6 ms·

The Brazilianization of the World

123 points by GranularRecipe 5y ago

yosito 5y ago
> a new ethnic stalemate between a racially mixed working class and a white elite *sigh* It's really hard to take seriously anyone with the opinion that there are no working class whites.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  I took it as meaning there are white, black, others, and mixed people who are working class, but elites are always white.
  - senkora 5y ago
    I think both meanings are plausible in this context. "Racially mixed" could reasonably suggest "mixed race", and "mixed race" always means multi-racial in English. Mestizo is a similar term. The author could have chosen a clearer phrasing to avoid this problem.
- 01100011 5y ago
  I don't think that's what those words mean. It's saying the elites are white. That does not exclude whites from the racially mixed elite.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- MauroIksem 5y ago
  That's not what he means. Whites are included in the mixed mixed class.
hyko 5y ago
Cool premise, catchy headline, doesn’t fit the known facts.
- dang 5y ago
  "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - hyko 5y ago
    Sorry dang. I appreciate the work you do keeping HN on point, so you have my personal thanks for that. I suspect the job is getting harder and I don’t want to contribute to the problem. I’ve been flagged twice now in one day. I’m not sure if my comments have become less substantive over time, or if the world has. But after ten years of commenting on here, I think the time has come for me to find a new hobby.
slig 5y ago
In one picture: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/29/sao-paulo-injustice-tuca-vieira-inequality-photograph-paraisopolis https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/29/sao-paulo-inj...
- augusto-moura 5y ago
  I don't think the image has to do with the term Brazilianization, it shows a brazilian problem sure, but the term is deeper than social inequalities, is more about not reaching a never ending promise of future
DoingIsLearning 5y ago
> Just look at Italian elites’ desperation to remain part of euro, despite the penury to which it subjects the country and the destruction of any future for it. It is an absolutely false hyperbole to claim that the Euro is the cause of economic decline and the destruction of Italian future. I was in agreement with the general premise of the article but this wild claim written as a fact makes me question all the other claims that I lack the knowledge to challenge.
- 127 5y ago
  Your quote doesn't seem to say anything such. It's the decision of the elites, not euro itself. Also, I don't see how it's that far off the mark. Germany enjoys the benefits of strong exports, at the cost of the periphery. It's actually a pretty well known and often commented about fact. Italy is one of the biggest losers from joining the euro system.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
    Beside Germany, which other countries have massively benefitted from the Euro?
    - Bancakes 5y ago
      Eastern European developing states.
    - iagovar 5y ago
      The Netherlands and some eastern ones.
  - wink 5y ago
    Honestly curious what part (not regional) of Germany should have directly benefitted in your opinion. I was too young at the time (just finishing school) but in the span of 1-2 years it seemed that all prices were adjusted back to the old value, but we had traded in our money at 2:1. The beers I bought in a pub were 4-5 DM and not soon after it was 3 EUR, that's definitely not due to inflation. The difference was basically so shockingly large that I actively wondered how this would work out in the next years. You mentioned exports, so maybe "the economy as a whole" or everyone already having their company running. Also I've seen housing prices go sideways in the 00s, but not sure if that's completely unrelated.
ravieira 5y ago
For those who enjoyed the article, and are further interested in reading more about this central theme of frustrated economic/historical development specially as it took and takes place in Brazil, I recommend reading the late Professor Darcy Ribeiro. In my view, largely influenced by Ribeiro, Brazil's elites are immensely selfish and petty, as well as always stuck in outdated economics and politics (e.g. rural elites have always been way too influential, ). The State is blatantly *negligent* and does not think about serving its people (e.g. let them build and live in favelas and leave them to their faith, build a new housing project but make it 20 miles from the beach and nevermind planning for transportation or education in the area). There's definitely much that I love about Brazilian culture and the "general disposition" of my fellow nationals, but I agree that as a whole we have developed this sense of morbid ironic detachment from our social environment.
- speeder 5y ago
  It is not just that. For example if you read letters from Dom Pedro I to Dom Pedro II, and also see the opinions they had, both believed Brazillian economy was backwards and stupid, they believed strongly that it would be far more profitable, not just for the country, but even for the large landowners, if they agreed with the end of slavery, because it would create a consumer class (among other things). I also saw similar issues regarding modernization of manufacturing, with the government wanting it but the elite resisting. When the State finally ended slavery for good (after many attempts! For example one thing I was never taught in school, is that Brazil explicitly allowed England to sink Brazillian slaver ships way before slavery officially ended, as an attempt to end slavery while not antagonizing the elite), instead the elite kicked the government out and created its own. Things basically remain this way, whenever the leadership is promising, the elite kick it out somehow.
