13 ms·

User testing in the wild: he has never used a computer

513 points by tbassetto 15y ago

radarsat1 15y ago
The funny thing is that as an "advanced" user I use the terminal all day long, but we assume the mouse cursor is easier for inexperienced users. But something about that old DOS prompt was not so bad: you just learn the commands, type them, and see the result. In a lot of ways it's a more straight-forward interaction than mousing around.
- pnathan 15y ago
  I once tutored a blind fellow who thought much the same.
- Tiomaidh 15y ago
  As a big CLI fan, I mostly agree, especially with respect to launching programs. But as far as I see there's two big obstacles: 1) Many names are somewhat-obscure in the interest of shortness. But are therefore a bit harder to remember. Compare "ls" with "list-files". 2) Many programs (especially interactive programs)--text editors, office programs, file managers, web browsers--are, I think, more intuitive with a mouse. Want to open that link or edit that textbox? Click it. Want to move that file? Drag it.
ajays 15y ago
Sometimes I think technology just leaves people behind, with no hope of catching up. About 10 years ago, one weekend I drove up to an ATM in Upstate NY, and found an elderly couple standing there, looking confused. After a minute, I stopped the car and got out. Both were well-dressed (probably coming home from church); the gentleman was about 90; his wife was a similar age. "Is everything OK?" I asked. "Could you help us?", she said (he was too proud to ask for help, I guess). "Sure! What can I do for you?" I replied. "You see, the bank sent us this card and said we should be using it, instead of going to the teller inside. But we don't know what to do with it." Wow. I was shocked. The bank (HSBC) had not even told them how to use the card. And I was surprised that there existed people who didn't know how to use an ATM in this country! So I showed them where to insert the card; told him to enter his PIN (while I looked away so I wouldn't see it). I advised them about the security implications; and how to always collect the card after you're done (those ATMs kept the card for the duration, unlike newer ones where you just swipe). I was left with a sad feeling after that, which I can still remember. If I'm ever designing software for general use, I always think about that couple and try to see it from their eyes.
- akgerber 15y ago
  I've always wondered why newer ATMs like to retain the card until after the transaction. I've left my card in an ATM two or three times while in a rush on account of that.
  - pmichaud 15y ago
    Newer/better ones will force you to take your card back before dispensing cash, which I think it's an elegant solution. Keeping your card in the first place is, I suspect, a security thing.
    - Aramgutang 15y ago
      I have taken back my card and walked away forgetting to take my cash on two occasions when using such systems. The stupiditity of users knows no bounds. There's a definite trade-off here: on the one hand, people are less likely to forget to take their cash; on the other hand, people who find a forgotten card in an ATM are unlikely to abuse it, but if they find cash, they'll probably just pocket it.
  - sid0 15y ago
    I believe this is a US-only problem. I haven't seen that sort of ATM in the last ten years where I'm from (India), and I was pretty shocked to see them in the US.
    - BlazingFrog 15y ago
      First, I don't believe it's a problem but merely a different procedure. Second, in France (and most of Western Europe I think), all ATM's keep your card for the simple reason that the magnetic stripe (the part of the card that's in contact with the ATM when you swipe) is never used, to my knowledge. It's the chip that is used to verify the identity, locally record the transaction and more.
      - marshray 15y ago
Mavrik 15y ago
Here I want to ask a question: did any of the HN users ever get helped by anything put into the "Help" menu in an application?
- brianleb 15y ago
  In the last decade, I think I've only used it to find version numbers. Here's an embarrassing(?) example, though: I was typing a response in this post and I wanted to italicize a word. I know different systems have different ways to do that, so I just guessed and tried <i></i> like in HTML, which I learned in fourth or fifth grade. No go, which didn't surprise me because nothing takes HTML input anymore. So I tried [i][/i] as if typing a message on a phpBB forum. No go. So I clicked to edit the post again and just surrounded the word with /slashes/ to indicate it was italicized in my mind. And then I noticed the little tiny help link next to the text box and clicked on it. Help, to use italics? Lame. But it worked (see what I did there?). Here is something interesting: that help link doesn't show up for an initial comment, only if you go in to edit it.
- stdbrouw 15y ago
  Sure, e.g. in Adobe applications it points to the manual, which is always really detailed, logical and comprehensive. But you're right, developers often just put garbage there, items they can't find room for in other menus.
  - BoppreH 15y ago
    See "Check for updates" and "About". Especially "Check for updates", which is the worst thing you can do to a user who is looking for help.
- svnv 15y ago
  Yes, I'm currently doing some consulting on a lotus notes application and the help contents in the Domino Designer IDE has a lot of useful documentation.
  - stan_rogers 15y ago
ck2 15y ago
A person in 2011 who has never used a computer has far more serious issues (or "differences") to the way they approach life than you can solve by redesigning menus and layout. This would be like approaching someone in their teens who still cannot read and trying to design a book you are writing to be more accessible to them instead of your general readership. It's simply a matter of hand-on, over time. I've converted a few AOL users over the years to Firefox, etc. and there is absolutely nothing you can do to improve their experience beyond a very basic level. They just have to use it for a year and go through their own trial-and-error of learning.
- Meai 15y ago
  His point was hardly that we should design interfaces for computer illiterates, but that a person who has never used a computer may provide valuable information on how humans try to approach new interfaces in general. This information can help us put emphasis on the right things: Instead of a bunch of buttons, concise text that leads the user. I imagine something like "Your first time using Internet Explorer? Click -here- to get more information." would have helped him greatly. (not in this particular situation, but if he were at home with his newly bought computer and properly invested in his pursuit of email, then yes.)
  - illdave 15y ago
    Exactly. I've, perhaps foolishly, designed mock-ups and interfaces before where I've used icons instead of text explaining what it is, and I'd often think to myself "It's ok - people will probably click around to learn what that does". That's probably wishful thinking on my part.
- digamber_kamat 15y ago
  Well there are millions such people in India and they are a big market.
  - roel_v 15y ago
    No they're not, because they're the people who don't have a cent to spend, and if they do they'll spend it on food. There are millions who do have some money, but those already know how phones, computers etc. work.
Tichy 15y ago
Now I went looking for the "Nightly Help" item in my browser, but I guess it only applies if you have installed a nightly build.
binarymax 15y ago
She should be commended for her patience and willingness to help this man. Several years ago I spent about 2 hours helping an elderly woman do pretty much the same thing, who did not get nearly this far and she gave up. The concept of a mouse moving the cursor on the screen was beyond her comprehension, yet otherwise she was a perfectly intelligent, well-read woman. It may have been my fault for not explaining it properly, but it is certainly true that modern interface design obviously takes for granted that we already know the basics. Who would have thought that 'help' offers none? And 'suggested sites' gives some bizarre privacy warning? I wonder, however, how Joe would have fared with an iPad? Edit: oops on the gender.
- rakkhi 15y ago
  I was going to say the same thing. Touch seems so much more intuative, I have the Facebook web app looking at a photo album and I absently flick and it doesn't work... Those youtube videos of a 2 year old using an iPad also..
  - a3_nm 15y ago
    I have seen a 3 year-old failing to grasp how to use the arrow keys to control a character in a game, but swipe to review pictures on an iPhone spontaneously. There is one indirection less, which probably makes all the difference. (This does not mean that touch interfaces are better, though -- just that they are more intuitive.)
    - ern 15y ago
      My two year old managed to figure out the iPad, far better than I would have guessed. He can find games and load them himself, and uses the safety of the Home button to get out of confusing situations. He has also attempted to translate the interaction method to the PC, without much success (he recently pushed the round "off" button on a monitor, because it looks like the iPad home button). My grandmother also figured out the iPad's UI quickly, although she has almost zero experience using computers, and struggles to work her phone. I didn't explore how much more she could do with it though. Surprisingly though, my father in law, a doctor with some computer experience, struggled a little with his iPad, and only uses it for online banking. I think it had to do with un-learning his old habits. What I guess from this very small sample is that a touch interface is more intuitive for novices, but could be troublesome for those with some, limited computer experience. I'm sure there's tons of research being done into this stuff...hopefully it will be distilled into an accessible form soon [an updated Design of Everyday things say].
sheffield 15y ago
The world is full of people who have never used a computer. They are called children.
- guelo 15y ago
  Not anymore, they start out young nowadays. My 2 year old niece is a pro with an iPhone.
  - sheffield 15y ago
    Well then, they're called babies.
    - jasonkester 15y ago
