11 ms·

Google Groups has banned comp.lang.tcl

196 points by networked 5y ago

ivvve 5y ago
Why?
- networked 5y ago
  The reason stated on the page is, > comp.lang.tcl has been identified as containing spam, malware, or other malicious content. This type of ban isn't new for comp.lang groups. In 2020 comp.lang.forth and comp.lang.lisp were banned with the same message: https://support.google.com/groups/thread/61391913/some-usenet-groups-suspended-in-goggle-groups?hl=en https://support.google.com/groups/thread/61391913/some-usene.... The response from a person with a "Gold Product Expert" badge in the support thread was that "since the Usenet newsgroups doesn't have owners there is not any way to appeal the Ban". Edit: comp.lang.python is banned, too. https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.python https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.python
- mpcjanssen 5y ago
  The computer says no. Probably some automated Google process. Curious what voting to undo it will accomplish.
GrumpyNl 5y ago
Cant open the link, i get the warning the link contains spam or malware. Er is gedetecteerd dat comp.lang.tcl spam, malware of andere schadelijke content bevat.
- jacklewis 5y ago
  I think that's all there is to see, this post is pointing out the fact that it's been marked as such.
stevage 5y ago
So they have. Any idea why?
- zibzab 5y ago
  Because the algorithm said so.
  - mrweasel 5y ago
    Your comment reads as joke, but most likely you're absolutely right, sadly.
  - Banana699 5y ago
    Am I the only one finding the popular usage of the word "Algorithm" annoyingly misleading? It's almost certainly the case that companies like Facebook and Google aren't using a single algorithm, but rather a hodgepodge of techniques and components (some of which are neural networks or similar, which are _trained_ using algorithms, and _use_ matrix multiplication and gradient descent algorithms or variants thereof to calculate predictions, but are not themselves "algorithms"). This hodgepodge is not solving a specific, well-defined problem. It's not guaranteed to terminate (the exact opposite actually). It doesn't produce the "correct answer" for every instance of the "problem" class. In virtually every aspect that matter it's not an algorithm. Arbitary programs are not algorithms.
    - dn3500 5y ago
      It's been bothering me too, but it's been several decades since my Algorithms class in grad school and I thought maybe the definition had changed.
    - cosmojg 5y ago
      While semantic debates are undoubtedly a waste of time when we use an ever evolving descriptive language like English, I couldn't help myself. Most dictionaries appear to support OP's usage, and I would argue that it is very intuitive that an alorithm made up of smaller algorithms is still, itself, an algorithm. Google's algorithm for determining whether to ban USENET groups mathematically approximates the problem and computes a solution to that problem in a finite number of steps, frequently involving repetition. Even if it didn't fit those specific requirements, however, it would still qualify under the broader definition of "algorithm" in common usage. See Merriam-Webster's definition of algorithm: : a procedure for solving a mathematical problem (as of finding the greatest common divisor) in a finite number of steps that frequently involves repetition of an operation broadly : a step-by-step procedure for solving a problem or accomplishing some end "There are several search engines, with Google, Yahoo and Bing being the biggest players. Each search engine has its own proprietary computation (called an "algorithm") that ranks websites for each keyword or combination of keywords." — Julie Brinton "… sometimes you solve a problem by coming up with an algorithm of some kind. But sometimes you solve a problem in a very ad hoc sort of way." — William H. Huggins
__d 5y ago
comp.lang.python and comp.lang.c are banned also. I didn't bother looking further.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
sfgweilr4f 5y ago
Well this appears: "Banned content warning comp.lang.tcl has been identified as containing spam, malware, or other malicious content. For more information about content policies on Google Groups see our Help Center article on abuse and our Terms of Service."
arjenmarkus 5y ago
We have seen a single obnoxious poster who posts long Italian posts ranting about murderers and other criminals. The posts are easily recognised because they are all in capitals with very long titles. As a group we have reported these postings as abuse and then they get hidden from the ordinary overview. For this sanitary action we seem to have been punished.
- sildur 5y ago
  Well, I see it as good news, to have Google's dirty, greedy hands out of another Usenet group.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    Then again, Google Groups holds one of the largest Usenet archives on the 'net. (Because Google bought it.)
