- doteka 5y ago
  Don’t think that’s as much a “Jobs” reply as just a general senior management necessity. With the amount of “important” emails you get in a position with any kind of responsibility, writing thoughtful elaborate responses to each and every one would leave you with no time to do your actual job. So you communicate the core message clearly and bluntly, and move on to the next fire.
  - DeusExMachina 5y ago
    Also, I don't see what other information was needed here. He was the CEO, he was not supposed to get into implementation details. He gave a green light and left them to do their job.
  - Firebrand 5y ago
    I think a good example of this would be Tim Cook’s email to Phil Schiller on why the Mac’s App Store wasn’t taking off, which was revealed during the Epic Games v Apple trial: https://mobile.twitter.com/benedictevans/status/139681157744 https://mobile.twitter.com/benedictevans/status/139681157744... Cook sees the fire, gives a brief thought, and leaves it to Schiller on Christmas Eve to figure out why it started and how to fix it.
    - gregsadetsky 5y ago
      I think that you meant to post the following URL -- https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1396811577442045953 https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1396811577442045953 Unfortunately, it was truncated in your post Cheers and thanks for the reference!
afro88 5y ago
The most amazing part of this for me is the goals were set before they started, and they delivered on them. The goals didn't change, they didn't pivot, it didn't agile it's way slowly into something else. Clear vision, and what they delivered took over the world.

179 points by tomhoward 5y ago

tiahura 5y ago

So macOS is finally getting touchscreen support? Awesome.

powersurge360 5y ago
Not sure if this is a joke, the emails refer to iPhone and it’s original sdk. Originally, to develop for iPhone, you had to settle for making web apps.
- justinator 5y ago
  Well the iPhone shipped with native apps. You, as a developer, just couldn't make them yourself. So my question what is, and wasn't there when it come to the internal SDK and what needed to be built out? I guess exactly what Bertrand lists lol. One of those things would be seen as a miracle to ship in that timeframe.
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    Nothing shipped in that timeframe. It was announced, and that was it.
    - justinator 5y ago
      Good thing I didn't say that anything shipped then, huh? ;)
    - tinus_hn 5y ago
      Announced and demoed. Could be a severely lacking demonstration version but it still had to be presentable.

pier25 5y ago

Jesus they had 3 months to do it.

refulgentis 5y ago
I _deeply_ appreciated a recalcitrant Serland's "Let's do it right this time, rather than rush a half-cooked story" was followed immediately by Jobs' "Sure, as long as its ready in 12 weeks" Of course, history shows it wasn't _actually_ rolled out till June (modulo direct 3P relationships Apple did earlier), but good to know managers are always managers and FAANG is always FAANG, 90% of the work gets done _in spite_ of the lack of planning
seidoger 5y ago
It ended up being more like 5[0], but still a crazy crunch. [0] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2008/03/06Apple-Announces-iPhone-2-0-Software-Beta/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2008/03/06Apple-Announces-iPh...
vbsteven 5y ago
Crazy indeed. Although I assume at that point they already had large parts of the SDK implemented for native internal apps and much of those 3-6 months have been spent on public documentation, signing infrastructure etc.
- chc 5y ago
  Yeah, people had already been using the private APIs on jailbroken phones. That's still a pretty ambitious timeframe even just to get out all the supporting infrastructure, though.
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  I presume getting it to work in XCode in a presentable way was also quite an undertaking. Perhaps the simulator already existed, I don’t know. But if it did it probably wasn’t anywhere near release quality.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

swiley 5y ago

Man, it would be nice if we could go back.

aaronbrethorst 5y ago

I just realized that more time has elapsed since the iPhone launched (about 14 years: 2007 - 2021) than had between when Jobs returned to Apple and the iPhone launched (about 11 years: 1996-2007). Yikes. Also, the three month deadline helps explain why the iPhoneOS SDK was such a mess when it first launched.

lalos 5y ago
He was leading NextStep right before for ~12 years, iOS SDK is built on top of that effort (NSString - Nextstep string)
- aaronbrethorst 5y ago
  NeXT, and here's some more fun history on that: https://web.archive.org/web/20150824224400/http://www.cocoabuilder.com/archive/cocoa/136618-what-does-ns-means.html https://web.archive.org/web/20150824224400/http://www.cocoab...
- bobbylarrybobby 5y ago
  Not just iOS. OS X merged in a ton of NextStep stuff to OS 9, and iOS happens to be based on that
  - aaronbrethorst 5y ago
    Classic Mac OS and and Mac OS X were wholly separate operating systems. Early versions of Mac OS X included the Classic environment, which was an OS X app that ran Mac OS 9 in a sandbox environment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Mac_OS#Classic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Mac_OS#Classic) Mac OS X/macOS also shipped for twenty'ish years with Carbon, which was a framework that offered a cleaned up subset of the old, classic Mac OS Toolbox. It was retired with 10.15. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_(API)#Deprecation_and_discontinuation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_(API)#Deprecation_and_d... Regarding iOS, though, yes you are correct. iOS was derived from Mac OS X, and Jobs spoke a number of times about how the iPhone was "real OS X". https://web.archive.org/web/20070822184142/http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/13800/ https://web.archive.org/web/20070822184142/http://macdailyne...

