12 ms·
Colorado becomes first state to ban legacy college admissions
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- nazgulnarsil 5y ago>Research has shown — and lawsuits have argued — that the tests, long used to measure aptitude for college, are far more connected to family income and don't provide meaningful information about a student's ability to succeed in college. The linked research shows nothing of the sort.
- throwaway8581 5y agoThe truth requires accepting innate differences in intelligence across races.
- vmception 5y agoOnly in how to format the inputs, not the processing capability.
- mjevans 5y agoI'm far more willing to accept a BIASED TEST than I am someone being more or less smart based on race.
- throwaway8581 5y agoThere are a million ways to try to deny the forbidden conclusion, but none of them has withstood empirical scrutiny. Twin studies, adoption studies, etc. The only hypothesis that fits the data is that different races have different distributions of intelligence. There's no reason this should be surprising. Races differ in height, musculature, bone structure, etc. We know that smart people tend to have smart kids and dumb people tend to have dumb kids. Why would intelligence be exempt from variation across races when no other complex heritable trait is?
- dang 5y agoYou can't do this here. Since this account has been abusing HN by using this site primarily (almost exclusively) for ideological battle, I've banned it. Would you please stop creating accounts to break HN's rules with? https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20primarily%20battle&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- HideousKojima 5y agoYeah but the facts make racially discriminatory admissions policies harder to implement
- handrous 5y agoWhat's linked is an article (another from NPR) quoting a college official as claiming that, which, it's true, isn't research. However, the linked article itself links to the particular piece of research that both articles are referring to, which contains: "Furthermore, our data indicated that high school GPA had a stronger correlation with college success for Non- Submitters than the ACT/SAT (for the 27% of Non-Submitters for whom we had test scores) -- both in terms of college cumulative GPA and graduation rate. While test scores had a generally stronger relationship with college GPAs for the Submitters, for the Non-Submitters they tended to show a weaker relationship, essentially under- predicting the college GPA. The test scores continued to most strongly correlate with family income." So they may be right or may be wrong, and the research may be good or it may be crap, but NPR does not appear to be misrepresenting its own sources.
- fallingknife 5y agoGlobal correlation with college GPA is a completely useless metric because it doesn't control for the fact that higher SAT's get you into harder schools.
- handrous 5y agoAgain, it's entirely possible the linked research is garbage, that's just a different thing from NPR stating something at-odds with what its own source claims.
- 908B64B197 5y ago> Furthermore, our data indicated that high school GPA had a stronger correlation with college success for Non- Submitters than the ACT/SAT (for the 27% of Non-Submitters for whom we had test scores) The problem is, is high school GPA measured the same way across different states and schools? > The test scores continued to most strongly correlate with family income. I have no doubts about this. But I'm pretty sure you would get the same result by looking at family stability and parent's educational achievements.
- handrous 5y ago
- JoeAltmaier 5y agoThey show both correlation with income, and success in college. The correlation with income and test results is quite possibly conflated with preparedness, since money provides more opportunities to succeed in school. Still isn't that the same thing? Folks who didn't have pre-college study opportunities might test less well. It doesn't mean they can't succeed in college. That's the point I think; we have to stop weighing environmental factors so highly, since they skew admissions toward wealthy applicants. Which is widely perceived as unfair.
- lostcolony 5y agoThe linked research does not provide evidence of the latter (i.e., that SAT score does not provide meaningful information about a student's ability to succeed in college), but it DOES provide evidence of the former (that the tests very much measure family income). It is quite possible, of course, and even quite likely, that higher income families will do better in college (since that likely means better education throughout childhood, as well as less likely to need a job or take on debt to attend, so less distraction, and in the event of struggle more ability to hire tutors and things), but the point is that to admit that "we're selecting for rich people" is to say the quiet part out loud; and colleges of course don't want to do that.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- blululu 5y agoI do appreciate that they provided the like to the research (https://text.npr.org/2018/04/26/604875394/study-colleges-that-ditch-the-sat-and-act-can-enhance-diversity https://text.npr.org/2018/04/26/604875394/study-colleges-tha...), though it seems to be pretty unequivocally unrelated to the point they are claiming.
- tschellenbach 5y ago"The governor also signed a bill that removes a requirement that public colleges consider SAT or ACT scores for freshmen, though the new law still allows students to submit test scores if they wish." That doesn't seem equitable at all, it seems to encourage admission based on social status and parent's wealth.
- skrtskrt 5y agoSAT and ACT scores are, on a macro level, a measure of social status and parent's wealth.