  - lanna 5y ago
    > Brazil explicitly allowed England to sink Brazillian slaver ships Killing all slaves in the ship?
    - 5y ago
TheGigaChad 5y ago
Communist blabbing, they can go to Venezuela and enjoy their utopia.
brazilnawtion 5y ago
Given the author's posts on twitter and how his arguments are organized in the article, it just show how a political view spreads on all his views of the world and how facts doesn't matter
didibus 5y ago
> In political terms, Brazilianization means patrimonialism, clientelism, and corruption. Rather than see these as aberrations, we should understand them as the normal state of politics when widely shared economic progress is not available, and the socialist Left cannot act as a countervailing force. It was the industrial proletariat and socialist politics that kept liberalism honest, and prevented elites from instrumentalizing the state for their own interests. It's a long article, but I think this quote summarizes it for people who want a TL;DR
fcanesin 5y ago
"The important stuff—the really valuable ideas—were now protected by intellectual property rights" There are several reasons why China/Japan/Korea had very little regard for international IP on its high growth years - Brazil should do the same. Being per capita poor means that majority cannot consume imported goods, sometimes those are important for further development like machines, methods and tools - for small and even medium size entrepreneurs.
f00zz 5y ago
Only skimmed through it, but looks like a fairly typical specimen of the verborrhea produced by the Brazilian intelligentsia (who themselves usually come from the very elite that they claim to hate), except that this time it's written in English Telltale shibboleths: neoliberal capitalism as the big villain (Brazil has one of the lowest trade/GDP ratios in the world, heck I wish neoliberalism was our biggest problem), an unhealthy obsession with "neoliberal" former president Fernando Henrique Cardoso (thanks to him for selling the "state-owned family jewels", growing up in the 90s we didn't have a phone line, only the rich could afford one from the the state-owned phone company), and "institutional coup in 2016" was the icing on the cake
- rafaelero 5y ago
  I agree. This is the typical text that is used in Economics classes in Brazilian universities. 4 years of that I am very tired of this type of content. No attempt to explain why things came about the way authors think they did; too much reliance on the "agency of the elites" (how could they intentionally stop a country from developing? And why would they do that?). Also, I don't think Brazil is a special example at all. It has a GDP per capita very close to what would be predicted by its human capital. The interesting cases are Chile and Argentina (why one was so successful and the other so miserable in the last decades?).
  - lhorie 5y ago
    > how could they intentionally stop a country from developing? Isn't the petrobras scandal a good example of that? Or before that, the ridiculous culmination of the "steals but does" campaign by Maluf? My understanding is that the IOF tax is in place precisely as an attempt from the government to keep tabs on the volume of siphoning of currency by politicians to Miami and tax havens elsewhere. While I'm not particularly convinced of some of accusations thrown around by article, there's at least an attempt to analyze the situation, rather than the usual shrugging off the status quo.
    - rafaelero 5y ago
      Corruption by itself can't hold a country down, otherwise China would not present such enormous growth during last decades. Human capital is the underlying factor that contributes to corruption, slow economic growth, criminality, etc. I wish there was a straightforward way to improve that, but I am a bit cynical.
lhorie 5y ago
In a nutshell, the article argues about similarities between Brazil sociopolitical landscape and that of other western powers (mostly US and EU). The similarities, it argues, are that the capitalist system consists of growth based on exploiting peripheral groups to the benefit of the elites. The repercussions are indeed clear: erosion of employment (e.g. the tipping system in the US, air quote "contractors" barely making minimum wage, multiple jobs to make ends meet, etc), a growing sense of disconnect between the people and government as an entity to drive social improvements, the rise of corporate lobbying, etc. Even if specifics are different, it seems easy to agree with the premise that first world countries are headed to the same fate of "endless frustration" that characterizes Brazilian socioeconomics and politics. I think it's telling that the author felt the need to reach for Brazil as an allegory to avoid the tired capitalism-vs-socialism bickering that plagues discussions about economic policy and social inequality. Nobody wants to hear that their own capitalist pursuit of success is fundamentally perched on exploitation. It's less awkward to point and shake heads at Brazil. In a way, Brazil is a perfect poster child of the sociopolitical ailments of the world: its inadequacies serve quite appropriately as caricatures of the inadequacies of the western world, but its society is so alienated that people can't even be bothered to attempt to mount a patriotic defense of its ways.
visualradio 5y ago
Setting aside economics, James Madison developed an interesting categorization of systems of governance, based upon their method of obtaining civic energy, which seems rather timeless: "Spirit of Governments" https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-14-02-0203 https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-14-02-020...