      Not even then. My kid was 6 weeks old when I first put the iPad in front of him. Babies get visual feedback right away, especially when it happens right a the point they're touching. It took maybe 30 seconds of training before he was pounding on the screen to make stuff happen. This was even before he figured out real world things like stuffed animals.
  - yhlasx 15y ago
    Actually, outside of us and developed countries, there are millions, if not billions of people who have never used computers. I was one till age 13
  - whatusername 15y ago
    And I was a pro with a mouse (Apple Mac Plus) at 2. Young minds are very good at learning how things work.
- p4bl0 15y ago
  It's not really the same, they don't have anxiety like "what happen if I click here?" and stuff like this. They don't have any supposition of how things are working or not working and what supposed limitation/ability they have. Nowadays children seems to see computers and other hi-tech devices as kinda "normal". A recent example with my little step-brother: he had no problem whatsoever to use the trackpad and click buttons of my laptop to choose another Thomas or Beyblade episode on YouTube. Three years old. And he only saw me do it a few times and then I wanted to read my book without being interrupted every 5 minutes so I told him "use the trackpad, it's this stuff here, use your finger on it and it moves the cursor here [I'm pointing my finger to the cursor on the screen]. When the cursor is on the images of the video you want to see next, you click this button [I'm pointing my finger to the left-click button]". He didn't even asks any other questions. He still interrupted me every 5 minutes but to show me that he just launched the new video by himself... :-). To emphasize my point, it's not him who is particularly able, his older brother, who is five years old now, was exactly the same at his age.
ma2rten 15y ago
I think there are two lessons to take away from this. First, the mall can be a great place to do user testing, if you want to reach a broad audience. Except that I would imagine that you get more male participants, because they are waiting for their female partners more then the other way around. Second, you need to test with your actual target audience. For Mozilla that is at least people who know how to use a computer to some degree.
Joakal 15y ago
Funny thing about Firefox 4 release is that it automatically hides menu bar which I thought was stupid. That's right, even help is hidden unless the user presses alt or right clicks to enable menu (Even as experienced as I was, it took time for me to understand why I couldn't find it). However, if the menu bar was enabled, the user could go Help->Firefox Help and just at the bottom of screen without scrolling is 'Getting started with Firefox'. Unfortunately the first video talks about bookmarking facebook, doing random searches, keeps talking about how awesome Firefox is and all fast paced and not slow at all.
- sp332 15y ago
  Firefox "hides" the menu in the glowing orange box in the upper-left corner.
  - brianleb 15y ago
    Would a new user know that there is supposed to be a menu? Why would they click the glowing orange box? Why even think it's clickable? Why is it glowing? Is that normal? They'll think: it doesn't seem to be related to what I'm looking for, so I'll keep looking elsewhere. One thing that I have always noticed to be true (and frustrating) is that new users try to do as little as possible. They try to stay as safe as possible. They want to do one thing, and once they find a solution - any solution - that works, that's what they keep doing. They don't click on strange icons or try new things just because they can. They don't explore because they don't understand, and in my experience they usually think that something will go wrong and they will break the computer if they click somewhere they aren't supposed to. It's hard for us to imagine someone going in with no prior knowledge of how a program is supposed to behave. We have certain minimum expectations, (e.g. there should be a menu bar somewhere in the top left of the screen) and knowledge (you can't do much of anything without clicking the mouse) that they lack that makes what is painfully obvious to us confusing and unintuitive to them.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
lian 15y ago
I agree with what I think Boriss' point is – that our interfaces are not natural. They require us to build a new system of patterns to match with encountered interfaces of a similar kind, in order to know what we're doing. Same is easily said of learning any new language, visual, written, or spoken. But to suggest that iconography and buttons in general are unique to digital interfaces is inaccurate, and recounting one man's first interaction with a computer as "user testing of browsers" comes across as a sensational misrepresentation of what user testing is, and what education-by-interface should be. Let's not show an entrenched English speaker Japanese and claim that it is the language's responsibility to immediately map to his mental model of English. Learning falls on a motivated student (which Joe, with self-proclaimed "no excuse[s]" for never using a computer, was not) matched with an expert evangelist like Jennifer Boriss, in the event of a total failure of comprehension.
- lian 15y ago
  Oh, but I should add that it is cool to see something headlining as "user testing" making its way up the HN ranks.
melvinram 15y ago
Very interesting experience. The real issue is deciding on what assumptions you want to make about your audience. Even people who are not completely new to computers may act like people who have never used one before so making as few assumptions as possible is probably best unless you have a strong degree of confidence. A few weeks ago, I visited a cousin who had recently bought a new fridge with "high-tech" water dispenser. I'm a big water drinker. When I went to the fridge to get some cold water, I felt really stupid for not knowing how to work a freaken water dispenser. It had a ton of buttons the real button to make it give you water looked like it was part of the door, not a press-able thing. The design could have been done better. How many times have you been at someone's house and needed to use their microwave and it takes more time figuring out how to make the thing go than to actually heat the food? And even if you've used the exact same microwave 4 weeks ago, it still feels brand new and you feel just as lost. Whether it's directions to a location or how to use an app/device, it may not stick. Designing for computer illiterates but decently intelligent people seems like a worthy ideal to strive for. You may never get to a point where someone brand new to computers will feel comfortable with your app but keeping it in mind might help guide us into making small tweaks that can add up a big difference. One example: With WordPress, you can add a search element to your site/blog. The default language of the label is "To search, type and hit enter." This is probably more clear than "Search this site" or plain "Search" but maybe not as clear as "To search, click here, type and hit enter." Yes, it's more verbose. No, I'm not suggesting that WP should change the default text. You have to strike a balance between being clear and not boring your audience by telling them what they already know but when in doubt, err on the side of clarity.
- eru 15y ago
  We have two microwaves at the office. One has two knobs you can turn. One for intensity, one for time. The other has a tons of features, multiple buttons, and only one turnable knob. Pressing the buttons can put the single knob into different modes and thus allows you to adjust time and intensity and lots of other things. Guess which interface is universally preferred? (And I work in the company of lots of smart people here in Cambridge.)
  - 15y ago
Joakal 15y ago
For some statistics: 2,095,006,005 or 30.2 % of the world are Internet users. http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats3.htm http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats3.htm I couldn't find any statistics on computer use, so the number is likely higher.
- vacri 15y ago
  "penetration", as I understand it, merely means the number of people who can access the internet if they so choose. For example, have a phone line through which they have access to dial-up. I don't believe it actually indicates the number of users.
spiralganglion 15y ago
The company I work for produces software for users with zero computer literacy. We're a very small outfit serving a very specific niche. We produce new and highly specialized/distinct programs at a rate of about one or two per week. Our users are often subjected to very tight time requirements, so we can't expect them to develop familiarity over a gradual learning curve. They must immediately know what to do, and our software must support them, computer skills be damned. Almost ironically, I struggle to hold our team to our own UI best practices; to ensure our interfaces and content are approachable. We're always crushed by deadlines — the time it takes to be sure we haven't made any literacy assumptions is time we don't have. It's my job to make developing this sort of UI/UX absolutely painless. Unfortunately, I get almost no opportunities to actually test with our zero-experience users. This article was a wonderful read, and gave me a very specific type of knowing satisfaction. It's a rare opportunity indeed. As for those best practices, here are a few examples: • Emphasize actionable items with animations, and textual and pictorial descriptions of the actions that must be taken. Instead of saying "right click", we might show a picture of the mouse with the right button highlighted, with a "clicking" animation indicating the action to be performed. • Use iconography and terminology derived from the subject matter or real-world objects, instead of common "abstract" UI elements. For instance, a light switch (indicated as actionable, of course) instead of a check box. • Simplify user interactions and interfaces to the absolute minimum. Reduce the actions the user must perform in order to be satisfied. Reduce the number of options presented to the user at any one time. In many ways, designing an interface for a zero-experience user is like choosing a programming language: You want the language that lets you describe exactly the program you need to make in as few instructions as possible. Likewise, you want an interface that lets your users describe exactly the action they need the program to perform in as few interactions as possible.
