7 ms·

I've worked from home for 3 years, than office for 2 and now back to home because of COVID and I moved to another continent. I have some points on the not good

I've worked from home for 3 years, than office for 2 and now back to home because of COVID and I moved to another continent. I have some points on the not good column - If you have kids, it is hard to focus sometimes, specially small ones. - Sometimes your SO forgets you are not "Home" and this also can be bad, as it can create stress between you 2. - I miss software design sessions with my team, we would go thru issues 2x faster being together. - Onboarding new team members is a lot harder and they feel less part of the "team" Last one is building culture remotely is a skill a handful of people have, until now at least. So this also becomes a mess... For me the perfect balance is to be at the office once a week.

selykg 5y ago
> Sometimes your SO forgets you are not "Home" and this also can be bad, as it can create stress between you 2. Simple solution, put a sign on the door that indicates you are working and only to interrupt if it's important. You can still set boundaries here without it being an issue. Be creative, talk it out with your SO. This can help when kids get old enough to understand as well, but admittedly won't work with small children. > miss software design sessions with my team, we would go thru issues 2x faster being together. I think this is something that can be solved with software but it'll take some time to develop workflows that work for everyone. Talk to your team to try to find ways you can optimize. > - Onboarding new team members is a lot harder and they feel less part of the "team" This comes down to the culture, which is your last part. You can help new members feel included in simple ways. Or simply include them in decisions and discussions is helpful. Really it's the same as when you're working in the same location. You just have to be proactive about including someone that you're not seeing. This is more on you and less on the new person.
- antman 5y ago
  > Simple solution, put a sign on the door Who said anything about a door? We dont have two spare rooms really.
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    +1 I suspect anyone that enjoys living in a high cost of living city (SF, NYC, etc) and isn’t obscenely wealthy is working from their living or bedroom. If you’re not living alone, WFH becomes a lot harder. I would prefer to live in SF and go to the office (because my house/apt is too small) than live elsewhere but be able to afford a house with a dedicated room for an office.
    - asadlionpk 5y ago
      How about a middleground solution: Live close to SF (say San Mateo, ~30 mins to SF)? That way you can get dedicated room for office and be in proximity to the city.
      - vineyardmike 5y ago
        Isn't that worst of both worlds? Still EXPENSIVE as hell, and no big open spaces to yourself, but also still not a quick stroll to all the world-class amenities of SF. Maybe it varies for other people, but when i think of "live in to enjoy the city" i think 2 blocks from enough food to never cook again, new bars every friday, a quick transit ride to almost any activity i could want - and no car ownership needed. Its a lifestyle of living out of the city as a communal space, not a destination to visit on weekends.
        asadlionpk 5y ago
        Well it comes down to personal preferences. For me, SF is unhabitable due to crime, shit + syringes, homelessness, and the fact that it's a ghost-town on weekends. Combining that with the fact that we don't do bars, we cook and need car ownership so we can do hike-trips...
    - dragonsngoblins 5y ago
      I work from my living room, my girlfriend works from the bedroom. Sure she sometimes comes out to get water or something and walks past me and into the kitchen and I can see her and hear the sink running but it isn't exactly a huge distraction
amelius 5y ago
> If you have kids, it is hard to focus sometimes, specially small ones. This is what can happen when you WFH with small children: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh4f9AYRCZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh4f9AYRCZY
- genghisjahn 5y ago
  Every freaking day.
- mcbuilder 5y ago
  This is true, the thing is kids grow up and then that stage is gone. With my oldest and second I missed so much, not something I would want to repeat again with my current 18 month old. Kids settle down as they get older, and I'd much rather have a quick play distraction than the annoying conversations that you get sucked into around the water cooler. And I'd also rather get locked into WFH roles now and put up with the young kid noises now with the long-term payoff of less distractions. How many of us are newscasters anyway? I've given up even instructing my wife to take the kids out unless it's a really important presentation, because so many of my co-workers are in the same boat.
- jjav 5y ago
  > This is what can happen when you WFH with small children: Very early in the pandemic our CEO was doing all hands sessions with the company and these things happened on and off. I still don't know if it just happened naturally or if it was staged, but either way it was brilliant. It set the tone for the company that if even big shot billionaire CEO was having kids wander into meetings, it was certainly ok for everyone else.
lliamander 5y ago
> For me the perfect balance is to be at the office once a week. Out of necessity I've been WFH for the past 2 years. While overall I have enjoyed working from home, the issues you describe are real. Once it is no longer necessary for me to be WFH full time, I think one day a week in the office would be ideal.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Alternatively, what about work from "home" where you work at a nearby cafe or co-working space or even the library or a university?