> a new ethnic stalemate between a racially mixed working class and a white elite *sigh* It's really hard to take seriously anyone with the opinion that there are no working class whites.

lordnacho 5y ago
I took it as meaning there are white, black, others, and mixed people who are working class, but elites are always white.
- senkora 5y ago
  I think both meanings are plausible in this context. "Racially mixed" could reasonably suggest "mixed race", and "mixed race" always means multi-racial in English. Mestizo is a similar term. The author could have chosen a clearer phrasing to avoid this problem.
01100011 5y ago
I don't think that's what those words mean. It's saying the elites are white. That does not exclude whites from the racially mixed elite.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
MauroIksem 5y ago
That's not what he means. Whites are included in the mixed mixed class.

hyko 5y ago

Cool premise, catchy headline, doesn’t fit the known facts.

dang 5y ago
"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- hyko 5y ago
  Sorry dang. I appreciate the work you do keeping HN on point, so you have my personal thanks for that. I suspect the job is getting harder and I don’t want to contribute to the problem. I’ve been flagged twice now in one day. I’m not sure if my comments have become less substantive over time, or if the world has. But after ten years of commenting on here, I think the time has come for me to find a new hobby.

slig 5y ago

In one picture: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/29/sao-paulo-injustice-tuca-vieira-inequality-photograph-paraisopolis https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/29/sao-paulo-inj...

augusto-moura 5y ago
I don't think the image has to do with the term Brazilianization, it shows a brazilian problem sure, but the term is deeper than social inequalities, is more about not reaching a never ending promise of future

DoingIsLearning 5y ago

> Just look at Italian elites’ desperation to remain part of euro, despite the penury to which it subjects the country and the destruction of any future for it. It is an absolutely false hyperbole to claim that the Euro is the cause of economic decline and the destruction of Italian future. I was in agreement with the general premise of the article but this wild claim written as a fact makes me question all the other claims that I lack the knowledge to challenge.

127 5y ago
Your quote doesn't seem to say anything such. It's the decision of the elites, not euro itself. Also, I don't see how it's that far off the mark. Germany enjoys the benefits of strong exports, at the cost of the periphery. It's actually a pretty well known and often commented about fact. Italy is one of the biggest losers from joining the euro system.
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
  Beside Germany, which other countries have massively benefitted from the Euro?
  - Bancakes 5y ago
    Eastern European developing states.
  - iagovar 5y ago
    The Netherlands and some eastern ones.
- wink 5y ago
  Honestly curious what part (not regional) of Germany should have directly benefitted in your opinion. I was too young at the time (just finishing school) but in the span of 1-2 years it seemed that all prices were adjusted back to the old value, but we had traded in our money at 2:1. The beers I bought in a pub were 4-5 DM and not soon after it was 3 EUR, that's definitely not due to inflation. The difference was basically so shockingly large that I actively wondered how this would work out in the next years. You mentioned exports, so maybe "the economy as a whole" or everyone already having their company running. Also I've seen housing prices go sideways in the 00s, but not sure if that's completely unrelated.

ravieira 5y ago

For those who enjoyed the article, and are further interested in reading more about this central theme of frustrated economic/historical development specially as it took and takes place in Brazil, I recommend reading the late Professor Darcy Ribeiro. In my view, largely influenced by Ribeiro, Brazil's elites are immensely selfish and petty, as well as always stuck in outdated economics and politics (e.g. rural elites have always been way too influential, ). The State is blatantly *negligent* and does not think about serving its people (e.g. let them build and live in favelas and leave them to their faith, build a new housing project but make it 20 miles from the beach and nevermind planning for transportation or education in the area). There's definitely much that I love about Brazilian culture and the "general disposition" of my fellow nationals, but I agree that as a whole we have developed this sense of morbid ironic detachment from our social environment.

speeder 5y ago
It is not just that. For example if you read letters from Dom Pedro I to Dom Pedro II, and also see the opinions they had, both believed Brazillian economy was backwards and stupid, they believed strongly that it would be far more profitable, not just for the country, but even for the large landowners, if they agreed with the end of slavery, because it would create a consumer class (among other things). I also saw similar issues regarding modernization of manufacturing, with the government wanting it but the elite resisting. When the State finally ended slavery for good (after many attempts! For example one thing I was never taught in school, is that Brazil explicitly allowed England to sink Brazillian slaver ships way before slavery officially ended, as an attempt to end slavery while not antagonizing the elite), instead the elite kicked the government out and created its own. Things basically remain this way, whenever the leadership is promising, the elite kick it out somehow.
- lanna 5y ago
  > Brazil explicitly allowed England to sink Brazillian slaver ships Killing all slaves in the ship?
  - 5y ago