    - sildur 5y ago
      Eh, it's as if Exxon were owners of a natural park. I would have preferred that archive in the hands of the Internet Archive.
- sundvor 5y ago
  Makes sense. Why ban the Google user when they can ban the whole news group (from their interface) instead. This awoke some latent memories of Forte Agent, the NTP (?) client? Good times..
  - cmacleod4 5y ago
    This same spam has been going for years, but the poster keeps changing their identity. It's always all-caps, lots of references to mafia, assasins, paedofilia etc.
    - swiley 5y ago
cheph 5y ago
Google considered harmful. Just stay away from it.
jart 5y ago
Google used to be the benefactor of the old internet and open source. Then, as soon as we got hooked on those free services, Gizmo turns into a Gremlin that smashes all our old toys so there can be no turning back.
- masklinn 5y ago
  > Google used to be the benefactor of the old internet and open source. Was it? I can remember when it was a good search engine which let me find these, but I don’t think I ever thought “thank god google took this service over”, even back when they were building free services worth using 15 years ago.
  - rusk 5y ago
    > 15 years ago. Keep going ...
  - amelius 5y ago
    Google's mission statement is to “organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful.” Its vision statement is to “provide an important service to the world-instantly delivering relevant information on virtually any topic.”
    - mannykannot 5y ago
      This mission statement is just an example of what it actually does, which is advertising.
  - james-skemp 5y ago
    Email? Gmail's constantly increasing (at the time) mailbox size was a game changer back when it first came out. I at least still recall who sent me an invite to get access to the service, back when one was required.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      So do I: A still active poster here on HN. (I think he was a Google employee at the time, which was why he had invites to dole out.) Around... 2004? Thereabouts.
timonoko 5y ago
Year after year after year this same italian spammer on all comp-groups. What is the issue here? Subject: RAPISCE, INCULA E AMMAZZA I BAMBINI: ANDREA BAGGIO DI REPUTATIONUP CASTELFRANCO VENETO (TV)! From: Andreas Nigg <andreasnigg.safrasarasin@gmail.com>
- hulitu 5y ago
  Why do you think is it italian ?
  - blueflow 5y ago
    What exactly do you expect as answer to this question? That a native italian speaker comes up with a peer reviewed proof that the text is, in fact, written in their mother tongue?
    - tester34 5y ago
      >What exactly do you expect as answer to this question? Maybe user timonoko knows something more about this story.
    - fenomas 5y ago
      One suspects GP may have been asking "why is it in Italian, do you think?" and not "what makes you think it's in Italian?".
      - blueflow 5y ago
        This makes so much sense. Now i feel bad for him that he got flagged so badly.
      - tester34 5y ago
        I understood it other way - "Why do you think he's Italian"
      - dredmorbius 5y ago
        One suspects, on reading the user's comment history, that this is not the case.
mnd999 5y ago
It’s usenet, just read it somewhere else. Eternal September is free and likely works fine.
- beermonster 5y ago
  It does indeed. You can then use an NNTP client and the experience becomes usable. killfiles can be used to filter out this kind of abuse.
- jmclnx 5y ago
  I also use it and works very well. This has some instructions on banning posts from google groups, a bit dated: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/ http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
the-dude 5y ago
I fondly remember DejaNews. And I remember searching and finding an answer from myself. Then I realised all data we generate will be sucked up and remembered for as long as it is considered valueable.
- cube00 5y ago
  It's nice to know when the algorithm decides it's time to ban a group the archives go with it.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    lol really? They just chucks all the archives of a given group? That doesn't seem very google, even for google.
    - cube00 5y ago
      I doubt they actually delete them on the back end but at least from what I can tell I can't access them anymore now the ban is in place.
- hyperpallium2 5y ago
  And one day, from this we shall be restored, and we shall live again, smeared across a million death cubes.
- weinzierl 5y ago
  Me too and back then I'd never have imagined that it could essentially disappear. It's a bit as imaging stackoverflow to disappear. People will say there are the data dumps, someone will surely set up a mirror, etc. but in the end easily searchable and actively maintained content is something entirely different. At least the 'easily searchable' part of the old Usenet content is something that might come back with https://www.usenetarchives.com/ https://www.usenetarchives.com/