  - greggman3 5y ago
    My company would very much not want others to see my unannounced work.
    - lbhdc 5y ago
      You need to get one of those screen protectors that prevents people from seeing your screen form different angles, and make sure you get that corner seat.
      - Apocryphon 5y ago
        Yeah, companies with strict security measures dutifully provide them for free.
- ljm 5y ago
  I'd go further and say, make both optional. Come to the office space when you need it, stay at home when you don't. Once a week? Twice a week? Every day? Once a month or never? Doesn't matter. Maybe some things would need to change in terms of what office space is leased, and the capacity, in order to manage the cost.
  - lliamander 5y ago
saurik 5y ago
As a kid who grew up with a father who worked from home, I will say I loved it, though. I knew I shouldn't bother him much while he's working... but I could if I really needed to, and he was around if something important happened. His flexible working conditions also meant he could be a part of everything and take you places and then you'd want to do something he'd find boring and he'd just say "I'll sit on this bench, come get me when you're done" and he'd put in a half hour of work in the middle of nowhere as he could (his job also was for a company half a world away, and so he didn't really need to be in contact with them constantly--pre-Internet--or work very specific hours). So like... it might be a bit harder on you--particularly when the kid is young enough to not understand "work"--but I feel incredibly lucky that my father did that (and like, he actually was gone three months of the year to work for that company "in the office"... but I still feel like I got much more of a father than anyone else I knew).
- cfontes 5y ago
  Yes, familywise it's great, I just came back from a 1h lunch break on the beach digging sand castles for a good 30 minutes of it with them all, something impossible with any other setup.
  - greggman3 5y ago
    Not impossible at all. I know two companies near the beach where people surf during lunch.
    - saurik 5y ago
      With their kids?
      - cfontes 5y ago
        Shit are you the "saurik"? Oh man, thanks for all the work you put into Cydia and all that. Seriously you are awesome. This is why HN is special!
      - 5y ago
myohmy 5y ago
I've onboarded a few people over the pandemic and that's really the only downside. I can't really gauge their mood while pair coding over zoom. So its harder to pick up on where they are struggling to keep up. All that has meant is that ramp up time is a little slower. And I can come into the office for 2 weeks for the two times a year we onboard people. Hell, if we did an office rental then neither of us would have to commute into town. It may be shocking to hear, but new people typically live in the outskirts where housing is cheap. Right next to where I live...
irrational 5y ago
> Onboarding new team members is a lot harder and they feel less part of the "team" On the other hand, we onboarded someone who lives in Vermont (the rest of the team is in the same town on the west coast) and since we are all working remotely, other than changing his working hours to align with our own, you can’t tell the difference between him and us.
ilaksh 5y ago
Those are all good points. Which is why I think we need to distinguish between different actual situations when we talk about this stuff. The fact that you are not going to the office is too broad of a category. I mean just look at the name, work from home, and it is misleading right there. You may need to look into a co-working space or other option to get out of the house with so many distractions. It's also going to be totally different for people who have no kids or who are employing nannies or day care to occupy the children. The software design sessions thing, I absolutely do not buy the idea that this cannot be done remotely. Use a Zoom meeting, one of the many collaborative whiteboarding sites/programs and get people Wacom tablets if desired. But just a chat room, phone call, Discord voice channel, etc. should actually be adequate most of the time. For onboarding and culture, just because people are not coming into the office does not mean that it has to turn into a free for all. You can still have rules about being around at a certain time or using certain software or video calls or whatever you feel you need to keep people integrated or whatever. The only thing that needs to be different is the literal physical presence of the person. Virtual presence can still be facilitated and required if you feel it is necessary.
Unbeliever69 5y ago
Great commentary. Regarding 'I miss software design sessions with my team, we would go thru issues 2x faster being together.' My team struggled with this at first, mainly because we had a massive markerboarding wall in the office. We tried setting up whiteboards in our home offices and doing some whiteboard sharing. There was just something about marker on markerboard paint we missed. Then we found Miro which allowed us to virtually markerboard remotely and asynchronously with ease. It doesn't hurt that our video conferencing app Whereby has Miro share feature so we do it directly within Whereby and not have to context-switch so much.
- marcind 5y ago
  <plug / request for feedback from targeted, experienced user> Please check out https://sharetheboard.com https://sharetheboard.com -- we too didn't want to give up markers (on paint or boards or anywhere else). We're working on a number of integrations at the moment. Hadn't considered Whereby yet (Miro is on the short list) but open to suggestions.