- dylan604 5y agoHow's that exactly? I studied in school, took the tests, and received a score. I didn't have SAT tutors. I took the PSAT, and I sort of remember some practice workbooks. How did my receiving decent scores on those tests indicate my social status or parent's wealth?
- skrtskrt 5y ago> on a macro level
- quenix 5y agoThe nature of these tests ensures that they are easy to score highly on through rote practice with a coach. Coaches cost money.
- tooltalk 5y agoThat must by why all those children of Asian immigrants excel on standardized exams, who btw also happen to be the poorest group in places like NYC. Many of them still send their kids to cram schools for coaching, however dire their financial situation, and their kids in turn sacrifice after-school, weekends, and summers vacation toiling with tutors/coaches. This insane unfairness has to end.
- vondur 5y agoI’m going to guess wealthy donors will just look to private Universities now. Should be interesting to see how fund raising works out for them in the future.
- r00fus 5y agoResearch universities rely on many sources of income, not the least of which are government grants and non-donor funding as well as, you know, tuition and fees. It's not like lack of legacy admissions support is cutting them off at the knees.
- dwighttk 5y agoI wonder what it will be like to be an alumni fundraiser at these schools in the near future.
- fotta 5y ago> But no longer in Colorado's public colleges. For public colleges only. I'm actually quite surprised it existed for public institutions in the first place.
- rejectedandsad 5y agoYeah, I don’t think Colorado has that many selective colleges to begin with.
- mikereedell 5y agoColorado School of Mines is fairly selective (11K applicants for 1400 slots). DU (University of Denver) is a bit less selective. Both are private schools.
- denimnerd42 5y agoColorado College is way more selective than either. And maybe the Air Force Academy is the hardest to get in to? Although that's neither state nor private.
- rejectedandsad 5y agoYeah, USAFA is the most selective one but I doubt the governor would have purview over a service academy
- nwiswell 5y agoColorado School of Mines is public.
- rejectedandsad 5y agoMines is public and has a 53% accept rate. That’s hardly selective in the grand scheme of things.
- chris11 5y agoCU Boulder has a good engineering program, and it's much more selective than the university.
- vmception 5y agoWhat are the consequences?
- tryonenow 5y agoLower admissions standards in a misguided attempt to fix a diversity problem which will only erode the caliber of graduates overall, with knockdown effects on greater society over the years as people lose the ability to test for and recognize the competence required for a meritocracy. It's been increasingly happening for decades, as race, gender, and sexual preference are given an outsized role in candidate selection for school and work. Based on the misguided presumption that all groups of people are on average equal in ability, with inequity justified originally by "socioeconomic factors" and more recently through "systemic racism".
- paxys 5y agoIs any remotely "fair" public college admissions system even possible? Race-based quotas are discriminatory. SAT scores are discriminatory. Legacy admissions are discriminatory. Extracurriculars are discriminatory. Judging based on school/school district performance is discriminatory. I say just start picking names out of a hat and be done with it.
- skybrian 5y agoSelecting twice as many candidates as you need and then choosing half of them randomly might actually be a good idea, just so everyone knows that you're there in part because you got lucky. (Also, tracking what happens to each group might result in some interesting data.)
- paxys 5y agoWe can call it the Thanos system.
- ianhawes 5y agoI think a low baseline admissions standard should be required and then any applicants that meet that are selected via lottery.
- nextweek2 5y agoMy first thought was that teaches me to do the bear minimum and then sit back. That doesn't make me feel comfortable. Luck is a factor in life but we want people to work to give them the best chances. Perhaps a lottery where each positive attribute gives a greater chance of winning.
- tolbish 5y agoParents' income?
- delaynomore 5y agoYes, the system that gives my kid the best shot of getting admitted. /s Rich families want legacy admissions. Asian prefer grades and tests because they generally excel in those areas. Under-represented groups want to do away with both because neither legacy or tests benefits them.
- koolba 5y agoAre legacy admissions at public colleges a common thing? This is the first I've ever heard about the concept as I, perhaps naively on my part, assumed they operated formulaically as faceless bureaucracies. Input the usual suspects of grades and SAT scores, perhaps fudge it a bit with income and race, and pop out a score to sort the applicants.
- ericwood 5y agoAbsolutely. I went to Texas A&M and they take a lot of pride in the legacy aspects. The application even had a spot to enter that information.
- MattGaiser 5y ago>Research has shown — and lawsuits have argued — that the tests, long used to measure aptitude for college, are far more connected to family income and don't provide meaningful information about a student's ability to succeed in college. Has anyone looked at whether family income is a good indicator of whether students get through college? I would bet it is.
