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Hold on there, cowboy. 100k was maybe "sky high" 20 years ago. 100k in most large cities is not. When your modest house costs $800k USD, a car costs 30k, auto
by apercu 5y ago
Hold on there, cowboy.
100k was maybe "sky high" 20 years ago. 100k in most large cities is not. When your modest house costs $800k USD, a car costs 30k, auto insurance is $1600 a year, groceries are 10k a year (looking at you, Toronto), just how in the hell is 100k "sky high"?
$80k was a decent salary in a mid-size city 15 years ago.
Just because six figures seems like a lot of money to you doesn't mean it's a lot of money.
- bluescrn 5y agoIt's still sky-high to most of the world outside the US
- Joker_vD 5y agoIt seems that the wealthiest countries also have higher cost of living (for the same level of life). I guess it kinda makes sense in a way.
- reader_mode 5y agoNot true at all, most Western Europe 100k$ (80k EUR) is barely above average, you'd still be firmly middle class even on two such incomes, sky high would be at least twice that much.
- bluescrn 5y agoMedian income in the UK is just over £30k (about 35k EUR)
- reader_mode 5y agoAnd London ?
- CRConrad 5y agoWTF does that have to do with anything? Isn't this whole discussion about how the WMF shouldn't be based in the fricking most overpriced city they can find?
- reader_mode 5y agoYeah you're going to get amazing executive candidates in Wales for eg., background in sheep herding and farm management will translate to running Wikipedia quite nicely I think.
- apercu 5y agoWe're on hacker news. What is the median for people in UK that that do what we do?
- crimsoneer 5y agoHonestly, not that much higher...i think? I'm a data science person so not dev, but feel like salaries above 65k or so not hugely common?
- M2Ys4U 5y ago£44k according to the April 2020 release of the Annual Survey for Hours and Earnings by the Office for National Statistics. That is the figure for "programmers and software development professionals", anyway.
- MaKey 5y agoWhat? In Germany an income of 80k EUR will put you into the top 10% of all earners, so you will be upper class. Especially on two such incomes.
- reader_mode 5y agoYou just prove my point - top 10% is not sky high ? It's what you would expect for a professional in demand. And unless you have savings that income puts you in upper middle class, you can afford a nice lifestyle, but you won't be buying any luxury cars or high end homes. Sky high is at least top 1%. Maybe top 5% in high income areas. In Eastern Europe you begin to approach this at 80k.
- heavyset_go 5y ago> In Germany an income of 80k EUR will put you into the top 10% of all earners, so you will be upper class. Upper middle class maybe. People in the upper class don't need to work.
- MaKey 5y agoNo, upper class if you go by the definition of the German Economic Institute [0]. [0] https://www.iwkoeln.de/en.html https://www.iwkoeln.de/en.html
- max_hammer 5y agoAt 11 years of engineering experience I am getting `66K` annual salary in Berlin. But rent is getting crazy here, a 60 sqm apartment will cost you 1300+ utility.
- jiofih 5y agoYou have no idea what you’re talking about. Average salaries in WE are 25-40k.
- reader_mode 5y agoFor what casheers and janitors ? I'm talking about highly skilled professionals. If your making 80k you're making an average in that group, it's certainly not sky high
- benhurmarcel 5y agoA junior engineer (with a Masters) in most of western Europe makes 30-40k€/year before taxes. After 10 years, he'll make 50-70k€/year.
- reader_mode 5y agoIf you have a masters, >3 years of experience and aren't making 50-70k in Wester Europe, you either don't put emphasis on your career, or you need to switch jobs and work on your negotiation skills.
- benhurmarcel 5y agoIn Germany and Scandinavia maybe. In France, Spain, Italy, etc, this is normal. For example here [1] you can see some reliable statistics for France, see page 2 (it's in French but the plots are easy to understand). The median salary (annual before taxes) when starting is 35k€, and roughly increases by 1800€/year. So it only reaches 40k€ after 3 years. It reaches 50k€ after 8 years only. Also all engineers have Masters in continental Europe. You can't be an engineer without one. It's nothing special. [1] https://www.iesf.fr/offres/doc_inline_src/752/IESF_Synthese_EnqueteIESF2020.pdf https://www.iesf.fr/offres/doc_inline_src/752/IESF_Synthese_...
