7 ms·

FYI for anyone on a Mac: The Preview App has a feature to sign any PDF or image using your trackpad.

sp332 5y ago
I've seen people complain that Preview can be inaccurate and shouldn't be trusted for important legal documents (like the ones you might want to sign). https://mobile.twitter.com/sunshowers6/status/1393005107373961217 https://mobile.twitter.com/sunshowers6/status/13930051073739... Anyone else have experience with this?
- doomrobo 5y ago
  Yes I've had a large number of issues around annotations in Preview. I use PDFExpert for annotations now
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- cj 5y ago
  I used to have issues, but the simple fix is this: Instead of simply saving the signed PDF in preview and sending it out, export the PDF as another PDF (there’s an option to do that in the File dropdown). I’ve found that doing that fixes all comparability issues (based on signing 5-10 docs a week). Edit: Before someone tells me I should be using Acrobat, I know, but for some reason it runs painful slow on the new Apple M1’s.
  - divbzero 5y ago
    Yes, re-exporting to another PDF works reliably and also ensures you don’t leave anything editable if you’ve used text fields.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- traceroute66 5y ago
  Preview shouldn't be trusted for legal documents ? I would call that Apple bashing nonsense. Mac, Windows, Linux, BSD ... if you're going to go signing legal documents (a) with a self-signed certificate (b) without an independently traceable timestamp .... then frankly don't expect it to hold up for long in a law court.
  - sp332 5y ago
    How is "the wrong checkbox being selected" related to certificates and timestamps? And the signatures we're taking about are an image of a signature, not a cryptographic one.
    - traceroute66 5y ago
      How do we know "the wrong checkbox being selected" was a Preview problem and not something to do with non-standard PDF construction ? Also, I don't know about you, but AFAIK pretty much all software these days (whether closed-source or open) comes with a great big disclaimer attached effectively saying "you're on your own" if the software functions in an unexpected manner.
  - jokethrowaway 5y ago
    That depends on how the file is delivered. Drawing your signature is not even needed. That said, most of the times I need a signature is some bureaucratic useless form and the signature is just a pro-forma - and you can be sure if I don't have a signature (and maybe if I didn't pass my form through a filter to make it look like it was scanned) some government employee in some office will reject my form and I'll have to do another one and fork out even more money.
- ezfe 5y ago
  Any document that's just text or a scan won't have an issue. Preview (and many others!) can have some problems with complex fancy fillable forms (such as tax forms). I've never seen an instance where it wasn't immediately obvious whether there was a problem though.
- the_arun 5y ago
  I think e-signatures with strong auth will make it valid. Not sure signing a doc on preview will make it legal. I mean, could anyone sign my sign using preview and get the contract done? Who ensures the signature belongs to me?
  - joppy 5y ago
    During my time I spent in the USA (I’m from Australia), I was very surprised at the way money and transactions worked. This was 2014/2015 - in Aus pretty much every consumer bank already had paywave (or whatever compatible technology) cards, which either paywave or also ask you for a PIN if the transaction is large, and here I was in the USA being asked to swipe my card and sign for things. In small transactions (say, less than $100), no-one really cared - I would scribble my signature on a docket, no-one would double-check it with my card, everyone went on their way. Signatures were required but not respected or checked. In large transactions (I bought a MacBook, for example), the staff could not care less about my card or the signature scrawled on the back, but they would only take my money after I could produce some photo ID (a passport in my case) showing that the name on the card correlated to my face. In this case signatures were technically required but totally ignored because they’re easily forgeable. (A fact I’ve always been bemused by is that the signature is on the card - if you drop your card or something the signature is right there). End of long story - how valid are “just signatures” legally? As someone with zero legal experience (clearly qualified to comment) I feel like other evidence showing that someone received and signed the document would be much more valid than just “the signature” by itself.
