7 ms·

Nice that something more than strongly worded letters was done.

by matkoniecz 5y ago

liaukovv 5y ago
I'm not sure how much more it is
- matkoniecz 5y ago
  For start, it has some real - though minimal - impact, unlike typical strongly worded letters.
  - liaukovv 5y ago
    I'm not entirely sure belavia is even profitable in the first place
    - matkoniecz 5y ago
      Hopefully now it will deteriorate even more.
      - Symbiote 5y ago
        They just lost roughly ⅓ of their destinations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Belavia_destinations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Belavia_destinations
    - ajuc 5y ago
      The only things in Belarus that are profitable are IT companies. Which BTW brings up a question of big international corporations outsourcing to authoritarian countries. Should they be punished financially for being complicit in breaking human rights?
      - liaukovv 5y ago
        The only way for bourgeoisie revolution to occur is to have bourgeoisie. A dictator would be perfectly happy flogging peasants until the end of time, see north korea for reference.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - dmos62 5y ago
    I'd say banning Belorusian airlines after Belorus hijacked a plane (and kidnapped passengers) is like having your kid kidnapped and proclaiming that the kidnapper isn't welcome in your house. Edit: s/Belorussian/Belorusian
    - newsbinator 5y ago
      Friendly sidenote: people from the country of "Belarus" call themselves "Belarusians" (pronounced like "bela-roo-sians", not like "bela-russians" / "belo-russians").
    - matkoniecz 5y ago
      Still, better that welcoming kidnapper and his family for the birthday of younger sister. And I expected such behavior, so I am pleasantly surprised.
      - andrepd 5y ago
        Just shows how we have very low standards.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - tpm 5y ago
      Not really, because here the hijacker is not one-dimensional, the EU still has options to meaningufully retaliate. Really meaningful retaliation however would also hit Russia as this thing was orchestrated by them, by for example finally stopping Nordstream.
    - toyg 5y ago
      They also sanctioned involved individuals. It's more like a family kidnaps their own kid while he was at your birthday party, and as response you get a restraining order and freeze some of their bank accounts.
      - jopsen 5y ago
planetis 5y ago
You mean the European hypocrisy when they call out "state piracy"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident
- mam3 5y ago
  It's not and it was never about fairness. It's about strength.
- matkoniecz 5y ago
  1) I am not supporting also this one, especially as it was a sad case of vassalisation 2) Refusing to allow use of airspace is different from hijacking plane and abducting people. If someone is using "state piracy" only for the second one it is entirely defensible. EDIT: 3) at least in this case I can say that my country (Poland) was not complicit, though probably mostly because they were not asked by USA to do so. 4) Plane was not forced to land, but landed due to technical malfunction > pilots requested emergency landing due to issues with fuel level indicators and thus inability to confirm sufficient amount of fuel to continue flight Though problem was triggered by France, Italy, Spain and Portugal refused to allow transit.
  - planetis 5y ago
    > 1) I am not supporting also this one, especially as it was a sad case of vassalisation Don't get me wrong I agree. > 2) Refusing to allow use of airspace is different from hijacking plane and abducting people. If someone is using "state piracy" only for the second one it is entirely defensible. Not much different the plane was forced to land in Austria. Also this was a diplomatic mission, unlike commercial flights they had absolutely NO jurisdiction to act like this.
    - matkoniecz 5y ago
      Plane was not forced to land, but landed due to technical malfunction > pilots requested emergency landing due to issues with fuel level indicators and thus inability to confirm sufficient amount of fuel to continue flight Though problem was triggered by France, Italy, Spain and Portugal refused to allow transit. There is difference between hijacking plane using fighter jet and refusal to allow transit. Both with blatant lies as a pretext.
publicola1990 5y ago
They hardly have any airlines in Belarus, may be only one Belavia may be of any significant size.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  Flying over Belarus might be a good income for the country - no longer. An interesting shift of the last decade or so of sanction wars is that sanctions must be targeted against the regime, not the people. Otherwise it's a bit of an own goal - you give the regime a bogeyman to point at. As such, this seems like a good, pragmatic type of sanction. Few regular Belarusians will feel the impact, but it does strike at the regime, even if it seems like small change.