- charliepark 15y ago
  Some fascinating insights. I know you and your team are busy, but it'd be great to read more of your learnings. Do you have a company blog or anything where you document stuff like this?
  - spiralganglion 15y ago
ThomPete 15y ago
The problem is thinking that the metaphors we use are actually descriptive to outsiders. There is no such thing as an intuitive interface that isn't learned. I had the same encounter with my mom and although she had used a computer before the experience was just as crazy. http://000fff.org/anatomy-of-a-noob-why-your-mom-suck-at-computers/ http://000fff.org/anatomy-of-a-noob-why-your-mom-suck-at-com... Here is an excerpt from the conversation.
- ralfd 15y ago
  Good story. And guiding another person per phone around a computer is incredibly frustrating. But it shows why the Macintosh had in the 80s/90s no hidden context menus and only one mouse button (which is still mocked today). The difference between right and left click (which is really primary and secondary click) was really difficult to grasp.
arvinjoar 15y ago
Reminds of finding a tribe that has never been in contact with other humans. The importance of the internet really becomes clear when reading about people who've never tried it.
rythie 15y ago
No search engine that I could find [Google, Bing, Duck Duck Go, Dopile, Ask - though the logo is close] specifically prompts you on how to use it. For example they could say "What are you looking for?" for new users.
- vacri 15y ago
  And? I don't understand this kind of criticism. I get into my car. The accelerator doesn't have "Press here to move more quickly" written on it. The brake doesn't have "Press here to stop". The horn doesn't have "Press me if the big light outside is green but the aluminium box with wheels in front of you is stationary" If you lower your standards to silly degrees, people will mill around that lower standard. I've seen tertiary students reach for the calculator to find out what 3 x 0.2 is, simply because they can get away with not putting in any effort. Naives that need more help should get specialised help to get them over the hump - normal users shouldn't have to deal with UX chaff just on the off chance some random person might choose one day to pick up a computer and try to learn it without asking anyone for any help. No-one learns to drive all by themselves. Or cook. Or read. Or dress themselves. Would we really want pants to come with a permanently attached set of instructions on how to wear them, just in case someone who always wore skirts might one day try pants on a whim? A UI should be constructed for a userbase, and the "have never used a computer before, ever, but am trying right now and will only do this on my own" demographic for search engines is miniscule. One wonders how such a person can get to the search engine in the first place - it's certainly not like Duck Duck Go is the default homepage for any browser.
  - rythie 15y ago
    30.2% of the world have internet access, so it's fair to assume many have not used a computer and will not know anyone who has when they start, especially in Africa when penetration is only 11.4% (http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm) The car analogy is poor because you are required by law to take lessons in most (all?) countries. It's quite common for people to struggle to afford driving lessons and it slows down the adoption of cars, are you implying that the same should be true for computers? The search engine was the default page in the Firefox screenshot so it's safe to assume some will see it. UI should be constructed for a userbase, however, technically literate, westerners who have spent most of their adult life with easy access to technology, are not the only userbase or even the majority in the world.
httpitis 15y ago
I have several projects atm and feel a bit stressed. In my experience, laughter will help in these situations and reading about Joe's first experience with IE really made my day: Joe: “I don’t know what anything means.” (Joe reads the text on IE and clicks on “Suggested Sites”) Me: “Why did you click on that?” Joe: “I don’t really know what to do, so I thought this would suggest something to me.” (Joe reads a notification that there are no suggestions because the current site is private) Joe: “I guess not.” ---------- To clarify: I was laughing at our industry as a whole that expects users to be computer literate to the point where ppl like Joe have to struggle really hard to get even the most basic thing done.
deadmansshoes 15y ago
In these cases I've often thought it would be useful to have an "interactive" character guiding you around the application, such as a dog, or maybe a paperclip for a word-processing program.
- ralfd 15y ago
  It looks like you're writing a comment on Hacker News. Would you like help? [x] Get upvote for the comment [_] Just type comment without help [_] Don't show me this tip again
  - epochwolf 15y ago
    You forgot clippy.
mnemonicsloth 15y ago
Would you treat a customer this way? During the interview Joe was "stressed," "taxed," "frustrated," and "confused." He was asked to try and fail to do things the author already knew he wouldn't be able to do. Repeatedly. The author was surprised that he would take failures personally, and described ending the interview as "cut[ting] Joe a break." Really very generous, to cut Joe a break from the interview he volunteered for. There is a serious lack of empathy on display in this post. Joe deserves an apology.
- mechanical_fish 15y ago
  There is a serious lack of empathy on display in this post. What are you talking about? Everything you know about Joe, you are learning from this post. If the author has no empathy, how come she can describe Joe's emotional state so accurately that it practically moves you to tears? And I think you need to make allowances for the genre. This essay is a bit impersonal because it's a designer reporting to an audience of designers. The tone is necessarily a bit cold and analytical. I wouldn't assume that the actual interview went down like this, just as doctors don't talk to cancer patients the way they talk to other doctors, engineers don't talk to civilians the way they talk to other engineers, and sausage makers have secret ingredients because... you really don't want to know what they are. Just enjoy the flavor. As for whether it is cruel to cause someone stress by asking them to use a UX that frustrates them: Well, maybe. But if you have ever shipped a product, you have caused such pain. Not one customer at a time, but wholesale: Dozens, hundreds, thousands or even millions of people have cursed your product. Such is the tragedy of the mass market: You can make the delight scale, but the frustration also scales. The authors of, say, Word didn't want to frustrate anyone to the point of tears, but every day thousands of people are so frustrated, because bugs are inevitable, and because no design can do everything, and because people don't always understand the mismatch between your product and their goals, and because computers are less personal than the least personable of persons.
- hvs 15y ago
  He wasn't working with a child, he was interviewing an adult who was free to leave at any time. Learning new things can be difficult. If anything Joe probably came away from this having learned something new (and is now able to receive discounts from one of his favorite restaurants). There's no reason to infantilize Joe.
jamesgeck0 15y ago
My grandfather bought a computer in 2000 to replace his ancient word processor. When I visited him, he said he'd been using it a lot with Microsoft Works. But I couldn't find any documents on the hard drive. It was only when I found a huge drawer full of used floppies and remembered what the "save" button looked like that comprehension dawned...
- Tiomaidh 15y ago
  Many icon sets (on Linux, at least) use a picture of a hard drive instead of a floppy [1]. Which, though more correct, still worries me. Anybody who recognizes the icon as a picture of a hard drive isn't going to be confused by the concept of saving...do we need a similar icon that uses a picture of an entire computer instead? Should it be a laptop or desktop? [1] - http://cshared.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Screenshot-xampp-control-panel.desktop-.local-share-applications-gedit.png http://cshared.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Screenshot-xam...
  - andos 15y ago
    Why do we still need to save explicitly?
    - Tiomaidh 15y ago
      This came up elsewhere in the thread, see my response there: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2738851 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2738851
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      1) because people tend to like clicking save or pressing ctrl-s. 2) to complement save-as (aka, poor-man's branch)
      - andos 15y ago
        to complement save-as (aka, poor-man's branch) Exactly. Today we use save and save-as as crippled forms of versioning. We can do better.
kia 15y ago
This reminds me of my first experience when I started to use Linux (SSH, terminal only) and Vim.
- civilian 15y ago
  The default text editor of one of my first servers was emacs. I had no idea how to exit, no idea how to access help, and no idea what program I was in! I called my nerdier brother and he figured it out and told me how to quit.
hnsmurf 15y ago
This is interesting but entirely useless. Though he's never used a computer, someone already has used this one and changed some things about it. #1 IE defaults to a blank page in what appears to be private browsing mode, rather than Bing as it does on any new windows install. He's somehow running IE on a Mac which may be why. #2. Someone checked out San Francisco Yelp on Chrome and as a result there's a link for it. #3. "We shouldn’t assume that new users will inquisitively try and discover how new software works by clicking buttons and trying things out." That's probably misleading for 99.99999% of your audience. Yeah, the one adult on the planet who never used a computer before might be scared to death to play around with it, but you shouldn't design with that in mind (unless you're somehow aiming a product at them, in which case good luck with that sir). Put a 7 year old on a computer and he'll figure out how to find a restaurant in 10 minutes.
- Splines 15y ago