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    The signature pretty much only gets checked if it is contested. As much as anything, the act of signing is a demonstration of intent (and in cases of fraud, it's a demonstration of fraudulent intent...). It's not really authentication.
- unfocused 5y ago
  I worked in this space and personally digitally signed hundreds of documents, using Entrust and FoxIT (Adobe Pro could be used too). I've found sometimes that Preview mangles some PDFs created in Adobe. In addition, there are many cases FoxIT (PhantomePDF) also mangles or can't even open PDFs that are *complex in nature that were created in Adobe Pro. To be fair, I just signed some bank documents, and it was all inside their system and it just consisted of me checking a checkbox. It was their system, so it was considered a signature, since I logged into their system first. Once you get into power usage, such as redaction in the legal world, Adobe is the only product that doesn't have bugs. I've tried. It's a sad state of affairs, but yeah that's the world. *And by complex, I mean 1GB pdfs with 1000s in pages that have Adobe's embedded audio/video as well as scanned handwritten notes and photos., not 1 or 2 simple pages.
s09dfhks 5y ago
you can also sign a piece of paper and hold it up to the webcam!
- bengale 5y ago
  I’m almost sure you can select to sign on your iPad or iPhone too and it brings up a little drawing box on them.
  - andylynch 5y ago
    You can. I did this the other day and it’s great
  - sethhochberg 5y ago
    FYI, you can also use this family of features to scan entire documents: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209037 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209037 They call it "Continuity Camera", and it is probably my single favorite little feature in the Apple ecosystem. Nothing revolutionary, but just something simple done really well - and when you need it, you really need it.
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
And if you don't have a trackpad, it instructs you to sign a blank piece of paper and hold it up to the webcam!
- joppy 5y ago
  Which usually turns out a lot better - I tried signing on a trackpad but it looked like a preschooler signing their name :P
  - mtmail 5y ago
    https://seedlegals.com/ https://seedlegals.com/ asked me to use my mouse for an online signature. In their FAQ they say I can't upload an existing one, quote "This is for security reasons, so that we know it is really you signing. [...], you might find it easier to perfect that sign on your phone / tablet with a touchscreen." I borrowed an iPad+Pencil from a friend and signed it with the pen, that kind of worked.
    - joppy 5y ago
      Yeah, tablet and stylus is one of the best solutions for this. Even finger-on-iPhone is pretty janky-looking.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    This is going to sound really weird, but I was able to create a decent trackpad signature once I got into the right mental state. I held my pointer finger between my thumb and middle finger, and made myself really think of it as a pencil. I looked down at the trackpad as I wrote (rather than at the screen), and tried to visualize the trail it would leave on the surface.
    - joppy 5y ago
      That does sound super weird but I can see how it would work! I’d probably still prefer a stylus though :P
tlarkworthy 5y ago
I wish I had known that!
- divbzero 5y ago
  Another useful trick is opening Preview’s thumbnails sidebar to edit PDFs. You can command-delete to remove PDF pages, and drag-and-drop to reorder or copy pages between different PDFs.
izacus 5y ago
Preview can't apply proper PDF signature though - while Adobe Acrobat Reader (the free one) can. Many countries can issue a digital certificate that can be used with these documents to make them legally and properly signed.
- IshKebab 5y ago
  Many countries? Really? I have literally never seen anyone ever use any cryptograph signature features of PDF.
  - wtf_is_up 5y ago
    It's pretty common in DoD space to sign PDFs using CAC (Common Access Card) PKI certs.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  That's interesting, haven't heard of countries using pdf digital certificates. I've heard a few countries implemented certified email: anything in a certified email is considered a legal document (including a plain pdf)
  - izacus 5y ago
    It's not "country using signed PDFs" but "country issuing a digital certificate you can use for identity in email and document signing". Such certificate is useful for PDF signing besides other uses.
divbzero 5y ago
The Preview app is one of the gems of macOS and a major reason I’ve stuck with Apple computers.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  I say the same about KDE's counterpart, Okular (and tons of others, Kate, klipper, kolourpaint) truly great software.