  - pydry 5y ago
    I'm not sure if Belarussians having to cancel their holidays to the West and going to Crimea instead is going to have the desired effect of driving sympathies among Belarussians toward the west. Moreover the people who actually like Lukashenko will probably be pretty indifferent to this. They weren't planning on flying to Berlin any time soon. I'm almost certain Putin will jump on the chance to have alternate routes to Russian tourist destinations opened up (possibly even subsidized, like he did for flights to Crimea). I'm starting to wonder if Lukashenko/Putin wasn't counting on this kind of knee jerk reaction. If sanctions were on the cards anyway, with this stunt they got to pick the timing, reason and type. Edit : not a popular analysis, it seems...
    - rightbyte 5y ago
      Ye you don't want to isolate dictatures. That prevents change. Just fly around the country from now on and don't punnish the people ...
    - mopsi 5y ago
      The desired effect is to increase pressure on Lukashenko and I'm sure every holidaymaker with a ruined trip knows very well whose stupid stunt is to blame for it.
5tefan 5y ago
On the contrary. Our political elites are unable to find political and diplomatic answers. Resorting to bans and sanctions is weak. Inability and unwillingnes to talk to each other will make the people suffer. The ultimate suffering is civil unrest and war. The big picture to me is a very dark one: The world is preparing for war. This is just another side note to heigthen tensions.
- rob74 5y ago
  There is an appropriate answer for every act. In this case, if Belarus forces an airliner flying over their territory to divert to Minsk with a made-up bomb threat, and even sends a fighter jet to make sure that the pilots get the message, the appropriate answer is bans and sanctions - anything less than that would be seen as weak.
- mopsi 5y ago
  > Resorting to bans and sanctions is weak. No, endless talk with no action is weak and pathetic. Mafia states will shit on you if you show unwillingness to stand for yourself. Biden lifted sanctions on Nord Stream and three days later you have this stunt. Let that be a lesson. Every incoming president has had such trial by fire.
  - 5tefan 5y ago
    They call for blood. You call for blood. This won't lead to less blood. As I stated in my comment and as you casually confirmed. I don't want blood at all.
    - mopsi 5y ago
      > They call for blood. You call for blood. This won't lead to less blood. Yes it will, because Belarus nor Russia are in a position for any serious confrontation. As soon as you call their bluff, they will retreat, as they have done many times before. Their power comes from YOUR FEAR and unwillingness to react appropriately to their provocations. Both Rusia and Belarus are mafia states that serve as piggy banks to oligarchs, who belong to the global elite. When their status, access and financial wellbeing takes a hit from sanctions, oligarchs will tell their public-facing puppets to tone down and seek better relations. Oligarhs are not hermits like Kim from the Best Korea or leaders of Middle Eastern theocracies. Their families live in the west, because Russia is a dangerous shithole; they own luxury apartments in NYC and houses in the best parts of London. They spend their holidays in Los Angeles, Southern France and elsewhere. Their kids and wives want to live like the rich people they see on Instagram and in Hollywood movies. They are not willing to give this westernized life up, and that's the string to pull them by: identify key power brokers and their inner circles and target them mercilessly.
PeterisP 5y ago
It is still largely symbolic - in last few months Lukashenka has implemented various travel restrictions with the west (both for political reasons and also to limit emigration/brain-drain as e.g. various IT companies were relocating Belarus employees to Poland/Lithuania/etc) and there was a feeling that he might have restricted flights or the ability to fly anyway - so now the same result gets achieved not by the prohibitions of the regime but can be blamed on the "evil neighbours". It's perhaps somewhat similar to sanctions against Russia which were followed by Russia-imposed sanctions on importing e.g. cheese, which has the benefit of improving trade balance (as people aren't consuming imported products) and any discontent of the people is blamed on the western sanctions; the regime wants to ban certain things but it has less impact on people's satisfaction if the ban can be blamed on everyone else.
EugeneOZ 5y ago
Yeah, Belavia already considering mass layoffs. If somebody is happy that workers of Belavia will be punished instead of Lukashenko - maybe they need to think more.

