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I wonder if any Russians can weigh in if this still feels accurate. I'm familiar with Polish Culture, which is less fun, frivolous, and happy than American cult

I wonder if any Russians can weigh in if this still feels accurate. I'm familiar with Polish Culture, which is less fun, frivolous, and happy than American culture, but a smile is certainly not an attack, just reserved for genuine occasions. Service people are in no way expected to smile unless there is some honest reason to.

j4yav 5y ago
I can imagine a drunk person reacting as described, but mainly because drunk people are unpredictable. I think otherwise though it you smile a lot for no reason people will think you are a little foolish or loony, but it isn’t dangerous. I agree with the author that Americans and Russians have a surprising amount of similarities when you get past some surface level differences.
- flemhans 5y ago
  Anecdotally, the only unprovoked bad interaction I've had with a drunk guy was also in Riga. He'd come and take my beer out of my hand, and taunt me with it, refusing to give it back.
ArkanExplorer 5y ago
Its down to latitude. The latitude of Warsaw is 52.2° N, which is about the same latitude as northern Canada (Edmonton). Moscow is 55.7, which is the same as southern Alaska. Days are shorter, darker, and colder. It has an impact on your mood. Plus, the average income for a Pole is $18,000/year, whereas for the average White American worker its $40,000/year. Cost of living is often lower in America than in Poland (excepting Seattle, NY etc.). So materially the average American is a lot better off.
- tester756 5y ago
  >Cost of living is often lower in America than in Poland (excepting Seattle, NY etc.). So materially the average American is a lot better off. Is it?
  - dougmwne 5y ago
    No way, only if you look at cars and iPhones. If you include healthcare and education, the median Pole is miles ahead.
    - adventured 5y ago
      Poland is not miles ahead of the US on education at the median, that is not remotely close to being true. http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/education/ http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/education/ Nationally the US is near the OECD middle, and ahead of both Britain and New Zealand on education. Poland certainly scores well, not "miles ahead" well. About 1/3 of Americans are getting a four year degree these days. The university systems in the US are vastly superior to anything Poland has. A third tier university in the US is as good as a first tier university in Poland. Forget about the second or first tier universities, Poland has nothing like a University of Virginia, Michigan or UCLA (all second tier), much less the elite schools. Which is why Poland isn't producing very much in the way of innovation or economic output. Poland's economy hasn't net expanded since 2008 (even before the pandemic), if their education system was so great it would show up in their economy. Poland is also not miles ahead on healthcare at the median. The median American has full healthcare coverage and has faster access to healthcare than most socialized medicine nations, including Canada (where you'll wait months or years for procedures that Americans can get in weeks). We're talking about the median here, which is: an American earning $40,000 to $60,000 per year, with health insurance and richer than the median in either Germany or Sweden. The median American also has routine access to the latest medical technology, which the median Polish person has zero access to. Miles ahead? Nope. And if we're comparing fairly on demographics, the median white American demolishes the median white Pole, dramatically and across the board. The median white American is among the wealthiest medians on the planet (three times richer than the median Swede or German) and has an extreme income only comparable to nations like Switzerland and Norway. The US has taken on a dramatic amount of third-world immigration over the past ~45 years, which has persistently pushed against its median scoring as poor third world immigrants flood into the US (which debases the median as it happens). It takes a long time to lift the education and income levels for tens of millions of people coming from the third world with absolutely nothing and having to learn a new culture and language. That said, pretty soon the median Hispanic person in the US will be richer than the median German or Swede as well, so progress is occurring rapidly.