- Glavnokoman 5y agoThat would be highly politically incorrect research. Meaning there would not be any. Which allows for formally correct statements like "there is no research indicating..." and your bet is categorized as unscientific.
- paxys 5y agoConsidering how it's quite literally impossible to get through college today without external financial support anyways, I would be pretty surprised if there wasn't a correlation.
- Cd00d 5y agoYes. https://www.the74million.org/article/alarming-statistics-tell-the-story-behind-americas-college-completion-crisis-nearly-a-third-of-all-college-student-still-dont-have-a-degree-six-years-later/ https://www.the74million.org/article/alarming-statistics-tel... I used Google for that. search term: income and college graduation rates
- Animats 5y agoThat will put a stop to parents getting their unqualified kids into the Colorado School of Mines.
- bjt2n3904 5y agoYow, the real core of the article is about the SAT/ACT. I'm glad that they're ditching them, because of how much I hate the College Board, and those exams. But as a matter of principle, college admissions must be on merit. It's easy to say it shouldn't be based on family ties... But what will replace exam scores? I don't like this discussion on "equity", because it seems that the inevitable conclusion is that race will become a metric in deciding college admission.
- TheAdamAndChe 5y agoRace is already a metric in deciding college admission. Asian Americans need significantly higher GPAs to get into pretty much any competitive program.
- silicon2401 5y ago> I don't like this discussion on "equity", because it seems that the inevitable conclusion is that race will become a metric in deciding college admission. This is exactly what some people want. Instead of a meritocracy and an individualist society where we judge each person by their individual merits, we're trending toward a society where we only see and treat a person by the categories they fall into.
- sawyer 5y agoThe Meritocracy Trap by Daniel Markovits is a great book on this topic. It makes a great argument that, unfortunately, merit based admission to elite universities does nothing to increase equality of opportunity because the rich are so much better at training and educating their children. The upside is that people are forced to earn their privilege with hard work and study, rather than having it handed to them at birth. The downside is that there’s no light at the end of the tunnel, privilege begets more work, which begets more material wealth, which begets yet harder work / overachieving children.
- fallingknife 5y agoThe work trap is real. But suggesting that the top schools shouldn't take the smartest students is like saying the NFL shouldn't take the best football players.
- newsclues 5y agoIt seems like rather than do the hard work of making meritocratic admissions function as best as possible, we are doing away with merit completely.
- threatofrain 5y agoNow we will focus on life story. I'm not sure if that's more equitable or accessible.
- nscalf 5y agoIs there any alternative available? While rich parents can train/educate their children better than non-rich parents can, I don't really see much of an issue there. It's not entirely equal, but I don't see it as much of a problem since judgement is passed by merit. I guess you could admit people, in part, by IQ tests? But that only captures one part of the picture.
- MyHypatia 5y agoGood. Although this law doesn't cover private universities, in my opinion universities that practice legacy admissions should not be eligible to receive federal funding. If universities get tax payer money, they shouldn't then get to give away spots to wealthy people. I'm sure Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and all the schools that practice legacy admissions would hate it. I think they will manage to adjust.
- aejnsn 5y agoAhh yes. The old “we removed the checkbox” to make people feel better.
- Voline 5y agoLegacy admissions: also known as affirmative action for rich white people.
- silicon2401 5y agoYou joke but white people are underrepresented in fields like eduation and software, where Asians are overrepresented by 6x
- xyzzy_plugh 5y agoThe comments here are strange to me, as a non-American. "Without SATs the rich will just pay their way in!!" Are there not other ways of evaluating a students aptitude? Like... their grades? In my country, we do not have standardized testing. We have world renowned universities. Students are evaluated by their grades, often an application essay, and possibly any extracurricular or volunteer work (but I know of no anecdotal evidence of this making any difference). Here, wealthy students usually pay full tuition (usually under 10k USD a semester) and the less fortunate get heavy subsidies. My partner's parents had low income, and combined with bursaries and grants, she paid next to nothing.
- curiousllama 5y agoCurriculum difficulty varies WIDELY among US High Schools - not just public/private, but based on state, locality, etc. It's heterogenous to the point that A-quality work in one school might get you a C in a school 20 miles away. The traditional solution has been standardized tests (SAT, ACT, AP, IB are all fairly common nationally, PLUS most states have their own tests by subject). The qualms people have is that, short of these tests, universities are forced to make subjective judgements about high school quality, extracurriculars, etc that are often skewed rich.
- lr4444lr 5y agoYour perspective assumes we have universal access to schools of at least comparably good quality giving a proper education without any grade inflation, bogus credits to make graduation rates look higher, and uniform standards for teachers and students. This is not remotely the case in the USA. At some point, we have to start using a common yardstick to compare apples to apples that had at least the rudiments of an unbiased statistical sampling. The SAT does a decent job.