  - mananaysiempre 5y ago
sneak 5y ago
Google and other large, centralized providers will always invariably end up having to censor profusely, if for no other reason than they want to retain their customers (spam is distracting and annoying), but also because any high profile hosting/message relaying/republishing platform that makes URLs available to the whole world is going to have a PR problem when a journo links to something unpopular/objectionable hosted on the domain with the standard "Why is Google supporting/promoting this trash?" YouTube recently banned accounts and censored videos that contradicted the WHO - the same WHO that said you shouldn't wear masks during the pandemic. Centralized systems are censorship accidents waiting to happen. It's super bad already, and we're still in peacetime. Imagine how shitty things are going to be if that changes and the nations that can exercise ultimate control these vast centralized systems feel that free communication via them poses an existential threat due to crisis. Then there's the whole Instagram "no nudity" thing. Even outside of times of crisis, the de facto photo sharing default has excluded an entire category of human art and creativity. No single organization should have this much dictatorial control over our society's ability to express its own culture, nevermind its ability to permanently read (and share, and mine) your private conversations. Build around centralized systems by running things yourself. Run your own mailing lists so your groups can communicate outside of algorithmically reorganized timelines designed to benefit advertisers. Self-host Discourse (forum) or Mattermost (web chat) or Gitea (git web). Make local backups of your servers and vpses data partitions so that you can fire them back up somewhere else when the time comes. Your community will thank you in the long run, and you will be contributing to making all of society more resilient and more expressive/free.
- mnd999 5y ago
  It's already on a decentralised system. This is a Usenet group.
  - sneak 5y ago
    The complaint is about Google Groups, which AFAIK is the only usenet interface anyone uses who isn't trying to be a pirate. The exact same issue applies to Gmail, which fronts another decentralized/federated system.
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
I think this is just a UI mixup. The message I get sounds like there should be a way for advanced users to bypass it, but it's not totally obvious how to do so. I tried to join the group, got a different error, then when returning to that page got a "continue anyway" button that wasn't there before.
cpach 5y ago
Honest question: Why cling on to Usenet in 2021? Why not use an alternative solution such as a mailing list, Discord, Element, Slack, Discourse, Vanilla Forums, Simple Machines Forum, etc? There are many other systems out there, even if you want self-hosted open source software.
- zzo38computer 5y ago
  I still use Usenet. I don't like mailing lists, Discord, Element, Slack, Discourse, etc. NNTP and IRC are much better. I only started using Usenet recently (and only for text, not binaries); all of the spam messages I have seen are from Google Groups. Legitimate messages are sometimes from Google Groups too, but are also posted on other servers. (I wrote my own NNTP client software actually) I also run my own NNTP server, for the discussions for my own projects and that stuff (it isn't connected with any other NNTP servers currently, although it could be done if wanted). Currently it does not include the web interface; those who are interested in it can help with such a thing. Web interface is then an alternative for the people who do not like NNTP; the web interface includes a clear link to the NNTP even if JavaScripts/CSS are disabled, so that if given the link to the web interface, you can still use the NNTP if you do prefer to use the NNTP. (I also use 63-bit article numbers rather than 31-bit article numbers, although it is unlikely that they will ever reach high enough numbers that will exceed 31-bits, it is an available feature if it is needed.)
- notorandit 5y ago
  Because it used to be an open standard (nntp) ...
- syshum 5y ago
  Usenet is distributed, and open protocol that is inherently superior to all of those "alternatives"
  - geofft 5y ago
    If it is distributed and open and superior, why does anyone care that Google doesn't let you access it?
WayToDoor 5y ago
10 months ago, "Historical programming-language groups disappearing from Google" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23977375 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23977375 History repeats itself
- WayToDoor 5y ago
  Oh and, 4 months ago, Comp.lang.c Google Group has been banned https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26126455 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26126455
- __void 5y ago