Nice that something more than strongly worded letters was done.

liaukovv 5y ago

I'm not sure how much more it is

matkoniecz 5y ago
For start, it has some real - though minimal - impact, unlike typical strongly worded letters.
- liaukovv 5y ago
  I'm not entirely sure belavia is even profitable in the first place
  - matkoniecz 5y ago
    Hopefully now it will deteriorate even more.
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      They just lost roughly ⅓ of their destinations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Belavia_destinations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Belavia_destinations
  - ajuc 5y ago
    The only things in Belarus that are profitable are IT companies. Which BTW brings up a question of big international corporations outsourcing to authoritarian countries. Should they be punished financially for being complicit in breaking human rights?
    - liaukovv 5y ago
      The only way for bourgeoisie revolution to occur is to have bourgeoisie. A dictator would be perfectly happy flogging peasants until the end of time, see north korea for reference.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- dmos62 5y ago
  I'd say banning Belorusian airlines after Belorus hijacked a plane (and kidnapped passengers) is like having your kid kidnapped and proclaiming that the kidnapper isn't welcome in your house. Edit: s/Belorussian/Belorusian
  - newsbinator 5y ago
    Friendly sidenote: people from the country of "Belarus" call themselves "Belarusians" (pronounced like "bela-roo-sians", not like "bela-russians" / "belo-russians").
  - matkoniecz 5y ago
    Still, better that welcoming kidnapper and his family for the birthday of younger sister. And I expected such behavior, so I am pleasantly surprised.
    - andrepd 5y ago
      Just shows how we have very low standards.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - tpm 5y ago
    Not really, because here the hijacker is not one-dimensional, the EU still has options to meaningufully retaliate. Really meaningful retaliation however would also hit Russia as this thing was orchestrated by them, by for example finally stopping Nordstream.
  - toyg 5y ago
    They also sanctioned involved individuals. It's more like a family kidnaps their own kid while he was at your birthday party, and as response you get a restraining order and freeze some of their bank accounts.
    - jopsen 5y ago

planetis 5y ago

You mean the European hypocrisy when they call out "state piracy"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident

mam3 5y ago
It's not and it was never about fairness. It's about strength.
matkoniecz 5y ago
1) I am not supporting also this one, especially as it was a sad case of vassalisation 2) Refusing to allow use of airspace is different from hijacking plane and abducting people. If someone is using "state piracy" only for the second one it is entirely defensible. EDIT: 3) at least in this case I can say that my country (Poland) was not complicit, though probably mostly because they were not asked by USA to do so. 4) Plane was not forced to land, but landed due to technical malfunction > pilots requested emergency landing due to issues with fuel level indicators and thus inability to confirm sufficient amount of fuel to continue flight Though problem was triggered by France, Italy, Spain and Portugal refused to allow transit.
- planetis 5y ago
  > 1) I am not supporting also this one, especially as it was a sad case of vassalisation Don't get me wrong I agree. > 2) Refusing to allow use of airspace is different from hijacking plane and abducting people. If someone is using "state piracy" only for the second one it is entirely defensible. Not much different the plane was forced to land in Austria. Also this was a diplomatic mission, unlike commercial flights they had absolutely NO jurisdiction to act like this.
  - matkoniecz 5y ago
    Plane was not forced to land, but landed due to technical malfunction > pilots requested emergency landing due to issues with fuel level indicators and thus inability to confirm sufficient amount of fuel to continue flight Though problem was triggered by France, Italy, Spain and Portugal refused to allow transit. There is difference between hijacking plane using fighter jet and refusal to allow transit. Both with blatant lies as a pretext.

publicola1990 5y ago

They hardly have any airlines in Belarus, may be only one Belavia may be of any significant size.