- renewiltord 5y agoWell, there's an easy answer. Suppose a school student from Dhaka, Bangladesh wants to go to university in your country. She has her high-school grades and the application essay. How do you determine if she gets in? That is the Ozarks vs. Berkeley.
- dukeofdoom 5y agoThis is just creating a more unjust system, under the guise of fighting oppression. A metric based on individual effort and merit, can be done away with for political reasons, and rewarding ideological affiliation. Under communism, it was notorious that those that were connected to the party had preferred access to university even with terrible grades. Who wants to go to a doctor that got a degree because Daddy's ideological loyalty.
- cafard 5y agoMy impression was that the Colorado public universities weren't that competitive. Now, that impression was formed almost fifty years ago, so it could well be wrong. But I wonder whether Governor Polis isn't addressing a non-existent problem.
- zulu314 5y agoHere in France, elite STEM schools run a series of highly competitive exams that consist of a series of written tests and oral interviews over several weeks. These are brutal, students basically prepare for them for 2 to 3 years and there is no alternate way to trick your way in. Not if you're a billionaire. The system is far from perfect: only a teeny tiny fraction of students who make it are from poor/underprivileged backgrounds (some do). Yes it is infinitely easier to prepare for these exams in a middle class family than in a ghetto. Yet it still seems an order of magnitude MORE FAIR then checking whether daddy is a big donor to the school. Or having SATs that are so ridiculously easy that we're gonna have to fallback on whether you were a member of the theater club.
- JoeAltmaier 5y agoI think that's half of the system that Colorado is opposing? Test scores (not so easy) reflect income more than aptitude. Not just the 'legacy' checkbox.
- zulu314 5y agoHard test scores reflect some sort of aptitude at least. The fact that higher income students get them is a second order effect with many many causes that need to be addressed separately. Legacy checkbox reflects absolutely nothing other then nepotism.
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago...and this Colorado bill is addressing it head-on, by diminishing test scores in admissions decisions.
- threatofrain 5y agoBut they're dealing with the problem at the stage of the pipeline which they can address, which is a bit late as inequity begins to solidify long before. Some children will have AP credits and some wont. Some children will have completed calculus and others won't have started. By this time, years of advantage and disadvantage have already accumulated. These differences in student profile will interest both in-state and out-of-state colleges. zulu314 is pointing out that tests can be meaningfully designed for predictive value, and I would additionally wonder whether universities all around the world will follow suit by diminishing test importance?
- motohagiography 5y agoArguably many of those legacy students provide more upward mobility to their peers via culture and opportunity than the middle management jobs those peers will graduate into. Let's say for a moment efforts like this manage to succeed at removing all cultural advantages, on what basis should students and people in general compete, and on what principles should communities organize themselves? It's as though nobody has asked what qualities policies like this optimize for. Equality is what you have when you remove distinguishing qualities, so that's not really the thing. Justice presumes a crime, which kids have not committed. To me it seems like a cynical gesture aimed at destroying wealth instead of creating opportunity.
- angryasian 5y agoall public schools need to offer more transparency in their admissions.
- spacefiish 5y agoI can't exactly speak to legacy admissions, but I went to the same public US university as my dad, and because of that I got my out-of-state tuition fee ($8000 a semester) waived entirely. Even though we are solidly middle-class financially, because my dad couldn't find steady work after the 2008 recession, we kids were on our own for college (that is, I paid/am paying all my own bills & student loans). This waiver is what made his alma mater an option for me financially, and while I certainly could have gone somewhere cheaper & closer to home to make it easier on my checkbook, I don't regret my choice at all and I'm happy I get to share that connection with my dad (and now also my sister!). It was an awesome place to be, and being so far from home all the time means I learned some really important lessons, so I definitely don't take it for granted. I think it's also worth mentioning that we both exceeded the minimum requirement for automatic admission, so the fact that we were legacy students didn't really mean anything in that regard, but now I wonder what it would have been like if we didn't meet that criteria - knowing this university, sadly it is almost definitely something that influences their decision, despite their large size. I don't know that I want them to do away with legacy benefits entirely, as by proxy it's a huge reason for who I am now, but I am 100% behind the idea to do away with using them in admissions settings, I really don't think that's fair. Truthfully, me still getting hefty kickback from it isn't really all too fair, and while getting residency in this state is not difficult, that's not the same either. It's tough to balance my appreciation for what the program does enable, and my distaste for the way it excludes many equally if not more deserving people.