  Oh God, here we go again! I confirm that by searching on lumendatabase[0] requests to remove defamation posts are found; again these requests are very specific and in Italian, so I suspect it is from the same victim of the stalker/harasser, so I suppose that ONCE AGAIN[1] instead of removing individual defamatory posts, google has 'decided' to nuke the entire group. For the sake of completeness, the last time I couldn't get anything out of, the whole experience with multinationals of a certain calibre nowaday is to talk to cheap and dummy bots or worse: people who are so underpaid or unprepared or uninterested in solving the problem that they don't even try to understand it. [0] https://www.lumendatabase.org/notices/search?sort_by=&term=%22comp.lang.tcl%22 https://www.lumendatabase.org/notices/search?sort_by=&term=%... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23982603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23982603 AN UPDATE: Well, that's a big one. Apparently the stalker annoyed the wrong person. This[2] "Court Order Complaint to Google" was compiled and sent by Mediolanum (yes that mediolanum, Berlusconi's company shell), I have downloaded the attached documents and they actually are court orders and biglawyers' stuff... I don't think it's over. [2] https://www.lumendatabase.org/notices/19295670 https://www.lumendatabase.org/notices/19295670
  - cmacleod4 5y ago
    I downloaded the court order, it's dated Sept. 2013, and the only reference to comp.lang.tcl is one entry in a list of 51 urls - https://fcku.it/comp.lang.tcl/thread/4177846 https://fcku.it/comp.lang.tcl/thread/4177846 - not even accessing it via google groups!
andrewshadura 5y ago
Yes, and also Facebook permabanned www.tcl.tk.
DonHopkins 5y ago
The "comp.windows.news" newsgroup about the NeWS window system was cursed with spam and offtopic posts, because so many people confused it with "news" about Microsoft Windows. Maybe if Usenet group names weren't required to be lower case, it could have been comp.windows.NeWS, and there would have been less confusion and spam. This call for deletion describes its history of confusion and moderation: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.windows.news/c/PV3grfO5Ysg https://groups.google.com/g/comp.windows.news/c/PV3grfO5Ysg RATIONALE: remove comp.windows.news The last approved article was in March 2000. Sun Microsystems announced the end of life for the Network extensible Window System (NeWS) in the early 1990's. During the early 1990's, traffic in the then unmoderated comp.windows.news was fairly light, less than 10 articles per week. In December 1995, the group was moderated in place in order to exclude misplaced articles related to "news" about MS-Windows. After the moderation, fewer than 20 articles were approved to the newsgroup. Because of its name, conversion to an unmoderated status is not practical. An unmoderated newsgrooup would be overrun by MS-Windows traffic (see comp.windows.misc). HISTORY: The unmoderated newsgroup comp.windows.news was created in April 1987, soon after the Great Renaming. comp.windows.misc and comp.windows.x are of similar vintage. The newsgroup comp.windows.ms was created in November 1988 for discussion of early versions of MS-Windows. Because of continued off topic posting to the other newsgroups in the comp.windows.* hierarchy, comp.windows.ms was re-organized into comp.os.ms-windows.* in 1992. Despite creation of an entire hierarchy dedicated to MS-Windows, off-topic posting continued in the comp.windows.* hierarchy. The newsgroup comp.windows.news had the additional burden of a name that suggested it was for "news" about (MS)-Windows, rather than being about the NeWS. In December 1995, comp.windows.news was converted to a moderated group in order to exclude off-topic discussion, as well as "debate" about the group name. Over the next 5 years less than 20 articles were approved. The last approval was in March 2000.
kazinator 5y ago
Google Groups needs to die. Or at least permanently dissociate from Usenet. Every time they pull this temporary ban, the quality of the affected newsgroups improves. The most recent stunt pulled by GG is that some genius decided that punctuation characters should be dropped from newsgroup names when posting. So now when GG users post to comp.lang.c++, the post goes to comp.lang.c. GG does not provide a useablee Usenet archive. GG's net contribution to the Usenet ecosystem is negative.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  They should just release the whole archive of Usenet posts that they acquired way back when into the public domain, and shutter the whole thing. They would do a favour to both themselves and digital preservationists.
cmacleod4 5y ago
Suddenly the ban seems to have been lifted!
Dotnaught 5y ago
The group has been restored: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.tcl https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.tcl
- iggldiggl 5y ago
  Others (not just comp.*, but also e.g. uk.railway) are unfortunately still blocked.