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  See, now, I happen to have grown up in Edmonton, and people there have the same grinning smiling North American culture as anywhere else on the continent. So, meh, no. And almost half the population there is Ukrainian or Polish descent, too, lots of people only a couple generations or less away from the old country. But people there are pretty mainline North American culture. Now, my father is German... and I grew up with that rather curt and blunt and critical influence, so.
konart 5y ago
>In Russian culture the smile is identified with laughter. Russians do not smile unless something funny happens and provides a reason for laughter. This fundamental difference in perception produces many unfortunate misunderstandings. I think I've read this a few times before and I can hardly agree. While smile to laughter to fun association is strong and rather obvious I think the main reason you see russian smile less often is that genuine smile is the clear sign of good mood and relative well being and we tend to keep those things for our close friends, family and simply a good company we feel click with. And we are too straightforward for a forced\fake smile. If a russian thinks 'go f*ck yourself' about you - it will be on their face. But most likely you will hear it out loud. UPD: I also believe we are less emotional in general. At least when it comes to things like movies, shows etc. I was amazed when I witnessed americans reacting to Game of Thrones...
MarkLowenstein 5y ago
Not Russian but my wife is - grew up there until college age. She was saying this exact thing a couple weeks ago (which is why I took interest in this article): that smiling at a stranger will cause them to dismiss you as stupid. So I'd say Yes.
- firebaze 5y ago
  This story is interesting, but maybe the message is different to what we'd like to perceive?
Krasnol 5y ago
I am Polish and I can not confirm that. I felt a sharp decline in "smiles" after my move to Germany where your description fits much more. I see much more people smiling for no obvious reasons when I visit Poland from time to time. Something which is not perceived as something else but friendliness by my German SO though while I've witnessed Germans being perceived as very cold by US Americans for the way they are. I've been also smilingly welcomed by Russian friends even though they may smile less on the average. I haven't been to Russia yes so I can't tell. Maybe they are just well assimilated here. Maybe it only is all those fake smiles you get from the US service culture which is so over the top that everything else becomes nuanced.
- dougmwne 5y ago
  That makes sense. My main context for comparison is US vs PL, and there's a largish difference between strangers and in public or service people and a much smaller difference with friends and family. If you start talking to a stranger in the grocery store in the US because you were both reaching for the same milk you might get a very big smile. I would never expect such an exaggerated reaction in PL, just a small nod or pardon me. Also, service people are not supposed to be fake smiling, we are actually expecting their emotional labor on top of the labor of their job. They are supposed to be cheering us up with their genuinely good attitude and "changing someone's day for the better" with their smile. It's all pretty exhausting.
  - Krasnol 5y ago
    I've spend a decade working for an F500 US company here in Germany. The amount of bad news delivered with a fake smile was staggering. I lead to pure disgust within the German employee bubble making it actually stronger and the news worse. In the end I've been fired with one of those and some phrase along the "let's stay friends and meet again" line ;) I was always quite surprised that there seems to never have been any online course teaching people who came over those basic things as they we online courses for everything else.