I've seen people complain that Preview can be inaccurate and shouldn't be trusted for important legal documents (like the ones you might want to sign). https://mobile.twitter.com/sunshowers6/status/1393005107373961217 https://mobile.twitter.com/sunshowers6/status/13930051073739... Anyone else have experience with this?

doomrobo 5y ago
Yes I've had a large number of issues around annotations in Preview. I use PDFExpert for annotations now
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cj 5y ago
I used to have issues, but the simple fix is this: Instead of simply saving the signed PDF in preview and sending it out, export the PDF as another PDF (there’s an option to do that in the File dropdown). I’ve found that doing that fixes all comparability issues (based on signing 5-10 docs a week). Edit: Before someone tells me I should be using Acrobat, I know, but for some reason it runs painful slow on the new Apple M1’s.
- divbzero 5y ago
  Yes, re-exporting to another PDF works reliably and also ensures you don’t leave anything editable if you’ve used text fields.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
traceroute66 5y ago
Preview shouldn't be trusted for legal documents ? I would call that Apple bashing nonsense. Mac, Windows, Linux, BSD ... if you're going to go signing legal documents (a) with a self-signed certificate (b) without an independently traceable timestamp .... then frankly don't expect it to hold up for long in a law court.
- sp332 5y ago
  How is "the wrong checkbox being selected" related to certificates and timestamps? And the signatures we're taking about are an image of a signature, not a cryptographic one.
  - traceroute66 5y ago
    How do we know "the wrong checkbox being selected" was a Preview problem and not something to do with non-standard PDF construction ? Also, I don't know about you, but AFAIK pretty much all software these days (whether closed-source or open) comes with a great big disclaimer attached effectively saying "you're on your own" if the software functions in an unexpected manner.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  That depends on how the file is delivered. Drawing your signature is not even needed. That said, most of the times I need a signature is some bureaucratic useless form and the signature is just a pro-forma - and you can be sure if I don't have a signature (and maybe if I didn't pass my form through a filter to make it look like it was scanned) some government employee in some office will reject my form and I'll have to do another one and fork out even more money.
ezfe 5y ago
Any document that's just text or a scan won't have an issue. Preview (and many others!) can have some problems with complex fancy fillable forms (such as tax forms). I've never seen an instance where it wasn't immediately obvious whether there was a problem though.
the_arun 5y ago
I think e-signatures with strong auth will make it valid. Not sure signing a doc on preview will make it legal. I mean, could anyone sign my sign using preview and get the contract done? Who ensures the signature belongs to me?
- joppy 5y ago
  During my time I spent in the USA (I’m from Australia), I was very surprised at the way money and transactions worked. This was 2014/2015 - in Aus pretty much every consumer bank already had paywave (or whatever compatible technology) cards, which either paywave or also ask you for a PIN if the transaction is large, and here I was in the USA being asked to swipe my card and sign for things. In small transactions (say, less than $100), no-one really cared - I would scribble my signature on a docket, no-one would double-check it with my card, everyone went on their way. Signatures were required but not respected or checked. In large transactions (I bought a MacBook, for example), the staff could not care less about my card or the signature scrawled on the back, but they would only take my money after I could produce some photo ID (a passport in my case) showing that the name on the card correlated to my face. In this case signatures were technically required but totally ignored because they’re easily forgeable. (A fact I’ve always been bemused by is that the signature is on the card - if you drop your card or something the signature is right there). End of long story - how valid are “just signatures” legally? As someone with zero legal experience (clearly qualified to comment) I feel like other evidence showing that someone received and signed the document would be much more valid than just “the signature” by itself.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  The signature pretty much only gets checked if it is contested. As much as anything, the act of signing is a demonstration of intent (and in cases of fraud, it's a demonstration of fraudulent intent...). It's not really authentication.
unfocused 5y ago
I worked in this space and personally digitally signed hundreds of documents, using Entrust and FoxIT (Adobe Pro could be used too). I've found sometimes that Preview mangles some PDFs created in Adobe. In addition, there are many cases FoxIT (PhantomePDF) also mangles or can't even open PDFs that are *complex in nature that were created in Adobe Pro. To be fair, I just signed some bank documents, and it was all inside their system and it just consisted of me checking a checkbox. It was their system, so it was considered a signature, since I logged into their system first. Once you get into power usage, such as redaction in the legal world, Adobe is the only product that doesn't have bugs. I've tried. It's a sad state of affairs, but yeah that's the world. *And by complex, I mean 1GB pdfs with 1000s in pages that have Adobe's embedded audio/video as well as scanned handwritten notes and photos., not 1 or 2 simple pages.