196 points by networked 5y ago

ivvve 5y ago

Why?

networked 5y ago
The reason stated on the page is, > comp.lang.tcl has been identified as containing spam, malware, or other malicious content. This type of ban isn't new for comp.lang groups. In 2020 comp.lang.forth and comp.lang.lisp were banned with the same message: https://support.google.com/groups/thread/61391913/some-usenet-groups-suspended-in-goggle-groups?hl=en https://support.google.com/groups/thread/61391913/some-usene.... The response from a person with a "Gold Product Expert" badge in the support thread was that "since the Usenet newsgroups doesn't have owners there is not any way to appeal the Ban". Edit: comp.lang.python is banned, too. https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.python https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.python
mpcjanssen 5y ago
The computer says no. Probably some automated Google process. Curious what voting to undo it will accomplish.

GrumpyNl 5y ago

Cant open the link, i get the warning the link contains spam or malware. Er is gedetecteerd dat comp.lang.tcl spam, malware of andere schadelijke content bevat.

jacklewis 5y ago
I think that's all there is to see, this post is pointing out the fact that it's been marked as such.

stevage 5y ago

So they have. Any idea why?

zibzab 5y ago
Because the algorithm said so.
- mrweasel 5y ago
  Your comment reads as joke, but most likely you're absolutely right, sadly.
- Banana699 5y ago
  Am I the only one finding the popular usage of the word "Algorithm" annoyingly misleading? It's almost certainly the case that companies like Facebook and Google aren't using a single algorithm, but rather a hodgepodge of techniques and components (some of which are neural networks or similar, which are _trained_ using algorithms, and _use_ matrix multiplication and gradient descent algorithms or variants thereof to calculate predictions, but are not themselves "algorithms"). This hodgepodge is not solving a specific, well-defined problem. It's not guaranteed to terminate (the exact opposite actually). It doesn't produce the "correct answer" for every instance of the "problem" class. In virtually every aspect that matter it's not an algorithm. Arbitary programs are not algorithms.
  - dn3500 5y ago
    It's been bothering me too, but it's been several decades since my Algorithms class in grad school and I thought maybe the definition had changed.
  - cosmojg 5y ago
    While semantic debates are undoubtedly a waste of time when we use an ever evolving descriptive language like English, I couldn't help myself. Most dictionaries appear to support OP's usage, and I would argue that it is very intuitive that an alorithm made up of smaller algorithms is still, itself, an algorithm. Google's algorithm for determining whether to ban USENET groups mathematically approximates the problem and computes a solution to that problem in a finite number of steps, frequently involving repetition. Even if it didn't fit those specific requirements, however, it would still qualify under the broader definition of "algorithm" in common usage. See Merriam-Webster's definition of algorithm: : a procedure for solving a mathematical problem (as of finding the greatest common divisor) in a finite number of steps that frequently involves repetition of an operation broadly : a step-by-step procedure for solving a problem or accomplishing some end "There are several search engines, with Google, Yahoo and Bing being the biggest players. Each search engine has its own proprietary computation (called an "algorithm") that ranks websites for each keyword or combination of keywords." — Julie Brinton "… sometimes you solve a problem by coming up with an algorithm of some kind. But sometimes you solve a problem in a very ad hoc sort of way." — William H. Huggins

__d 5y ago

comp.lang.python and comp.lang.c are banned also. I didn't bother looking further.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

sfgweilr4f 5y ago

Well this appears: "Banned content warning comp.lang.tcl has been identified as containing spam, malware, or other malicious content. For more information about content policies on Google Groups see our Help Center article on abuse and our Terms of Service."

arjenmarkus 5y ago

We have seen a single obnoxious poster who posts long Italian posts ranting about murderers and other criminals. The posts are easily recognised because they are all in capitals with very long titles. As a group we have reported these postings as abuse and then they get hidden from the ordinary overview. For this sanitary action we seem to have been punished.