  * but you shouldn't design with that in mind (unless you're somehow aiming a product at them, in which case good luck with that sir). Put a 7 year old on a computer and he'll figure out how to find a restaurant in 10 minutes.* To a point, maybe. Could that 7 year old figure out how to install lynx and find a restaurant at a blank console by reading man pages? Probably not. Try to remember your first time using a computer. My early years were spent using a C64 to play games off of floppy drives, and I still remember the explicit steps: LOAD "*",8,1. I have no idea what that did, and treated it like a black box. Do not stray off the beaten path, for here be dragons.
- lmkg 15y ago
  Actually, I find that quite a lot of people who are even moderately unfamiliar with computers (by HN standards) tend not to explore or experiment with new tools or UI paradigms. It might be because they're afraid to break things, but I think it's just because their unfamiliarity gives them anxiety and for them it's easier and more comforting to simply turn the damn thing off and forget about it rather than plow forward and get even more lots and confused. Kids tend to be more curious, and more used to being unfamiliar with things. I wouldn't take that as representative of techno-illiterate adults.
aorshan 15y ago
I used to sell computers at Best Buy in an area that was predominantly elderly, and let me say it is quite a difficult procedure to walk someone through using a computer. Every day someone would come in that said they wanted a computer but had never used one before. I would spend hours showing people how to do things, writing up lists on how each task is performed, etc. It can be very challenging. I found the best way to help these people is just to put them in front of a computer and walk them through the basics. Also metaphors are huge. It is always easier to understand something when you can relate to it. For example: My documents is like your filing cabinet. Everything is organized into folders so you can find where it is. The most interesting thing was when the ipad came out. We were seeing people who barely knew what the internet was trying to buy and use one of these things. Try explaining 3G to someone who doesn't have a cell phone. Almost impossible. I remember one man who was so frustrated that he couldn't set up email that he announced that he would give $20 to the person who would do it for him.
- pbhjpbhj 15y ago
  >so frustrated that he couldn't set up email that he announced that he would give $20 to the person who would do it for him // Not that frustrated then. $200 now that's more frustrated!
  - aorshan 15y ago
    Haha that is a good point. I guess it was more the look of total despair on his face.
sjs 15y ago
People generally say "time cures these problems" but I'm starting to wonder. Things change so rapidly, someone who is 60 now and is learning to use a mouse and keyboard might be utterly lost in 20-30 years with whatever advances have been made. When I'm 60 in ~30 years maybe I'll be clinging to ancient things like notebooks and tablets because I know how to use them, and kids will point and laugh while they use the modern stuff.
- rokhayakebe 15y ago
  At 60 you will be able to cope with new technologies almost just as easily as a 15 year old. The reason being you have had some interaction with technology over the years, so you have something to refer to. The 70 year old of today probably did not get to ever play with a computer.
  - doyoulikeworms 15y ago
    Subsequent advances in technologies always require a bridge to the past in order to be successful. Understanding how to use today's technology is very useful for understanding tomorrow's, no matter how different. A button will likely continue to be a button, whether you press return, click, tap, or telepathically hit it.
  - DannoHung 15y ago
    Yeah, but his point is that something totally, completely new, like say, a direct brain interface, is going to be so radically different that he'll have a hard time becoming acquainted with it given his existing experience. In my interactions with older relatives, the thing I find that they have the biggest problem with is that they don't try to explore how the computer behaves because the are afraid of breaking something. So, personally, I think that Apple should advertise it's guest mode for OS X additionally as a "Learn New Things" mode where they very clearly explain that any changes they make are not going to be permanent and that by shutting off the computer, everything can go back to normal (maybe create a simulated web as well). Then there could be a series of tutorial on making significant, (normally) permanent changes to the computer's behavior.
  - 15y ago
xbryanx 15y ago
I applaud the author for doing this sort of user testing. Instead of getting a focus group to come to you, bring your test to them. Besides the mall, you might have fun trying this out at your local museum as well.
pwhermanson 15y ago
It seems to me that the question of the day is..what IS "intuition?" Most UI designers will create an interface that relies on typical design standards that any competent user would understand, such as home icons, menu bars, banners, footers, thumbnails etc. There are good reasons for this; namely because many interfaces target a market of experienced users. Designing an "intuitive" interface true to the word is almost impossible. Experienced users can look at a new UI developed with standard design principles and navigate through it without frustration. But this is not called "intuition;" This is called past experience. Now, rollover pop-up text that describes functionality may add a level of intuitiveness to a system. But why create a help menu for how to use the mouse or how to single click in a text field before you can type in it? Many of those users who aren't experienced are left behind only because it is usually not economical to market to them.
pseale 15y ago
This sounds like how I helped my grandma with her Outlook/phone/digital photo woes. With some things (email) she was extremely successful; with others (digital photos, saving attached photos from emails) she remained lost forever. She could have benefited from a dumbed-down interface for the things she struggled with. Picasa was as close as I could get as simple photo management, but she needed something even more seamless and simple. It makes me wonder why there aren't more companies creating products like the Jitterbug ( http://www.greatcall.com/ http://www.greatcall.com/ )--for those of you unaware, the Jitterbug is a cellphone with very large buttons and a presumably easy-to-navigate menu system, with concierge operator service for remedial support tasks ("I need to check my voicemail"). Maybe we have tried making extremely simplified UIs for common computing tasks, and failed (Clippy/MS Bob)? Is there an extremely simple photo management app (or something on the Mac) that I'm unaware of?
pradocchia 15y ago
Joe knew nothing about computers, so he focused on the only item he recognized: text. Icons, buttons, and interface elements Joe ignored completely Reminds me of my mother. She had a stand-alone word processor back in the day, w/ keyboard, monochrome screen, floppy drive, and daisy wheel. All commands were performed through the keyboard, with prompts on the bottom two lines of the screen, ala emacs. She was real pro w/ this thing. She taught herself how to use it, and never needed any help from me. Fast forward to her first personal computer, w/ mouse and icons, and she didn't get it. 10 years later and she still doesn't get it. In fact, it is a major source of anxiety. She doesn't explore the interface because she might get lost and won't be able find her way back to where she was. What do all those icons do? Who knows. She follows a very narrow course through the 4 or 5 tasks that she's familiar with, and that's it. She's almost superstitious about it. None of this would be terribly remarkable if I didn't know she'd been such an expert user of the old standalone word processor. But she was. And whatever it was about the old machine that worked, it didn't carry over to the new age of mice & GUIs. [for a similar perspective, see the discussion over at metafilter: http://www.metafilter.com/105309/You-have-to-click-on-the-text-box http://www.metafilter.com/105309/You-have-to-click-on-the-te...]
- PidGin128 15y ago
  I personally suspect that some of the confidence garnered on the word processor might have been because it was more of an appliance, and didn't have a persistant state? When powered on, it was set to work on a specific task already, everything to interact with to change functions or settings, would be reset if you pulled the plug, or switched it off.
  - code_duck 15y ago
    Like an old game console. Perhaps she'd like a computer with an OS more close to that, like an iPad?
godarderik 15y ago
Reminds me of http://xkcd.com/627/ http://xkcd.com/627/
losethos 15y ago
I hate what happens to computers after they have been modified by some arrogant condescending liberal who doesn't like traditional usage... that was created in a traditional way for good reason. You just had to change something? Keeping engineers employed crapifies everything. Look -- most people that matter have grown-up with computers. It's okay for a few companties to target rare old people or 3rd world countries, but please don't drag the rest of us along. Computer ignorance is a vanishing issue.
Zarathust 15y ago
I remember the early days of my parents "Click on the ok button" "I don't see it (x5)" "There is a gray rectangle with OK written on it, is that the OK button?" "Double click on the icon... no click twice... yeah, like this but faster... faster... no slower than that..." Really, its like when learning a new programming language, you just need a motivator. My mom learned it to build a genealogy tree and my dad now plays card games online.
- Zarathust 15y ago
  Try to explain to them that the first click didn't count because the form didn't have focus.
athst 15y ago
This reminds me of those Burger King "Whopper Virgins" commercials where they tested BK and McDonald's hamburgers in remote places where no one had ever heard of either restaurant before. It's entertaining and an interesting experiment, but I'm not sure how much it can really teach us about design for 99% of people who will be using the product.
Angostura 15y ago
It strikes me that my parents could make an absolute mint volunteering for user testing.