    - dougmwne 5y ago
jagrsw 5y ago
This is a risky hypothesis, but could it have something to do with access to guns? In a society when every stranger can potentially be armed, it might be prudent to somehow display the 'I intend no harm' sign upfront, and smile might be a good proxy for that? The 'the armed society is a polite society' thing? Living in Europe, where owning guns is not common (and carrying personally very very rare), I don't feel compelled to display or require upfront any bigger signs of 'friendliness' to/from strangers, other than 'Hello/Guten Abend/Adieu'. If the situation becomes unpleasant, I can always leave w/o physical consequences (excl. assault situations). In a gun-loving culture, I'd probably put more effort to lower risk of misunderstandings.
- aidenn0 5y ago
  I don't think that's the case at all, based on variations in the US. The upper-class parts of LA are known for superficial friendliness, while New York is not, but in neither region is known for its gun culture. Meanwhile parts of the Midwest that had a lot of Germanic immigrants are perceived as being "cold" compared to the southern states, and both tend to have high rates of gun ownership. When I first moved to Southern California, I found the smiles quite off-putting. Living here for over a decade, I'm sure I do the same now.
- pjlegato 5y ago
  Gun ownership is quite common in many parts of Europe. Finland in particular is nearly the same as the US in terms of percentage of households with firearms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent_of_households_with_guns_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent_of_households_with_gun...
  - OJFord 5y ago
    But [0] they are licenced for specific usages, and carry is not allowed outside of that context, and 'personal protection' hasn't been one (barring extant holders) since 1998. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Finland
drran 5y ago
The situation is pretty serious, guys. Enemies are at the West. Enemies are at the East. Enemies are at the South. Enemies are at the North. Enemies are INSIDE our grandiose Russian civilization! Why are you smiling? Are you stupid? Maybe you dislike our grandiose Russian civilization, with grandiose Russian writers, like Pushkin, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Hohol? Maybe you dislike our grandiose and mighty Russian language? Why are you talking in your stupid English language? Are you liking rotting West culture, which pushes their rotten songs in unprotected ears of our youth? ... And so on 24x7 at Russian TV.
Arech 5y ago
It's as accurate as can be accurate any statement about a culture that spans thousands kilometres from East to West and from South to North and contain multitude of subcultures within itself. I.e. it depends, but "yes" is generally closer to the truth than "no"
daxfohl 5y ago
I spent a couple weeks in Krakow and one thing I noticed was how intensely people maintained eye contact when speaking to you. It seemed to be uniquely Polish, as I didn't notice it in Ukraine, Hungary, Germany, etc. Wondering if anyone else has noticed that or if it was just an anomaly.
shashurup 5y ago
I think it has changed a bit since then. There was not a lot to smile about in Russia in 2002. Not that now we smile at each other every time, but we do this more often and even if we don't faces are a lot less grumpy :)
lostwords 5y ago
It's quite accurate in terms of approach, but there are a lot of situations where smiling is more or less appropriate and wouldn't be considered as a rude move. For example, it's completely okay (almost) for service people to be smiling and approachable although it's not obligatory in any way (especially at small stores). At the same time if you are just smiling at strangers without saying any word, it could be perceived as a rudeness. If you smile and give a light nod, most people will think that you somehow know them. So, it's not that Russians are all grumpy and angry all the time, but they (we) need to have an explanation for your smile, you just can't smile without a reason, if that makes sense.