sildur 5y ago
Well, I see it as good news, to have Google's dirty, greedy hands out of another Usenet group.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  Then again, Google Groups holds one of the largest Usenet archives on the 'net. (Because Google bought it.)
  - sildur 5y ago
    Eh, it's as if Exxon were owners of a natural park. I would have preferred that archive in the hands of the Internet Archive.
sundvor 5y ago
Makes sense. Why ban the Google user when they can ban the whole news group (from their interface) instead. This awoke some latent memories of Forte Agent, the NTP (?) client? Good times..
- cmacleod4 5y ago
  This same spam has been going for years, but the poster keeps changing their identity. It's always all-caps, lots of references to mafia, assasins, paedofilia etc.
  - swiley 5y ago

cheph 5y ago

Google considered harmful. Just stay away from it.

jart 5y ago

Google used to be the benefactor of the old internet and open source. Then, as soon as we got hooked on those free services, Gizmo turns into a Gremlin that smashes all our old toys so there can be no turning back.

masklinn 5y ago
> Google used to be the benefactor of the old internet and open source. Was it? I can remember when it was a good search engine which let me find these, but I don’t think I ever thought “thank god google took this service over”, even back when they were building free services worth using 15 years ago.
- rusk 5y ago
  > 15 years ago. Keep going ...
- amelius 5y ago
  Google's mission statement is to “organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful.” Its vision statement is to “provide an important service to the world-instantly delivering relevant information on virtually any topic.”
  - mannykannot 5y ago
    This mission statement is just an example of what it actually does, which is advertising.
- james-skemp 5y ago
  Email? Gmail's constantly increasing (at the time) mailbox size was a game changer back when it first came out. I at least still recall who sent me an invite to get access to the service, back when one was required.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    So do I: A still active poster here on HN. (I think he was a Google employee at the time, which was why he had invites to dole out.) Around... 2004? Thereabouts.

timonoko 5y ago

Year after year after year this same italian spammer on all comp-groups. What is the issue here? Subject: RAPISCE, INCULA E AMMAZZA I BAMBINI: ANDREA BAGGIO DI REPUTATIONUP CASTELFRANCO VENETO (TV)! From: Andreas Nigg <andreasnigg.safrasarasin@gmail.com>

hulitu 5y ago
Why do you think is it italian ?
- blueflow 5y ago
  What exactly do you expect as answer to this question? That a native italian speaker comes up with a peer reviewed proof that the text is, in fact, written in their mother tongue?
  - tester34 5y ago
    >What exactly do you expect as answer to this question? Maybe user timonoko knows something more about this story.
  - fenomas 5y ago
    One suspects GP may have been asking "why is it in Italian, do you think?" and not "what makes you think it's in Italian?".
    - blueflow 5y ago
      This makes so much sense. Now i feel bad for him that he got flagged so badly.
    - tester34 5y ago
      I understood it other way - "Why do you think he's Italian"
    - dredmorbius 5y ago
      One suspects, on reading the user's comment history, that this is not the case.

mnd999 5y ago

It’s usenet, just read it somewhere else. Eternal September is free and likely works fine.

beermonster 5y ago
It does indeed. You can then use an NNTP client and the experience becomes usable. killfiles can be used to filter out this kind of abuse.
jmclnx 5y ago
I also use it and works very well. This has some instructions on banning posts from google groups, a bit dated: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/ http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/

the-dude 5y ago

I fondly remember DejaNews. And I remember searching and finding an answer from myself. Then I realised all data we generate will be sucked up and remembered for as long as it is considered valueable.

cube00 5y ago
It's nice to know when the algorithm decides it's time to ban a group the archives go with it.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  lol really? They just chucks all the archives of a given group? That doesn't seem very google, even for google.
  - cube00 5y ago
    I doubt they actually delete them on the back end but at least from what I can tell I can't access them anymore now the ban is in place.
hyperpallium2 5y ago
And one day, from this we shall be restored, and we shall live again, smeared across a million death cubes.
weinzierl 5y ago
Me too and back then I'd never have imagined that it could essentially disappear. It's a bit as imaging stackoverflow to disappear. People will say there are the data dumps, someone will surely set up a mirror, etc. but in the end easily searchable and actively maintained content is something entirely different. At least the 'easily searchable' part of the old Usenet content is something that might come back with https://www.usenetarchives.com/ https://www.usenetarchives.com/
- mananaysiempre 5y ago