- reader_mode 5y agoSorry I assumed we're talking about Software Engineering here, I accept your point. But Italy and Spain aren't really what I would consider Western Europe, they are the less developed parts and I admit I have no experience with France and know nobody who works there.
- iSnow 5y ago80k annually works out to 6700 EUR/m If Wikipedia(1) is semi-accurate, no (ZERO) major European county surpasses this. Not even Switzerland which clocks in at 70k EUR. And that's average, the mean is even lower due to skew by those making top money. (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage#Gross_average_monthly_salaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...
- IQunder130 5y agoMean and average are the same thing. You might be referring to the median instead.
- iSnow 5y agoYes, thanks.
- reader_mode 5y agoIn Europe that nets you about 50-60% after mandatory pension, health insurance and income tax. You listed net incomes. 6.7 gross will be >4k net And slap 20-25% VAT on top. That money is really not that much, a generalist MD would make that for eg.
- iSnow 5y agoI specifically linked to gross income, it's 5882 EUR/m in Switzerland according to Wikipedia, or 70.5K EUR annually. Germany is 48k EUR gross, around 30k net.
- reader_mode 5y agoSorry it scrolled up for me. To be considered sky high in my book you need to be actually rich - able to afford luxuries such as own a luxury home, driving a premium car, be able to rent a yacht for a vacation - you need to be making >150k for your income to be noteworthy, otherwise you're just doing well off - higher middle class. Sorry but there's nothing sky high about earning 80k EUR per year and living in London, Zurich, Oslo, Amsterdam, Munich, etc. you barely stand out, especially if you socialise with other college educated workers, you're probably the norm or below it for career people.
- x3ro 5y agoThis is absolute bogus. Here's [1] data from 2019. With about 3500 Euros net income (works out to about 75k before tax if you're single) You're in the top 10% _of all households_. With two times that (so two e.g. a household of two people earning 80k) you'd be in the top 1%. [1]: https://www.iwkoeln.de/fileadmin/user_upload/HTML/2019/einkommensverteilung/index.html https://www.iwkoeln.de/fileadmin/user_upload/HTML/2019/einko... PS: Data is for Germany.
- reader_mode 5y agoI'm sure 100k is a lot in rural Alabama as well. How about giving numbers for say Munich[1] ? > Also from the diagram, 75% of the population are earning less than 10,400 EUR while 25% are earning more than 10,400 EUR. If 25% of the city is making more money than you you are not rich by any definition. I have friends living in Munich, friend is a SW engineer, makes 75k, his wife has her own business so I'm not sure how much she makes, they are very much middle class lifestyle and can't afford to live in the wealthy areas. Sorry to burst your bubble but you're not rich if you make 80k/year, you're just (maybe upper) middle class, even in EU. [1] http://www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-survey.php?loc=982&loctype=3#:~:text=A%20person%20working%20in%20Munchen%20typically%20earns%20around%204%2C200%20EUR,%2C%20transport%2C%20and%20other%20benefits http://www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-survey.php?loc=982&loct....
- x3ro 5y agoI personally live in Hamburg, one of the most expensive cities in Germany, and I've yet to see a developer salary above 90k. Juniors enter around 40k, seniors get around 60-90k depending on experience. That's not to say that salaries beyond 100k don't exist, but they're extremely rare. Edit: Also it's completely unclear to me how this point relates to your initial gross misrepresentation of compensation in western Europe.
- reader_mode 5y agoWhat's my gross misrepresentation ? I said making 80k is not noteworthy at all (we are discussing CEO/exec compensation here not casheer salaries), you just agreed with me. OP suggested that 100k$/year not being noteworthy is a uniquely SV/US thing - it is not. Any place worth living in Europe will take that much to live comfortably (note. 100k USD = 80k EUR)
- drdavid 5y agoI like how y'all are arguing over what a vague term actually means. "Sky high" isn't actually anything specific and it's rather relative. Reading through the thread, almost everyone has their own definition for 'sky high'.