rich_sasha 5y ago
Flying over Belarus might be a good income for the country - no longer. An interesting shift of the last decade or so of sanction wars is that sanctions must be targeted against the regime, not the people. Otherwise it's a bit of an own goal - you give the regime a bogeyman to point at. As such, this seems like a good, pragmatic type of sanction. Few regular Belarusians will feel the impact, but it does strike at the regime, even if it seems like small change.
- pydry 5y ago
  I'm not sure if Belarussians having to cancel their holidays to the West and going to Crimea instead is going to have the desired effect of driving sympathies among Belarussians toward the west. Moreover the people who actually like Lukashenko will probably be pretty indifferent to this. They weren't planning on flying to Berlin any time soon. I'm almost certain Putin will jump on the chance to have alternate routes to Russian tourist destinations opened up (possibly even subsidized, like he did for flights to Crimea). I'm starting to wonder if Lukashenko/Putin wasn't counting on this kind of knee jerk reaction. If sanctions were on the cards anyway, with this stunt they got to pick the timing, reason and type. Edit : not a popular analysis, it seems...
  - rightbyte 5y ago
    Ye you don't want to isolate dictatures. That prevents change. Just fly around the country from now on and don't punnish the people ...
  - mopsi 5y ago
    The desired effect is to increase pressure on Lukashenko and I'm sure every holidaymaker with a ruined trip knows very well whose stupid stunt is to blame for it.

5tefan 5y ago

On the contrary. Our political elites are unable to find political and diplomatic answers. Resorting to bans and sanctions is weak. Inability and unwillingnes to talk to each other will make the people suffer. The ultimate suffering is civil unrest and war. The big picture to me is a very dark one: The world is preparing for war. This is just another side note to heigthen tensions.

rob74 5y ago
There is an appropriate answer for every act. In this case, if Belarus forces an airliner flying over their territory to divert to Minsk with a made-up bomb threat, and even sends a fighter jet to make sure that the pilots get the message, the appropriate answer is bans and sanctions - anything less than that would be seen as weak.
mopsi 5y ago
> Resorting to bans and sanctions is weak. No, endless talk with no action is weak and pathetic. Mafia states will shit on you if you show unwillingness to stand for yourself. Biden lifted sanctions on Nord Stream and three days later you have this stunt. Let that be a lesson. Every incoming president has had such trial by fire.
- 5tefan 5y ago
  They call for blood. You call for blood. This won't lead to less blood. As I stated in my comment and as you casually confirmed. I don't want blood at all.
  - mopsi 5y ago
    > They call for blood. You call for blood. This won't lead to less blood. Yes it will, because Belarus nor Russia are in a position for any serious confrontation. As soon as you call their bluff, they will retreat, as they have done many times before. Their power comes from YOUR FEAR and unwillingness to react appropriately to their provocations. Both Rusia and Belarus are mafia states that serve as piggy banks to oligarchs, who belong to the global elite. When their status, access and financial wellbeing takes a hit from sanctions, oligarchs will tell their public-facing puppets to tone down and seek better relations. Oligarhs are not hermits like Kim from the Best Korea or leaders of Middle Eastern theocracies. Their families live in the west, because Russia is a dangerous shithole; they own luxury apartments in NYC and houses in the best parts of London. They spend their holidays in Los Angeles, Southern France and elsewhere. Their kids and wives want to live like the rich people they see on Instagram and in Hollywood movies. They are not willing to give this westernized life up, and that's the string to pull them by: identify key power brokers and their inner circles and target them mercilessly.

PeterisP 5y ago

It is still largely symbolic - in last few months Lukashenka has implemented various travel restrictions with the west (both for political reasons and also to limit emigration/brain-drain as e.g. various IT companies were relocating Belarus employees to Poland/Lithuania/etc) and there was a feeling that he might have restricted flights or the ability to fly anyway - so now the same result gets achieved not by the prohibitions of the regime but can be blamed on the "evil neighbours". It's perhaps somewhat similar to sanctions against Russia which were followed by Russia-imposed sanctions on importing e.g. cheese, which has the benefit of improving trade balance (as people aren't consuming imported products) and any discontent of the people is blamed on the western sanctions; the regime wants to ban certain things but it has less impact on people's satisfaction if the ban can be blamed on everyone else.

EugeneOZ 5y ago

Yeah, Belavia already considering mass layoffs. If somebody is happy that workers of Belavia will be punished instead of Lukashenko - maybe they need to think more.