selykg 5y ago

> Sometimes your SO forgets you are not "Home" and this also can be bad, as it can create stress between you 2. Simple solution, put a sign on the door that indicates you are working and only to interrupt if it's important. You can still set boundaries here without it being an issue. Be creative, talk it out with your SO. This can help when kids get old enough to understand as well, but admittedly won't work with small children. > miss software design sessions with my team, we would go thru issues 2x faster being together. I think this is something that can be solved with software but it'll take some time to develop workflows that work for everyone. Talk to your team to try to find ways you can optimize. > - Onboarding new team members is a lot harder and they feel less part of the "team" This comes down to the culture, which is your last part. You can help new members feel included in simple ways. Or simply include them in decisions and discussions is helpful. Really it's the same as when you're working in the same location. You just have to be proactive about including someone that you're not seeing. This is more on you and less on the new person.

antman 5y ago
> Simple solution, put a sign on the door Who said anything about a door? We dont have two spare rooms really.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  +1 I suspect anyone that enjoys living in a high cost of living city (SF, NYC, etc) and isn’t obscenely wealthy is working from their living or bedroom. If you’re not living alone, WFH becomes a lot harder. I would prefer to live in SF and go to the office (because my house/apt is too small) than live elsewhere but be able to afford a house with a dedicated room for an office.
  - asadlionpk 5y ago
    How about a middleground solution: Live close to SF (say San Mateo, ~30 mins to SF)? That way you can get dedicated room for office and be in proximity to the city.
    - vineyardmike 5y ago
      Isn't that worst of both worlds? Still EXPENSIVE as hell, and no big open spaces to yourself, but also still not a quick stroll to all the world-class amenities of SF. Maybe it varies for other people, but when i think of "live in to enjoy the city" i think 2 blocks from enough food to never cook again, new bars every friday, a quick transit ride to almost any activity i could want - and no car ownership needed. Its a lifestyle of living out of the city as a communal space, not a destination to visit on weekends.
      - asadlionpk 5y ago
        Well it comes down to personal preferences. For me, SF is unhabitable due to crime, shit + syringes, homelessness, and the fact that it's a ghost-town on weekends. Combining that with the fact that we don't do bars, we cook and need car ownership so we can do hike-trips...
  - dragonsngoblins 5y ago
    I work from my living room, my girlfriend works from the bedroom. Sure she sometimes comes out to get water or something and walks past me and into the kitchen and I can see her and hear the sink running but it isn't exactly a huge distraction

amelius 5y ago

> If you have kids, it is hard to focus sometimes, specially small ones. This is what can happen when you WFH with small children: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh4f9AYRCZY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh4f9AYRCZY

genghisjahn 5y ago
Every freaking day.
mcbuilder 5y ago
This is true, the thing is kids grow up and then that stage is gone. With my oldest and second I missed so much, not something I would want to repeat again with my current 18 month old. Kids settle down as they get older, and I'd much rather have a quick play distraction than the annoying conversations that you get sucked into around the water cooler. And I'd also rather get locked into WFH roles now and put up with the young kid noises now with the long-term payoff of less distractions. How many of us are newscasters anyway? I've given up even instructing my wife to take the kids out unless it's a really important presentation, because so many of my co-workers are in the same boat.
jjav 5y ago
> This is what can happen when you WFH with small children: Very early in the pandemic our CEO was doing all hands sessions with the company and these things happened on and off. I still don't know if it just happened naturally or if it was staged, but either way it was brilliant. It set the tone for the company that if even big shot billionaire CEO was having kids wander into meetings, it was certainly ok for everyone else.

lliamander 5y ago

> For me the perfect balance is to be at the office once a week. Out of necessity I've been WFH for the past 2 years. While overall I have enjoyed working from home, the issues you describe are real. Once it is no longer necessary for me to be WFH full time, I think one day a week in the office would be ideal.