513 points by tbassetto 15y ago

The funny thing is that as an "advanced" user I use the terminal all day long, but we assume the mouse cursor is easier for inexperienced users. But something about that old DOS prompt was not so bad: you just learn the commands, type them, and see the result. In a lot of ways it's a more straight-forward interaction than mousing around.

pnathan 15y ago
I once tutored a blind fellow who thought much the same.
Tiomaidh 15y ago
As a big CLI fan, I mostly agree, especially with respect to launching programs. But as far as I see there's two big obstacles: 1) Many names are somewhat-obscure in the interest of shortness. But are therefore a bit harder to remember. Compare "ls" with "list-files". 2) Many programs (especially interactive programs)--text editors, office programs, file managers, web browsers--are, I think, more intuitive with a mouse. Want to open that link or edit that textbox? Click it. Want to move that file? Drag it.

ajays 15y ago

Sometimes I think technology just leaves people behind, with no hope of catching up. About 10 years ago, one weekend I drove up to an ATM in Upstate NY, and found an elderly couple standing there, looking confused. After a minute, I stopped the car and got out. Both were well-dressed (probably coming home from church); the gentleman was about 90; his wife was a similar age. "Is everything OK?" I asked. "Could you help us?", she said (he was too proud to ask for help, I guess). "Sure! What can I do for you?" I replied. "You see, the bank sent us this card and said we should be using it, instead of going to the teller inside. But we don't know what to do with it." Wow. I was shocked. The bank (HSBC) had not even told them how to use the card. And I was surprised that there existed people who didn't know how to use an ATM in this country! So I showed them where to insert the card; told him to enter his PIN (while I looked away so I wouldn't see it). I advised them about the security implications; and how to always collect the card after you're done (those ATMs kept the card for the duration, unlike newer ones where you just swipe). I was left with a sad feeling after that, which I can still remember. If I'm ever designing software for general use, I always think about that couple and try to see it from their eyes.

akgerber 15y ago
I've always wondered why newer ATMs like to retain the card until after the transaction. I've left my card in an ATM two or three times while in a rush on account of that.
- pmichaud 15y ago
  Newer/better ones will force you to take your card back before dispensing cash, which I think it's an elegant solution. Keeping your card in the first place is, I suspect, a security thing.
  - Aramgutang 15y ago
    I have taken back my card and walked away forgetting to take my cash on two occasions when using such systems. The stupiditity of users knows no bounds. There's a definite trade-off here: on the one hand, people are less likely to forget to take their cash; on the other hand, people who find a forgotten card in an ATM are unlikely to abuse it, but if they find cash, they'll probably just pocket it.
- sid0 15y ago
  I believe this is a US-only problem. I haven't seen that sort of ATM in the last ten years where I'm from (India), and I was pretty shocked to see them in the US.
  - BlazingFrog 15y ago
    First, I don't believe it's a problem but merely a different procedure. Second, in France (and most of Western Europe I think), all ATM's keep your card for the simple reason that the magnetic stripe (the part of the card that's in contact with the ATM when you swipe) is never used, to my knowledge. It's the chip that is used to verify the identity, locally record the transaction and more.
    - marshray 15y ago

Mavrik 15y ago

Here I want to ask a question: did any of the HN users ever get helped by anything put into the "Help" menu in an application?

brianleb 15y ago
In the last decade, I think I've only used it to find version numbers. Here's an embarrassing(?) example, though: I was typing a response in this post and I wanted to italicize a word. I know different systems have different ways to do that, so I just guessed and tried <i></i> like in HTML, which I learned in fourth or fifth grade. No go, which didn't surprise me because nothing takes HTML input anymore. So I tried [i][/i] as if typing a message on a phpBB forum. No go. So I clicked to edit the post again and just surrounded the word with /slashes/ to indicate it was italicized in my mind. And then I noticed the little tiny help link next to the text box and clicked on it. Help, to use italics? Lame. But it worked (see what I did there?). Here is something interesting: that help link doesn't show up for an initial comment, only if you go in to edit it.
stdbrouw 15y ago
Sure, e.g. in Adobe applications it points to the manual, which is always really detailed, logical and comprehensive. But you're right, developers often just put garbage there, items they can't find room for in other menus.
- BoppreH 15y ago
  See "Check for updates" and "About". Especially "Check for updates", which is the worst thing you can do to a user who is looking for help.
svnv 15y ago
Yes, I'm currently doing some consulting on a lotus notes application and the help contents in the Domino Designer IDE has a lot of useful documentation.
- stan_rogers 15y ago

ck2 15y ago

A person in 2011 who has never used a computer has far more serious issues (or "differences") to the way they approach life than you can solve by redesigning menus and layout. This would be like approaching someone in their teens who still cannot read and trying to design a book you are writing to be more accessible to them instead of your general readership. It's simply a matter of hand-on, over time. I've converted a few AOL users over the years to Firefox, etc. and there is absolutely nothing you can do to improve their experience beyond a very basic level. They just have to use it for a year and go through their own trial-and-error of learning.

Meai 15y ago
His point was hardly that we should design interfaces for computer illiterates, but that a person who has never used a computer may provide valuable information on how humans try to approach new interfaces in general. This information can help us put emphasis on the right things: Instead of a bunch of buttons, concise text that leads the user. I imagine something like "Your first time using Internet Explorer? Click -here- to get more information." would have helped him greatly. (not in this particular situation, but if he were at home with his newly bought computer and properly invested in his pursuit of email, then yes.)
- illdave 15y ago
  Exactly. I've, perhaps foolishly, designed mock-ups and interfaces before where I've used icons instead of text explaining what it is, and I'd often think to myself "It's ok - people will probably click around to learn what that does". That's probably wishful thinking on my part.
digamber_kamat 15y ago
Well there are millions such people in India and they are a big market.
- roel_v 15y ago
  No they're not, because they're the people who don't have a cent to spend, and if they do they'll spend it on food. There are millions who do have some money, but those already know how phones, computers etc. work.

Tichy 15y ago

Now I went looking for the "Nightly Help" item in my browser, but I guess it only applies if you have installed a nightly build.

binarymax 15y ago

She should be commended for her patience and willingness to help this man. Several years ago I spent about 2 hours helping an elderly woman do pretty much the same thing, who did not get nearly this far and she gave up. The concept of a mouse moving the cursor on the screen was beyond her comprehension, yet otherwise she was a perfectly intelligent, well-read woman. It may have been my fault for not explaining it properly, but it is certainly true that modern interface design obviously takes for granted that we already know the basics. Who would have thought that 'help' offers none? And 'suggested sites' gives some bizarre privacy warning? I wonder, however, how Joe would have fared with an iPad? Edit: oops on the gender.

rakkhi 15y ago
I was going to say the same thing. Touch seems so much more intuative, I have the Facebook web app looking at a photo album and I absently flick and it doesn't work... Those youtube videos of a 2 year old using an iPad also..
- a3_nm 15y ago
  I have seen a 3 year-old failing to grasp how to use the arrow keys to control a character in a game, but swipe to review pictures on an iPhone spontaneously. There is one indirection less, which probably makes all the difference. (This does not mean that touch interfaces are better, though -- just that they are more intuitive.)
  - ern 15y ago
    My two year old managed to figure out the iPad, far better than I would have guessed. He can find games and load them himself, and uses the safety of the Home button to get out of confusing situations. He has also attempted to translate the interaction method to the PC, without much success (he recently pushed the round "off" button on a monitor, because it looks like the iPad home button). My grandmother also figured out the iPad's UI quickly, although she has almost zero experience using computers, and struggles to work her phone. I didn't explore how much more she could do with it though. Surprisingly though, my father in law, a doctor with some computer experience, struggled a little with his iPad, and only uses it for online banking. I think it had to do with un-learning his old habits. What I guess from this very small sample is that a touch interface is more intuitive for novices, but could be troublesome for those with some, limited computer experience. I'm sure there's tons of research being done into this stuff...hopefully it will be distilled into an accessible form soon [an updated Design of Everyday things say].

sheffield 15y ago

The world is full of people who have never used a computer. They are called children.