wayneftw 5y ago

People on HN have repeatedly said to me that Apple actually originally intended for web apps to be the only apps for the iPhone, forever. I never believed it. Glad we have some evidence that that was never the case. Clearly web apps were a stop-gap until they got their SDK done.

trimbo 5y ago
How is "never the case" derived from this email? This email was sent after iPhone shipped and doesn't say anything about shipping Cocoa Touch as a goal before this point.
- shellac 5y ago
  Seems like clear case that is _was_ the case, unless Steve Jobs liked to ensure his intended features were very secret indeed, and delivered late.
- wayneftw 5y ago
  You think Apple planned to run forever with just web apps at any point during the development of the iPhone? No. Clearly web apps were a stop-gap until they got their SDK done. They always planned on having an app store and pushing web apps to the side once they got their gatekeeping mechanism in place.
  - rgovostes 5y ago
    This claim is directly contradicted by this e-mail exchange from October 2007, the very e-mail exchange in which they decided to move forward with a native app SDK. The iPhone was announced in January 2007, a full 9 months earlier, and was in development for a few years before that. If they "always planned" the App Store, why would Bertrand, one of Steve's direct reports, be writing as if this were a brand new idea? One of the original iPhone's "killer features" was a full, desktop-equivalent web browser in the days of the "mobile web" and WAP. They invested significant engineering effort into making it performant, adding UI affordances for zooming and panning around pages that couldn't fit on a 3.5" screen, and so on. It's completely believable they thought this solution was enough for third-party apps.

mortenjorck 5y ago

"Let's protect the user, by keeping control of [...] which entities can distribute apps (implies: signing infrastructure, policies, etc...)" Imagine an alternate universe where this foundational goal of the iOS SDK was interpreted just a little more loosely, with something closer to MacOS notarization, and an App Store that had to compete just like the Mac App Store.

jeromegv 5y ago
Easy to imagine it. It’s the google android play store situation.
- dkarras 5y ago
  And it just... sucks. So many avenues for exploitations for average developers that I'd never trust and install a 3rd party app on such a device that I carry around with me every day. Sure, Apple model is far far from perfect but the only solution I can think of for such a personal device.
  - sneak 5y ago
    There are far more Android devices being shipped and used in the world than iOS devices. In a purely marketshare-based view, Android is winning.
    - dkarras 5y ago
      ...and I wasn't disputing that. Of course, Android the operating system has more market share.
  - kevincox 5y ago
    > I'd never trust and install a 3rd party app on such a device that I carry around with me every day. I don't run any third party apps either. But I like that I am welcome to do so. In the past I have installed apps from third party developers that I trust and am the better for it.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

Man, that is a classic "Jobs" reply. Detailed, well-reasoned email, acknowledged by a curt one-sentence reply. But that only happened in email. I don't think Jobs liked the written medium. He could talk up a storm. One of the best declarative public speakers I've ever heard (but not an "emotionally eloquent" one, like many preachers).

doteka 5y ago
Don’t think that’s as much a “Jobs” reply as just a general senior management necessity. With the amount of “important” emails you get in a position with any kind of responsibility, writing thoughtful elaborate responses to each and every one would leave you with no time to do your actual job. So you communicate the core message clearly and bluntly, and move on to the next fire.
- DeusExMachina 5y ago
  Also, I don't see what other information was needed here. He was the CEO, he was not supposed to get into implementation details. He gave a green light and left them to do their job.
- Firebrand 5y ago
  I think a good example of this would be Tim Cook’s email to Phil Schiller on why the Mac’s App Store wasn’t taking off, which was revealed during the Epic Games v Apple trial: https://mobile.twitter.com/benedictevans/status/139681157744 https://mobile.twitter.com/benedictevans/status/139681157744... Cook sees the fire, gives a brief thought, and leaves it to Schiller on Christmas Eve to figure out why it started and how to fix it.
  - gregsadetsky 5y ago
    I think that you meant to post the following URL -- https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1396811577442045953 https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1396811577442045953 Unfortunately, it was truncated in your post Cheers and thanks for the reference!

afro88 5y ago

The most amazing part of this for me is the goals were set before they started, and they delivered on them. The goals didn't change, they didn't pivot, it didn't agile it's way slowly into something else. Clear vision, and what they delivered took over the world.