sneak 5y ago

Google and other large, centralized providers will always invariably end up having to censor profusely, if for no other reason than they want to retain their customers (spam is distracting and annoying), but also because any high profile hosting/message relaying/republishing platform that makes URLs available to the whole world is going to have a PR problem when a journo links to something unpopular/objectionable hosted on the domain with the standard "Why is Google supporting/promoting this trash?" YouTube recently banned accounts and censored videos that contradicted the WHO - the same WHO that said you shouldn't wear masks during the pandemic. Centralized systems are censorship accidents waiting to happen. It's super bad already, and we're still in peacetime. Imagine how shitty things are going to be if that changes and the nations that can exercise ultimate control these vast centralized systems feel that free communication via them poses an existential threat due to crisis. Then there's the whole Instagram "no nudity" thing. Even outside of times of crisis, the de facto photo sharing default has excluded an entire category of human art and creativity. No single organization should have this much dictatorial control over our society's ability to express its own culture, nevermind its ability to permanently read (and share, and mine) your private conversations. Build around centralized systems by running things yourself. Run your own mailing lists so your groups can communicate outside of algorithmically reorganized timelines designed to benefit advertisers. Self-host Discourse (forum) or Mattermost (web chat) or Gitea (git web). Make local backups of your servers and vpses data partitions so that you can fire them back up somewhere else when the time comes. Your community will thank you in the long run, and you will be contributing to making all of society more resilient and more expressive/free.

mnd999 5y ago
It's already on a decentralised system. This is a Usenet group.
- sneak 5y ago
  The complaint is about Google Groups, which AFAIK is the only usenet interface anyone uses who isn't trying to be a pirate. The exact same issue applies to Gmail, which fronts another decentralized/federated system.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

I think this is just a UI mixup. The message I get sounds like there should be a way for advanced users to bypass it, but it's not totally obvious how to do so. I tried to join the group, got a different error, then when returning to that page got a "continue anyway" button that wasn't there before.

cpach 5y ago

Honest question: Why cling on to Usenet in 2021? Why not use an alternative solution such as a mailing list, Discord, Element, Slack, Discourse, Vanilla Forums, Simple Machines Forum, etc? There are many other systems out there, even if you want self-hosted open source software.

zzo38computer 5y ago
I still use Usenet. I don't like mailing lists, Discord, Element, Slack, Discourse, etc. NNTP and IRC are much better. I only started using Usenet recently (and only for text, not binaries); all of the spam messages I have seen are from Google Groups. Legitimate messages are sometimes from Google Groups too, but are also posted on other servers. (I wrote my own NNTP client software actually) I also run my own NNTP server, for the discussions for my own projects and that stuff (it isn't connected with any other NNTP servers currently, although it could be done if wanted). Currently it does not include the web interface; those who are interested in it can help with such a thing. Web interface is then an alternative for the people who do not like NNTP; the web interface includes a clear link to the NNTP even if JavaScripts/CSS are disabled, so that if given the link to the web interface, you can still use the NNTP if you do prefer to use the NNTP. (I also use 63-bit article numbers rather than 31-bit article numbers, although it is unlikely that they will ever reach high enough numbers that will exceed 31-bits, it is an available feature if it is needed.)
notorandit 5y ago
Because it used to be an open standard (nntp) ...
syshum 5y ago
Usenet is distributed, and open protocol that is inherently superior to all of those "alternatives"
- geofft 5y ago
  If it is distributed and open and superior, why does anyone care that Google doesn't let you access it?