guelo 15y ago
Not anymore, they start out young nowadays. My 2 year old niece is a pro with an iPhone.
- sheffield 15y ago
  Well then, they're called babies.
  - jasonkester 15y ago
    Not even then. My kid was 6 weeks old when I first put the iPad in front of him. Babies get visual feedback right away, especially when it happens right a the point they're touching. It took maybe 30 seconds of training before he was pounding on the screen to make stuff happen. This was even before he figured out real world things like stuffed animals.
- yhlasx 15y ago
  Actually, outside of us and developed countries, there are millions, if not billions of people who have never used computers. I was one till age 13
- whatusername 15y ago
  And I was a pro with a mouse (Apple Mac Plus) at 2. Young minds are very good at learning how things work.
p4bl0 15y ago
It's not really the same, they don't have anxiety like "what happen if I click here?" and stuff like this. They don't have any supposition of how things are working or not working and what supposed limitation/ability they have. Nowadays children seems to see computers and other hi-tech devices as kinda "normal". A recent example with my little step-brother: he had no problem whatsoever to use the trackpad and click buttons of my laptop to choose another Thomas or Beyblade episode on YouTube. Three years old. And he only saw me do it a few times and then I wanted to read my book without being interrupted every 5 minutes so I told him "use the trackpad, it's this stuff here, use your finger on it and it moves the cursor here [I'm pointing my finger to the cursor on the screen]. When the cursor is on the images of the video you want to see next, you click this button [I'm pointing my finger to the left-click button]". He didn't even asks any other questions. He still interrupted me every 5 minutes but to show me that he just launched the new video by himself... :-). To emphasize my point, it's not him who is particularly able, his older brother, who is five years old now, was exactly the same at his age.

ma2rten 15y ago

I think there are two lessons to take away from this. First, the mall can be a great place to do user testing, if you want to reach a broad audience. Except that I would imagine that you get more male participants, because they are waiting for their female partners more then the other way around. Second, you need to test with your actual target audience. For Mozilla that is at least people who know how to use a computer to some degree.

Joakal 15y ago

Funny thing about Firefox 4 release is that it automatically hides menu bar which I thought was stupid. That's right, even help is hidden unless the user presses alt or right clicks to enable menu (Even as experienced as I was, it took time for me to understand why I couldn't find it). However, if the menu bar was enabled, the user could go Help->Firefox Help and just at the bottom of screen without scrolling is 'Getting started with Firefox'. Unfortunately the first video talks about bookmarking facebook, doing random searches, keeps talking about how awesome Firefox is and all fast paced and not slow at all.

sp332 15y ago
Firefox "hides" the menu in the glowing orange box in the upper-left corner.
- brianleb 15y ago
  Would a new user know that there is supposed to be a menu? Why would they click the glowing orange box? Why even think it's clickable? Why is it glowing? Is that normal? They'll think: it doesn't seem to be related to what I'm looking for, so I'll keep looking elsewhere. One thing that I have always noticed to be true (and frustrating) is that new users try to do as little as possible. They try to stay as safe as possible. They want to do one thing, and once they find a solution - any solution - that works, that's what they keep doing. They don't click on strange icons or try new things just because they can. They don't explore because they don't understand, and in my experience they usually think that something will go wrong and they will break the computer if they click somewhere they aren't supposed to. It's hard for us to imagine someone going in with no prior knowledge of how a program is supposed to behave. We have certain minimum expectations, (e.g. there should be a menu bar somewhere in the top left of the screen) and knowledge (you can't do much of anything without clicking the mouse) that they lack that makes what is painfully obvious to us confusing and unintuitive to them.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]

lian 15y ago

I agree with what I think Boriss' point is – that our interfaces are not natural. They require us to build a new system of patterns to match with encountered interfaces of a similar kind, in order to know what we're doing. Same is easily said of learning any new language, visual, written, or spoken. But to suggest that iconography and buttons in general are unique to digital interfaces is inaccurate, and recounting one man's first interaction with a computer as "user testing of browsers" comes across as a sensational misrepresentation of what user testing is, and what education-by-interface should be. Let's not show an entrenched English speaker Japanese and claim that it is the language's responsibility to immediately map to his mental model of English. Learning falls on a motivated student (which Joe, with self-proclaimed "no excuse[s]" for never using a computer, was not) matched with an expert evangelist like Jennifer Boriss, in the event of a total failure of comprehension.

lian 15y ago
Oh, but I should add that it is cool to see something headlining as "user testing" making its way up the HN ranks.

melvinram 15y ago

Very interesting experience. The real issue is deciding on what assumptions you want to make about your audience. Even people who are not completely new to computers may act like people who have never used one before so making as few assumptions as possible is probably best unless you have a strong degree of confidence. A few weeks ago, I visited a cousin who had recently bought a new fridge with "high-tech" water dispenser. I'm a big water drinker. When I went to the fridge to get some cold water, I felt really stupid for not knowing how to work a freaken water dispenser. It had a ton of buttons the real button to make it give you water looked like it was part of the door, not a press-able thing. The design could have been done better. How many times have you been at someone's house and needed to use their microwave and it takes more time figuring out how to make the thing go than to actually heat the food? And even if you've used the exact same microwave 4 weeks ago, it still feels brand new and you feel just as lost. Whether it's directions to a location or how to use an app/device, it may not stick. Designing for computer illiterates but decently intelligent people seems like a worthy ideal to strive for. You may never get to a point where someone brand new to computers will feel comfortable with your app but keeping it in mind might help guide us into making small tweaks that can add up a big difference. One example: With WordPress, you can add a search element to your site/blog. The default language of the label is "To search, type and hit enter." This is probably more clear than "Search this site" or plain "Search" but maybe not as clear as "To search, click here, type and hit enter." Yes, it's more verbose. No, I'm not suggesting that WP should change the default text. You have to strike a balance between being clear and not boring your audience by telling them what they already know but when in doubt, err on the side of clarity.

eru 15y ago
We have two microwaves at the office. One has two knobs you can turn. One for intensity, one for time. The other has a tons of features, multiple buttons, and only one turnable knob. Pressing the buttons can put the single knob into different modes and thus allows you to adjust time and intensity and lots of other things. Guess which interface is universally preferred? (And I work in the company of lots of smart people here in Cambridge.)
- 15y ago

Joakal 15y ago

For some statistics: 2,095,006,005 or 30.2 % of the world are Internet users. http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats3.htm http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats3.htm I couldn't find any statistics on computer use, so the number is likely higher.

vacri 15y ago
"penetration", as I understand it, merely means the number of people who can access the internet if they so choose. For example, have a phone line through which they have access to dial-up. I don't believe it actually indicates the number of users.

spiralganglion 15y ago

The company I work for produces software for users with zero computer literacy. We're a very small outfit serving a very specific niche. We produce new and highly specialized/distinct programs at a rate of about one or two per week. Our users are often subjected to very tight time requirements, so we can't expect them to develop familiarity over a gradual learning curve. They must immediately know what to do, and our software must support them, computer skills be damned. Almost ironically, I struggle to hold our team to our own UI best practices; to ensure our interfaces and content are approachable. We're always crushed by deadlines — the time it takes to be sure we haven't made any literacy assumptions is time we don't have. It's my job to make developing this sort of UI/UX absolutely painless. Unfortunately, I get almost no opportunities to actually test with our zero-experience users. This article was a wonderful read, and gave me a very specific type of knowing satisfaction. It's a rare opportunity indeed. As for those best practices, here are a few examples: • Emphasize actionable items with animations, and textual and pictorial descriptions of the actions that must be taken. Instead of saying "right click", we might show a picture of the mouse with the right button highlighted, with a "clicking" animation indicating the action to be performed. • Use iconography and terminology derived from the subject matter or real-world objects, instead of common "abstract" UI elements. For instance, a light switch (indicated as actionable, of course) instead of a check box. • Simplify user interactions and interfaces to the absolute minimum. Reduce the actions the user must perform in order to be satisfied. Reduce the number of options presented to the user at any one time. In many ways, designing an interface for a zero-experience user is like choosing a programming language: You want the language that lets you describe exactly the program you need to make in as few instructions as possible. Likewise, you want an interface that lets your users describe exactly the action they need the program to perform in as few interactions as possible.