TheGigaChad 5y ago

Communist blabbing, they can go to Venezuela and enjoy their utopia.

brazilnawtion 5y ago

Given the author's posts on twitter and how his arguments are organized in the article, it just show how a political view spreads on all his views of the world and how facts doesn't matter

didibus 5y ago

> In political terms, Brazilianization means patrimonialism, clientelism, and corruption. Rather than see these as aberrations, we should understand them as the normal state of politics when widely shared economic progress is not available, and the socialist Left cannot act as a countervailing force. It was the industrial proletariat and socialist politics that kept liberalism honest, and prevented elites from instrumentalizing the state for their own interests. It's a long article, but I think this quote summarizes it for people who want a TL;DR

fcanesin 5y ago

"The important stuff—the really valuable ideas—were now protected by intellectual property rights" There are several reasons why China/Japan/Korea had very little regard for international IP on its high growth years - Brazil should do the same. Being per capita poor means that majority cannot consume imported goods, sometimes those are important for further development like machines, methods and tools - for small and even medium size entrepreneurs.

f00zz 5y ago

Only skimmed through it, but looks like a fairly typical specimen of the verborrhea produced by the Brazilian intelligentsia (who themselves usually come from the very elite that they claim to hate), except that this time it's written in English Telltale shibboleths: neoliberal capitalism as the big villain (Brazil has one of the lowest trade/GDP ratios in the world, heck I wish neoliberalism was our biggest problem), an unhealthy obsession with "neoliberal" former president Fernando Henrique Cardoso (thanks to him for selling the "state-owned family jewels", growing up in the 90s we didn't have a phone line, only the rich could afford one from the the state-owned phone company), and "institutional coup in 2016" was the icing on the cake

rafaelero 5y ago
I agree. This is the typical text that is used in Economics classes in Brazilian universities. 4 years of that I am very tired of this type of content. No attempt to explain why things came about the way authors think they did; too much reliance on the "agency of the elites" (how could they intentionally stop a country from developing? And why would they do that?). Also, I don't think Brazil is a special example at all. It has a GDP per capita very close to what would be predicted by its human capital. The interesting cases are Chile and Argentina (why one was so successful and the other so miserable in the last decades?).
- lhorie 5y ago
  > how could they intentionally stop a country from developing? Isn't the petrobras scandal a good example of that? Or before that, the ridiculous culmination of the "steals but does" campaign by Maluf? My understanding is that the IOF tax is in place precisely as an attempt from the government to keep tabs on the volume of siphoning of currency by politicians to Miami and tax havens elsewhere. While I'm not particularly convinced of some of accusations thrown around by article, there's at least an attempt to analyze the situation, rather than the usual shrugging off the status quo.
  - rafaelero 5y ago
    Corruption by itself can't hold a country down, otherwise China would not present such enormous growth during last decades. Human capital is the underlying factor that contributes to corruption, slow economic growth, criminality, etc. I wish there was a straightforward way to improve that, but I am a bit cynical.

lhorie 5y ago

In a nutshell, the article argues about similarities between Brazil sociopolitical landscape and that of other western powers (mostly US and EU). The similarities, it argues, are that the capitalist system consists of growth based on exploiting peripheral groups to the benefit of the elites. The repercussions are indeed clear: erosion of employment (e.g. the tipping system in the US, air quote "contractors" barely making minimum wage, multiple jobs to make ends meet, etc), a growing sense of disconnect between the people and government as an entity to drive social improvements, the rise of corporate lobbying, etc. Even if specifics are different, it seems easy to agree with the premise that first world countries are headed to the same fate of "endless frustration" that characterizes Brazilian socioeconomics and politics. I think it's telling that the author felt the need to reach for Brazil as an allegory to avoid the tired capitalism-vs-socialism bickering that plagues discussions about economic policy and social inequality. Nobody wants to hear that their own capitalist pursuit of success is fundamentally perched on exploitation. It's less awkward to point and shake heads at Brazil. In a way, Brazil is a perfect poster child of the sociopolitical ailments of the world: its inadequacies serve quite appropriately as caricatures of the inadequacies of the western world, but its society is so alienated that people can't even be bothered to attempt to mount a patriotic defense of its ways.

visualradio 5y ago

Setting aside economics, James Madison developed an interesting categorization of systems of governance, based upon their method of obtaining civic energy, which seems rather timeless: "Spirit of Governments" https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-14-02-0203 https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-14-02-020...