WayToDoor 5y ago

10 months ago, "Historical programming-language groups disappearing from Google" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23977375 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23977375 History repeats itself

WayToDoor 5y ago
Oh and, 4 months ago, Comp.lang.c Google Group has been banned https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26126455 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26126455
__void 5y ago
Oh God, here we go again! I confirm that by searching on lumendatabase[0] requests to remove defamation posts are found; again these requests are very specific and in Italian, so I suspect it is from the same victim of the stalker/harasser, so I suppose that ONCE AGAIN[1] instead of removing individual defamatory posts, google has 'decided' to nuke the entire group. For the sake of completeness, the last time I couldn't get anything out of, the whole experience with multinationals of a certain calibre nowaday is to talk to cheap and dummy bots or worse: people who are so underpaid or unprepared or uninterested in solving the problem that they don't even try to understand it. [0] https://www.lumendatabase.org/notices/search?sort_by=&term=%22comp.lang.tcl%22 https://www.lumendatabase.org/notices/search?sort_by=&term=%... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23982603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23982603 AN UPDATE: Well, that's a big one. Apparently the stalker annoyed the wrong person. This[2] "Court Order Complaint to Google" was compiled and sent by Mediolanum (yes that mediolanum, Berlusconi's company shell), I have downloaded the attached documents and they actually are court orders and biglawyers' stuff... I don't think it's over. [2] https://www.lumendatabase.org/notices/19295670 https://www.lumendatabase.org/notices/19295670
- cmacleod4 5y ago
  I downloaded the court order, it's dated Sept. 2013, and the only reference to comp.lang.tcl is one entry in a list of 51 urls - https://fcku.it/comp.lang.tcl/thread/4177846 https://fcku.it/comp.lang.tcl/thread/4177846 - not even accessing it via google groups!

andrewshadura 5y ago

Yes, and also Facebook permabanned www.tcl.tk.

DonHopkins 5y ago

The "comp.windows.news" newsgroup about the NeWS window system was cursed with spam and offtopic posts, because so many people confused it with "news" about Microsoft Windows. Maybe if Usenet group names weren't required to be lower case, it could have been comp.windows.NeWS, and there would have been less confusion and spam. This call for deletion describes its history of confusion and moderation: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.windows.news/c/PV3grfO5Ysg https://groups.google.com/g/comp.windows.news/c/PV3grfO5Ysg RATIONALE: remove comp.windows.news The last approved article was in March 2000. Sun Microsystems announced the end of life for the Network extensible Window System (NeWS) in the early 1990's. During the early 1990's, traffic in the then unmoderated comp.windows.news was fairly light, less than 10 articles per week. In December 1995, the group was moderated in place in order to exclude misplaced articles related to "news" about MS-Windows. After the moderation, fewer than 20 articles were approved to the newsgroup. Because of its name, conversion to an unmoderated status is not practical. An unmoderated newsgrooup would be overrun by MS-Windows traffic (see comp.windows.misc). HISTORY: The unmoderated newsgroup comp.windows.news was created in April 1987, soon after the Great Renaming. comp.windows.misc and comp.windows.x are of similar vintage. The newsgroup comp.windows.ms was created in November 1988 for discussion of early versions of MS-Windows. Because of continued off topic posting to the other newsgroups in the comp.windows.* hierarchy, comp.windows.ms was re-organized into comp.os.ms-windows.* in 1992. Despite creation of an entire hierarchy dedicated to MS-Windows, off-topic posting continued in the comp.windows.* hierarchy. The newsgroup comp.windows.news had the additional burden of a name that suggested it was for "news" about (MS)-Windows, rather than being about the NeWS. In December 1995, comp.windows.news was converted to a moderated group in order to exclude off-topic discussion, as well as "debate" about the group name. Over the next 5 years less than 20 articles were approved. The last approval was in March 2000.

kazinator 5y ago

Google Groups needs to die. Or at least permanently dissociate from Usenet. Every time they pull this temporary ban, the quality of the affected newsgroups improves. The most recent stunt pulled by GG is that some genius decided that punctuation characters should be dropped from newsgroup names when posting. So now when GG users post to comp.lang.c++, the post goes to comp.lang.c. GG does not provide a useablee Usenet archive. GG's net contribution to the Usenet ecosystem is negative.

selfhoster11 5y ago
They should just release the whole archive of Usenet posts that they acquired way back when into the public domain, and shutter the whole thing. They would do a favour to both themselves and digital preservationists.

cmacleod4 5y ago

Suddenly the ban seems to have been lifted!

Dotnaught 5y ago

The group has been restored: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.tcl https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.tcl

iggldiggl 5y ago
Others (not just comp.*, but also e.g. uk.railway) are unfortunately still blocked.