charliepark 15y ago
Some fascinating insights. I know you and your team are busy, but it'd be great to read more of your learnings. Do you have a company blog or anything where you document stuff like this?
- spiralganglion 15y ago

ThomPete 15y ago

The problem is thinking that the metaphors we use are actually descriptive to outsiders. There is no such thing as an intuitive interface that isn't learned. I had the same encounter with my mom and although she had used a computer before the experience was just as crazy. http://000fff.org/anatomy-of-a-noob-why-your-mom-suck-at-computers/ http://000fff.org/anatomy-of-a-noob-why-your-mom-suck-at-com... Here is an excerpt from the conversation.

ralfd 15y ago
Good story. And guiding another person per phone around a computer is incredibly frustrating. But it shows why the Macintosh had in the 80s/90s no hidden context menus and only one mouse button (which is still mocked today). The difference between right and left click (which is really primary and secondary click) was really difficult to grasp.

arvinjoar 15y ago

Reminds of finding a tribe that has never been in contact with other humans. The importance of the internet really becomes clear when reading about people who've never tried it.

rythie 15y ago

No search engine that I could find [Google, Bing, Duck Duck Go, Dopile, Ask - though the logo is close] specifically prompts you on how to use it. For example they could say "What are you looking for?" for new users.

vacri 15y ago
And? I don't understand this kind of criticism. I get into my car. The accelerator doesn't have "Press here to move more quickly" written on it. The brake doesn't have "Press here to stop". The horn doesn't have "Press me if the big light outside is green but the aluminium box with wheels in front of you is stationary" If you lower your standards to silly degrees, people will mill around that lower standard. I've seen tertiary students reach for the calculator to find out what 3 x 0.2 is, simply because they can get away with not putting in any effort. Naives that need more help should get specialised help to get them over the hump - normal users shouldn't have to deal with UX chaff just on the off chance some random person might choose one day to pick up a computer and try to learn it without asking anyone for any help. No-one learns to drive all by themselves. Or cook. Or read. Or dress themselves. Would we really want pants to come with a permanently attached set of instructions on how to wear them, just in case someone who always wore skirts might one day try pants on a whim? A UI should be constructed for a userbase, and the "have never used a computer before, ever, but am trying right now and will only do this on my own" demographic for search engines is miniscule. One wonders how such a person can get to the search engine in the first place - it's certainly not like Duck Duck Go is the default homepage for any browser.
- rythie 15y ago
  30.2% of the world have internet access, so it's fair to assume many have not used a computer and will not know anyone who has when they start, especially in Africa when penetration is only 11.4% (http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm) The car analogy is poor because you are required by law to take lessons in most (all?) countries. It's quite common for people to struggle to afford driving lessons and it slows down the adoption of cars, are you implying that the same should be true for computers? The search engine was the default page in the Firefox screenshot so it's safe to assume some will see it. UI should be constructed for a userbase, however, technically literate, westerners who have spent most of their adult life with easy access to technology, are not the only userbase or even the majority in the world.

httpitis 15y ago

I have several projects atm and feel a bit stressed. In my experience, laughter will help in these situations and reading about Joe's first experience with IE really made my day: Joe: “I don’t know what anything means.” (Joe reads the text on IE and clicks on “Suggested Sites”) Me: “Why did you click on that?” Joe: “I don’t really know what to do, so I thought this would suggest something to me.” (Joe reads a notification that there are no suggestions because the current site is private) Joe: “I guess not.” ---------- To clarify: I was laughing at our industry as a whole that expects users to be computer literate to the point where ppl like Joe have to struggle really hard to get even the most basic thing done.

deadmansshoes 15y ago

In these cases I've often thought it would be useful to have an "interactive" character guiding you around the application, such as a dog, or maybe a paperclip for a word-processing program.

ralfd 15y ago
It looks like you're writing a comment on Hacker News. Would you like help? [x] Get upvote for the comment [_] Just type comment without help [_] Don't show me this tip again
- epochwolf 15y ago
  You forgot clippy.

mnemonicsloth 15y ago

Would you treat a customer this way? During the interview Joe was "stressed," "taxed," "frustrated," and "confused." He was asked to try and fail to do things the author already knew he wouldn't be able to do. Repeatedly. The author was surprised that he would take failures personally, and described ending the interview as "cut[ting] Joe a break." Really very generous, to cut Joe a break from the interview he volunteered for. There is a serious lack of empathy on display in this post. Joe deserves an apology.

mechanical_fish 15y ago
There is a serious lack of empathy on display in this post. What are you talking about? Everything you know about Joe, you are learning from this post. If the author has no empathy, how come she can describe Joe's emotional state so accurately that it practically moves you to tears? And I think you need to make allowances for the genre. This essay is a bit impersonal because it's a designer reporting to an audience of designers. The tone is necessarily a bit cold and analytical. I wouldn't assume that the actual interview went down like this, just as doctors don't talk to cancer patients the way they talk to other doctors, engineers don't talk to civilians the way they talk to other engineers, and sausage makers have secret ingredients because... you really don't want to know what they are. Just enjoy the flavor. As for whether it is cruel to cause someone stress by asking them to use a UX that frustrates them: Well, maybe. But if you have ever shipped a product, you have caused such pain. Not one customer at a time, but wholesale: Dozens, hundreds, thousands or even millions of people have cursed your product. Such is the tragedy of the mass market: You can make the delight scale, but the frustration also scales. The authors of, say, Word didn't want to frustrate anyone to the point of tears, but every day thousands of people are so frustrated, because bugs are inevitable, and because no design can do everything, and because people don't always understand the mismatch between your product and their goals, and because computers are less personal than the least personable of persons.
hvs 15y ago
He wasn't working with a child, he was interviewing an adult who was free to leave at any time. Learning new things can be difficult. If anything Joe probably came away from this having learned something new (and is now able to receive discounts from one of his favorite restaurants). There's no reason to infantilize Joe.

jamesgeck0 15y ago

My grandfather bought a computer in 2000 to replace his ancient word processor. When I visited him, he said he'd been using it a lot with Microsoft Works. But I couldn't find any documents on the hard drive. It was only when I found a huge drawer full of used floppies and remembered what the "save" button looked like that comprehension dawned...

Tiomaidh 15y ago
Many icon sets (on Linux, at least) use a picture of a hard drive instead of a floppy [1]. Which, though more correct, still worries me. Anybody who recognizes the icon as a picture of a hard drive isn't going to be confused by the concept of saving...do we need a similar icon that uses a picture of an entire computer instead? Should it be a laptop or desktop? [1] - http://cshared.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Screenshot-xampp-control-panel.desktop-.local-share-applications-gedit.png http://cshared.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Screenshot-xam...
- andos 15y ago
  Why do we still need to save explicitly?
  - Tiomaidh 15y ago
    This came up elsewhere in the thread, see my response there: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2738851 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2738851
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    1) because people tend to like clicking save or pressing ctrl-s. 2) to complement save-as (aka, poor-man's branch)
    - andos 15y ago
      to complement save-as (aka, poor-man's branch) Exactly. Today we use save and save-as as crippled forms of versioning. We can do better.

kia 15y ago

This reminds me of my first experience when I started to use Linux (SSH, terminal only) and Vim.

civilian 15y ago
The default text editor of one of my first servers was emacs. I had no idea how to exit, no idea how to access help, and no idea what program I was in! I called my nerdier brother and he figured it out and told me how to quit.

hnsmurf 15y ago

This is interesting but entirely useless. Though he's never used a computer, someone already has used this one and changed some things about it. #1 IE defaults to a blank page in what appears to be private browsing mode, rather than Bing as it does on any new windows install. He's somehow running IE on a Mac which may be why. #2. Someone checked out San Francisco Yelp on Chrome and as a result there's a link for it. #3. "We shouldn’t assume that new users will inquisitively try and discover how new software works by clicking buttons and trying things out." That's probably misleading for 99.99999% of your audience. Yeah, the one adult on the planet who never used a computer before might be scared to death to play around with it, but you shouldn't design with that in mind (unless you're somehow aiming a product at them, in which case good luck with that sir). Put a 7 year old on a computer and he'll figure out how to find a restaurant in 10 minutes.