s09dfhks 5y ago

you can also sign a piece of paper and hold it up to the webcam!

bengale 5y ago
I’m almost sure you can select to sign on your iPad or iPhone too and it brings up a little drawing box on them.
- andylynch 5y ago
  You can. I did this the other day and it’s great
- sethhochberg 5y ago
  FYI, you can also use this family of features to scan entire documents: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209037 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209037 They call it "Continuity Camera", and it is probably my single favorite little feature in the Apple ecosystem. Nothing revolutionary, but just something simple done really well - and when you need it, you really need it.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago

And if you don't have a trackpad, it instructs you to sign a blank piece of paper and hold it up to the webcam!

joppy 5y ago
Which usually turns out a lot better - I tried signing on a trackpad but it looked like a preschooler signing their name :P
- mtmail 5y ago
  https://seedlegals.com/ https://seedlegals.com/ asked me to use my mouse for an online signature. In their FAQ they say I can't upload an existing one, quote "This is for security reasons, so that we know it is really you signing. [...], you might find it easier to perfect that sign on your phone / tablet with a touchscreen." I borrowed an iPad+Pencil from a friend and signed it with the pen, that kind of worked.
  - joppy 5y ago
    Yeah, tablet and stylus is one of the best solutions for this. Even finger-on-iPhone is pretty janky-looking.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  This is going to sound really weird, but I was able to create a decent trackpad signature once I got into the right mental state. I held my pointer finger between my thumb and middle finger, and made myself really think of it as a pencil. I looked down at the trackpad as I wrote (rather than at the screen), and tried to visualize the trail it would leave on the surface.
  - joppy 5y ago
    That does sound super weird but I can see how it would work! I’d probably still prefer a stylus though :P

tlarkworthy 5y ago

I wish I had known that!

divbzero 5y ago
Another useful trick is opening Preview’s thumbnails sidebar to edit PDFs. You can command-delete to remove PDF pages, and drag-and-drop to reorder or copy pages between different PDFs.

izacus 5y ago

Preview can't apply proper PDF signature though - while Adobe Acrobat Reader (the free one) can. Many countries can issue a digital certificate that can be used with these documents to make them legally and properly signed.

IshKebab 5y ago
Many countries? Really? I have literally never seen anyone ever use any cryptograph signature features of PDF.
- wtf_is_up 5y ago
  It's pretty common in DoD space to sign PDFs using CAC (Common Access Card) PKI certs.
jokethrowaway 5y ago
That's interesting, haven't heard of countries using pdf digital certificates. I've heard a few countries implemented certified email: anything in a certified email is considered a legal document (including a plain pdf)
- izacus 5y ago
  It's not "country using signed PDFs" but "country issuing a digital certificate you can use for identity in email and document signing". Such certificate is useful for PDF signing besides other uses.

divbzero 5y ago

The Preview app is one of the gems of macOS and a major reason I’ve stuck with Apple computers.

jokethrowaway 5y ago
I say the same about KDE's counterpart, Okular (and tons of others, Kate, klipper, kolourpaint) truly great software.