- yanderekko 5y agoYep. This is why I don't leave tips at US restaurants, because the servers' base $3/hour salary is still "sky high" compared to a comparable job in Sri Lanka. /s
- detaro 5y agoAt a US restaurant it's sort-of relevant that the server is in the US. In contrast, when using a website you get 0 benefit from the people building it being in San Francisco.
- cedilla 5y agoIt's more than twice the median salary. It is quite high. Upper class income only seem lackluster compared to the perverse 0.1% incomes and the housing bubble.
- throwaway438 5y agoThere isn't a housing bubble when the government does everything possible to prevent the bubble from bursting. The median salary in the USA is a joke for people that are without any relatives supporting them financially for a mortgage, that will never afford a decent home that's actually located somewhere desirable and until in they reach their 40s.
- cedilla 5y agoHalf of people live with less than that joke by definition, and most don't have the privilege to be supported by wealthy relatives, either.
- throwaway438 5y agoExactly it's a giant joke and when homes were affordable 30 years ago. So it's ridiculous when people act like wages are too high while ignoring inflation without the ability to afford a home unless the wages match what's needed.
- apercu 5y agoIt's bullshit. Call it what it is. When people say that wages are fine they are being disingenuous or they are willfully ignorant.
- colordrops 5y agoThat salary is enough to sustain a comfortable middle class life and is not sky high. The problem is the ever-increasing wealth gap that has decimated the middle class since the 70s and that everyone else's salaries are gutter-low.
- 5y ago
- h_anna_h 5y ago> When your modest house costs $800k USD, a car costs 30k, auto insurance is $1600 a year, groceries are 10k a year (looking at you, Toronto) How did you get these costs? You can get a French Chateau with that much money. https://www.prestigeproperty.co.uk/french-chateau-for-sale-29/p-French%20Chateau/pg-1/mx-750000/s-l/ https://www.prestigeproperty.co.uk/french-chateau-for-sale-2...
- arilotter 5y agoIn Toronto (and I mean Toronto proper, not an hour's commute away), a modest house is easily over 1,000,000, and prices are only climbing.
- apercu 5y agoAn hour from Toronto houses are close to a million dollars. I am 30 km from the financial district. I live in a modest house in a modest neighbourhood. My house would list for around 900k and there would be a bidding war. I paid $340k for this house 13 years ago. I thought that was far too expensive but I didn't have a choice.
- pmoriarty 5y agoThese people could work from anywhere.. especially today that working remote has become the norm, but even if working remote wasn't an option there's no reason they have to live in an expensive city. They could commute, just like most of the rest of us who can't afford to live in rich cities. Wikimedia is a global foundation, so they don't have to live in the US even. They could have easily hired someone from a country with a much lower cost of living.
- apercu 5y agoI have ~17 years experience (maybe more) with outsourcing to cheaper countries to "save money". It's never been effective on anything valuable I have worked on. No money was ever saved. Just took more time from those near near the client.
- lrem 5y agoBrilliant idea: cut those costs 10x by moving the staff to Belarus. What can possibly go wrong?
- jhaygood86 5y agoI live in a "large city" (suburbs in a top 10 metro in the US) and $800k gets you a mansion here still. My 3400 sq ft house is worth ~$350k for a "almost new build" (I had it built in 2015) 6 bed / 4 bath, gigabit fiber, swimming pool / soccer field in the community, great schools, shopping, etc.. I'm also a Principal SWE and my salary is well below $200k, though there are years with bonuses, etc.. that I reach $200k
- apercu 5y agoSo you live in in an area that have massive urban sprawl and no bounding area driving up the costs (like say San Francisco or Toronto or London). Good for you and your urban sprawl McMansion existence (nothing wrong with it). But just because you can buy a mansion where you live for 800k doesn't mean that for millions of us 1 million dollars will get us a shitty house in a shitty area.