Splines 15y ago
* but you shouldn't design with that in mind (unless you're somehow aiming a product at them, in which case good luck with that sir). Put a 7 year old on a computer and he'll figure out how to find a restaurant in 10 minutes.* To a point, maybe. Could that 7 year old figure out how to install lynx and find a restaurant at a blank console by reading man pages? Probably not. Try to remember your first time using a computer. My early years were spent using a C64 to play games off of floppy drives, and I still remember the explicit steps: LOAD "*",8,1. I have no idea what that did, and treated it like a black box. Do not stray off the beaten path, for here be dragons.
lmkg 15y ago
Actually, I find that quite a lot of people who are even moderately unfamiliar with computers (by HN standards) tend not to explore or experiment with new tools or UI paradigms. It might be because they're afraid to break things, but I think it's just because their unfamiliarity gives them anxiety and for them it's easier and more comforting to simply turn the damn thing off and forget about it rather than plow forward and get even more lots and confused. Kids tend to be more curious, and more used to being unfamiliar with things. I wouldn't take that as representative of techno-illiterate adults.

aorshan 15y ago

I used to sell computers at Best Buy in an area that was predominantly elderly, and let me say it is quite a difficult procedure to walk someone through using a computer. Every day someone would come in that said they wanted a computer but had never used one before. I would spend hours showing people how to do things, writing up lists on how each task is performed, etc. It can be very challenging. I found the best way to help these people is just to put them in front of a computer and walk them through the basics. Also metaphors are huge. It is always easier to understand something when you can relate to it. For example: My documents is like your filing cabinet. Everything is organized into folders so you can find where it is. The most interesting thing was when the ipad came out. We were seeing people who barely knew what the internet was trying to buy and use one of these things. Try explaining 3G to someone who doesn't have a cell phone. Almost impossible. I remember one man who was so frustrated that he couldn't set up email that he announced that he would give $20 to the person who would do it for him.

pbhjpbhj 15y ago
>so frustrated that he couldn't set up email that he announced that he would give $20 to the person who would do it for him // Not that frustrated then. $200 now that's more frustrated!
- aorshan 15y ago
  Haha that is a good point. I guess it was more the look of total despair on his face.

sjs 15y ago

People generally say "time cures these problems" but I'm starting to wonder. Things change so rapidly, someone who is 60 now and is learning to use a mouse and keyboard might be utterly lost in 20-30 years with whatever advances have been made. When I'm 60 in ~30 years maybe I'll be clinging to ancient things like notebooks and tablets because I know how to use them, and kids will point and laugh while they use the modern stuff.

rokhayakebe 15y ago
At 60 you will be able to cope with new technologies almost just as easily as a 15 year old. The reason being you have had some interaction with technology over the years, so you have something to refer to. The 70 year old of today probably did not get to ever play with a computer.
- doyoulikeworms 15y ago
  Subsequent advances in technologies always require a bridge to the past in order to be successful. Understanding how to use today's technology is very useful for understanding tomorrow's, no matter how different. A button will likely continue to be a button, whether you press return, click, tap, or telepathically hit it.
- DannoHung 15y ago
  Yeah, but his point is that something totally, completely new, like say, a direct brain interface, is going to be so radically different that he'll have a hard time becoming acquainted with it given his existing experience. In my interactions with older relatives, the thing I find that they have the biggest problem with is that they don't try to explore how the computer behaves because the are afraid of breaking something. So, personally, I think that Apple should advertise it's guest mode for OS X additionally as a "Learn New Things" mode where they very clearly explain that any changes they make are not going to be permanent and that by shutting off the computer, everything can go back to normal (maybe create a simulated web as well). Then there could be a series of tutorial on making significant, (normally) permanent changes to the computer's behavior.
- 15y ago

xbryanx 15y ago

I applaud the author for doing this sort of user testing. Instead of getting a focus group to come to you, bring your test to them. Besides the mall, you might have fun trying this out at your local museum as well.

pwhermanson 15y ago

It seems to me that the question of the day is..what IS "intuition?" Most UI designers will create an interface that relies on typical design standards that any competent user would understand, such as home icons, menu bars, banners, footers, thumbnails etc. There are good reasons for this; namely because many interfaces target a market of experienced users. Designing an "intuitive" interface true to the word is almost impossible. Experienced users can look at a new UI developed with standard design principles and navigate through it without frustration. But this is not called "intuition;" This is called past experience. Now, rollover pop-up text that describes functionality may add a level of intuitiveness to a system. But why create a help menu for how to use the mouse or how to single click in a text field before you can type in it? Many of those users who aren't experienced are left behind only because it is usually not economical to market to them.

pseale 15y ago

This sounds like how I helped my grandma with her Outlook/phone/digital photo woes. With some things (email) she was extremely successful; with others (digital photos, saving attached photos from emails) she remained lost forever. She could have benefited from a dumbed-down interface for the things she struggled with. Picasa was as close as I could get as simple photo management, but she needed something even more seamless and simple. It makes me wonder why there aren't more companies creating products like the Jitterbug ( http://www.greatcall.com/ http://www.greatcall.com/ )--for those of you unaware, the Jitterbug is a cellphone with very large buttons and a presumably easy-to-navigate menu system, with concierge operator service for remedial support tasks ("I need to check my voicemail"). Maybe we have tried making extremely simplified UIs for common computing tasks, and failed (Clippy/MS Bob)? Is there an extremely simple photo management app (or something on the Mac) that I'm unaware of?

pradocchia 15y ago

Joe knew nothing about computers, so he focused on the only item he recognized: text. Icons, buttons, and interface elements Joe ignored completely Reminds me of my mother. She had a stand-alone word processor back in the day, w/ keyboard, monochrome screen, floppy drive, and daisy wheel. All commands were performed through the keyboard, with prompts on the bottom two lines of the screen, ala emacs. She was real pro w/ this thing. She taught herself how to use it, and never needed any help from me. Fast forward to her first personal computer, w/ mouse and icons, and she didn't get it. 10 years later and she still doesn't get it. In fact, it is a major source of anxiety. She doesn't explore the interface because she might get lost and won't be able find her way back to where she was. What do all those icons do? Who knows. She follows a very narrow course through the 4 or 5 tasks that she's familiar with, and that's it. She's almost superstitious about it. None of this would be terribly remarkable if I didn't know she'd been such an expert user of the old standalone word processor. But she was. And whatever it was about the old machine that worked, it didn't carry over to the new age of mice & GUIs. [for a similar perspective, see the discussion over at metafilter: http://www.metafilter.com/105309/You-have-to-click-on-the-text-box http://www.metafilter.com/105309/You-have-to-click-on-the-te...]

PidGin128 15y ago
I personally suspect that some of the confidence garnered on the word processor might have been because it was more of an appliance, and didn't have a persistant state? When powered on, it was set to work on a specific task already, everything to interact with to change functions or settings, would be reset if you pulled the plug, or switched it off.
- code_duck 15y ago
  Like an old game console. Perhaps she'd like a computer with an OS more close to that, like an iPad?

godarderik 15y ago

Reminds me of http://xkcd.com/627/ http://xkcd.com/627/

losethos 15y ago

I hate what happens to computers after they have been modified by some arrogant condescending liberal who doesn't like traditional usage... that was created in a traditional way for good reason. You just had to change something? Keeping engineers employed crapifies everything. Look -- most people that matter have grown-up with computers. It's okay for a few companties to target rare old people or 3rd world countries, but please don't drag the rest of us along. Computer ignorance is a vanishing issue.

Zarathust 15y ago

I remember the early days of my parents "Click on the ok button" "I don't see it (x5)" "There is a gray rectangle with OK written on it, is that the OK button?" "Double click on the icon... no click twice... yeah, like this but faster... faster... no slower than that..." Really, its like when learning a new programming language, you just need a motivator. My mom learned it to build a genealogy tree and my dad now plays card games online.

Zarathust 15y ago
Try to explain to them that the first click didn't count because the form didn't have focus.

athst 15y ago

This reminds me of those Burger King "Whopper Virgins" commercials where they tested BK and McDonald's hamburgers in remote places where no one had ever heard of either restaurant before. It's entertaining and an interesting experiment, but I'm not sure how much it can really teach us about design for 99% of people who will be using the product.

Angostura 15y ago

It strikes me that my parents could make an absolute mint volunteering for user testing.