Apocryphon 5y ago
Alternatively, what about work from "home" where you work at a nearby cafe or co-working space or even the library or a university?
- greggman3 5y ago
  My company would very much not want others to see my unannounced work.
  - lbhdc 5y ago
    You need to get one of those screen protectors that prevents people from seeing your screen form different angles, and make sure you get that corner seat.
    - Apocryphon 5y ago
      Yeah, companies with strict security measures dutifully provide them for free.
ljm 5y ago
I'd go further and say, make both optional. Come to the office space when you need it, stay at home when you don't. Once a week? Twice a week? Every day? Once a month or never? Doesn't matter. Maybe some things would need to change in terms of what office space is leased, and the capacity, in order to manage the cost.
- lliamander 5y ago

saurik 5y ago

As a kid who grew up with a father who worked from home, I will say I loved it, though. I knew I shouldn't bother him much while he's working... but I could if I really needed to, and he was around if something important happened. His flexible working conditions also meant he could be a part of everything and take you places and then you'd want to do something he'd find boring and he'd just say "I'll sit on this bench, come get me when you're done" and he'd put in a half hour of work in the middle of nowhere as he could (his job also was for a company half a world away, and so he didn't really need to be in contact with them constantly--pre-Internet--or work very specific hours). So like... it might be a bit harder on you--particularly when the kid is young enough to not understand "work"--but I feel incredibly lucky that my father did that (and like, he actually was gone three months of the year to work for that company "in the office"... but I still feel like I got much more of a father than anyone else I knew).

cfontes 5y ago
Yes, familywise it's great, I just came back from a 1h lunch break on the beach digging sand castles for a good 30 minutes of it with them all, something impossible with any other setup.
- greggman3 5y ago
  Not impossible at all. I know two companies near the beach where people surf during lunch.
  - saurik 5y ago
    With their kids?
    - cfontes 5y ago
      Shit are you the "saurik"? Oh man, thanks for all the work you put into Cydia and all that. Seriously you are awesome. This is why HN is special!
    - 5y ago

myohmy 5y ago

I've onboarded a few people over the pandemic and that's really the only downside. I can't really gauge their mood while pair coding over zoom. So its harder to pick up on where they are struggling to keep up. All that has meant is that ramp up time is a little slower. And I can come into the office for 2 weeks for the two times a year we onboard people. Hell, if we did an office rental then neither of us would have to commute into town. It may be shocking to hear, but new people typically live in the outskirts where housing is cheap. Right next to where I live...

irrational 5y ago

> Onboarding new team members is a lot harder and they feel less part of the "team" On the other hand, we onboarded someone who lives in Vermont (the rest of the team is in the same town on the west coast) and since we are all working remotely, other than changing his working hours to align with our own, you can’t tell the difference between him and us.

ilaksh 5y ago

Those are all good points. Which is why I think we need to distinguish between different actual situations when we talk about this stuff. The fact that you are not going to the office is too broad of a category. I mean just look at the name, work from home, and it is misleading right there. You may need to look into a co-working space or other option to get out of the house with so many distractions. It's also going to be totally different for people who have no kids or who are employing nannies or day care to occupy the children. The software design sessions thing, I absolutely do not buy the idea that this cannot be done remotely. Use a Zoom meeting, one of the many collaborative whiteboarding sites/programs and get people Wacom tablets if desired. But just a chat room, phone call, Discord voice channel, etc. should actually be adequate most of the time. For onboarding and culture, just because people are not coming into the office does not mean that it has to turn into a free for all. You can still have rules about being around at a certain time or using certain software or video calls or whatever you feel you need to keep people integrated or whatever. The only thing that needs to be different is the literal physical presence of the person. Virtual presence can still be facilitated and required if you feel it is necessary.

Unbeliever69 5y ago

Great commentary. Regarding 'I miss software design sessions with my team, we would go thru issues 2x faster being together.' My team struggled with this at first, mainly because we had a massive markerboarding wall in the office. We tried setting up whiteboards in our home offices and doing some whiteboard sharing. There was just something about marker on markerboard paint we missed. Then we found Miro which allowed us to virtually markerboard remotely and asynchronously with ease. It doesn't hurt that our video conferencing app Whereby has Miro share feature so we do it directly within Whereby and not have to context-switch so much.

marcind 5y ago
<plug / request for feedback from targeted, experienced user> Please check out https://sharetheboard.com https://sharetheboard.com -- we too didn't want to give up markers (on paint or boards or anywhere else). We're working on a number of integrations at the moment. Hadn't considered Whereby yet (Miro is on the short list) but open to suggestions.