j4yav 5y ago

I can imagine a drunk person reacting as described, but mainly because drunk people are unpredictable. I think otherwise though it you smile a lot for no reason people will think you are a little foolish or loony, but it isn’t dangerous. I agree with the author that Americans and Russians have a surprising amount of similarities when you get past some surface level differences.

flemhans 5y ago
Anecdotally, the only unprovoked bad interaction I've had with a drunk guy was also in Riga. He'd come and take my beer out of my hand, and taunt me with it, refusing to give it back.

ArkanExplorer 5y ago

Its down to latitude. The latitude of Warsaw is 52.2° N, which is about the same latitude as northern Canada (Edmonton). Moscow is 55.7, which is the same as southern Alaska. Days are shorter, darker, and colder. It has an impact on your mood. Plus, the average income for a Pole is $18,000/year, whereas for the average White American worker its $40,000/year. Cost of living is often lower in America than in Poland (excepting Seattle, NY etc.). So materially the average American is a lot better off.

tester756 5y ago
>Cost of living is often lower in America than in Poland (excepting Seattle, NY etc.). So materially the average American is a lot better off. Is it?
- dougmwne 5y ago
  No way, only if you look at cars and iPhones. If you include healthcare and education, the median Pole is miles ahead.
  - adventured 5y ago
    Poland is not miles ahead of the US on education at the median, that is not remotely close to being true. http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/education/ http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/education/ Nationally the US is near the OECD middle, and ahead of both Britain and New Zealand on education. Poland certainly scores well, not "miles ahead" well. About 1/3 of Americans are getting a four year degree these days. The university systems in the US are vastly superior to anything Poland has. A third tier university in the US is as good as a first tier university in Poland. Forget about the second or first tier universities, Poland has nothing like a University of Virginia, Michigan or UCLA (all second tier), much less the elite schools. Which is why Poland isn't producing very much in the way of innovation or economic output. Poland's economy hasn't net expanded since 2008 (even before the pandemic), if their education system was so great it would show up in their economy. Poland is also not miles ahead on healthcare at the median. The median American has full healthcare coverage and has faster access to healthcare than most socialized medicine nations, including Canada (where you'll wait months or years for procedures that Americans can get in weeks). We're talking about the median here, which is: an American earning $40,000 to $60,000 per year, with health insurance and richer than the median in either Germany or Sweden. The median American also has routine access to the latest medical technology, which the median Polish person has zero access to. Miles ahead? Nope. And if we're comparing fairly on demographics, the median white American demolishes the median white Pole, dramatically and across the board. The median white American is among the wealthiest medians on the planet (three times richer than the median Swede or German) and has an extreme income only comparable to nations like Switzerland and Norway. The US has taken on a dramatic amount of third-world immigration over the past ~45 years, which has persistently pushed against its median scoring as poor third world immigrants flood into the US (which debases the median as it happens). It takes a long time to lift the education and income levels for tens of millions of people coming from the third world with absolutely nothing and having to learn a new culture and language. That said, pretty soon the median Hispanic person in the US will be richer than the median German or Swede as well, so progress is occurring rapidly.
cmrdporcupine 5y ago
See, now, I happen to have grown up in Edmonton, and people there have the same grinning smiling North American culture as anywhere else on the continent. So, meh, no. And almost half the population there is Ukrainian or Polish descent, too, lots of people only a couple generations or less away from the old country. But people there are pretty mainline North American culture. Now, my father is German... and I grew up with that rather curt and blunt and critical influence, so.

konart 5y ago

>In Russian culture the smile is identified with laughter. Russians do not smile unless something funny happens and provides a reason for laughter. This fundamental difference in perception produces many unfortunate misunderstandings. I think I've read this a few times before and I can hardly agree. While smile to laughter to fun association is strong and rather obvious I think the main reason you see russian smile less often is that genuine smile is the clear sign of good mood and relative well being and we tend to keep those things for our close friends, family and simply a good company we feel click with. And we are too straightforward for a forced\fake smile. If a russian thinks 'go f*ck yourself' about you - it will be on their face. But most likely you will hear it out loud. UPD: I also believe we are less emotional in general. At least when it comes to things like movies, shows etc. I was amazed when I witnessed americans reacting to Game of Thrones...

MarkLowenstein 5y ago

Not Russian but my wife is - grew up there until college age. She was saying this exact thing a couple weeks ago (which is why I took interest in this article): that smiling at a stranger will cause them to dismiss you as stupid. So I'd say Yes.

firebaze 5y ago
This story is interesting, but maybe the message is different to what we'd like to perceive?

Krasnol 5y ago

I am Polish and I can not confirm that. I felt a sharp decline in "smiles" after my move to Germany where your description fits much more. I see much more people smiling for no obvious reasons when I visit Poland from time to time. Something which is not perceived as something else but friendliness by my German SO though while I've witnessed Germans being perceived as very cold by US Americans for the way they are. I've been also smilingly welcomed by Russian friends even though they may smile less on the average. I haven't been to Russia yes so I can't tell. Maybe they are just well assimilated here. Maybe it only is all those fake smiles you get from the US service culture which is so over the top that everything else becomes nuanced.

dougmwne 5y ago
That makes sense. My main context for comparison is US vs PL, and there's a largish difference between strangers and in public or service people and a much smaller difference with friends and family. If you start talking to a stranger in the grocery store in the US because you were both reaching for the same milk you might get a very big smile. I would never expect such an exaggerated reaction in PL, just a small nod or pardon me. Also, service people are not supposed to be fake smiling, we are actually expecting their emotional labor on top of the labor of their job. They are supposed to be cheering us up with their genuinely good attitude and "changing someone's day for the better" with their smile. It's all pretty exhausting.
- Krasnol 5y ago
  I've spend a decade working for an F500 US company here in Germany. The amount of bad news delivered with a fake smile was staggering. I lead to pure disgust within the German employee bubble making it actually stronger and the news worse. In the end I've been fired with one of those and some phrase along the "let's stay friends and meet again" line ;) I was always quite surprised that there seems to never have been any online course teaching people who came over those basic things as they we online courses for everything else.
  - dougmwne 5y ago

jagrsw 5y ago

This is a risky hypothesis, but could it have something to do with access to guns? In a society when every stranger can potentially be armed, it might be prudent to somehow display the 'I intend no harm' sign upfront, and smile might be a good proxy for that? The 'the armed society is a polite society' thing? Living in Europe, where owning guns is not common (and carrying personally very very rare), I don't feel compelled to display or require upfront any bigger signs of 'friendliness' to/from strangers, other than 'Hello/Guten Abend/Adieu'. If the situation becomes unpleasant, I can always leave w/o physical consequences (excl. assault situations). In a gun-loving culture, I'd probably put more effort to lower risk of misunderstandings.

aidenn0 5y ago
I don't think that's the case at all, based on variations in the US. The upper-class parts of LA are known for superficial friendliness, while New York is not, but in neither region is known for its gun culture. Meanwhile parts of the Midwest that had a lot of Germanic immigrants are perceived as being "cold" compared to the southern states, and both tend to have high rates of gun ownership. When I first moved to Southern California, I found the smiles quite off-putting. Living here for over a decade, I'm sure I do the same now.
pjlegato 5y ago
Gun ownership is quite common in many parts of Europe. Finland in particular is nearly the same as the US in terms of percentage of households with firearms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent_of_households_with_guns_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent_of_households_with_gun...
- OJFord 5y ago
  But [0] they are licenced for specific usages, and carry is not allowed outside of that context, and 'personal protection' hasn't been one (barring extant holders) since 1998. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Finland

drran 5y ago

The situation is pretty serious, guys. Enemies are at the West. Enemies are at the East. Enemies are at the South. Enemies are at the North. Enemies are INSIDE our grandiose Russian civilization! Why are you smiling? Are you stupid? Maybe you dislike our grandiose Russian civilization, with grandiose Russian writers, like Pushkin, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Hohol? Maybe you dislike our grandiose and mighty Russian language? Why are you talking in your stupid English language? Are you liking rotting West culture, which pushes their rotten songs in unprotected ears of our youth? ... And so on 24x7 at Russian TV.

Arech 5y ago

It's as accurate as can be accurate any statement about a culture that spans thousands kilometres from East to West and from South to North and contain multitude of subcultures within itself. I.e. it depends, but "yes" is generally closer to the truth than "no"

daxfohl 5y ago

I spent a couple weeks in Krakow and one thing I noticed was how intensely people maintained eye contact when speaking to you. It seemed to be uniquely Polish, as I didn't notice it in Ukraine, Hungary, Germany, etc. Wondering if anyone else has noticed that or if it was just an anomaly.

shashurup 5y ago

I think it has changed a bit since then. There was not a lot to smile about in Russia in 2002. Not that now we smile at each other every time, but we do this more often and even if we don't faces are a lot less grumpy :)

lostwords 5y ago

It's quite accurate in terms of approach, but there are a lot of situations where smiling is more or less appropriate and wouldn't be considered as a rude move. For example, it's completely okay (almost) for service people to be smiling and approachable although it's not obligatory in any way (especially at small stores). At the same time if you are just smiling at strangers without saying any word, it could be perceived as a rudeness. If you smile and give a light nod, most people will think that you somehow know them. So, it's not that Russians are all grumpy and angry all the time, but they (we) need to have an explanation for your smile, you just can't smile without a reason, if that makes sense.