4 ms·

Silly comparison. Crypto holds value for its utility. Why do you seem to think that its utility will just vanish?

lottin 5y ago
Because the only utility it has is that it appreciates over time. Of course, until it no longer does, then becomes worthless.
- phist_mcgee 5y ago
  And that I can send money worldwide to anyone at any time with no middleman.
  - lanstin 5y ago
    D5CF5A343CEE5CF02556B7790D24C950495E04B9 Really a reply to the sibling.
  - nikanj 5y ago
    No, you can send arbitrary hashes to anyone at any time. It's just a mutual agreement that those hashes are worth anything at all.
    - phist_mcgee 5y ago
      And so is our physical money a shared belief that those pieces of plastic are worth something as well. Really though man, this argument has been hashed out in so many places on the internet innumerable times. Stop the downvoting and let's agree to disagree.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    This mostly matters for avoiding capital controls. Those shouldn't exist in the first place.
camgunz 5y ago
Cryptocurrencies do have a couple of extra utilities: - they can be pumped and dumped without state oversight - with the use of a tumbler, you can launder money pretty effectively (in fact we should stop calling them tumblers and start calling them money launderers, that's exactly what they are) It's pretty obvious that this is bad for society. In addition, the transactions are extremely slow and wildly expensive--even without factoring in externalities like carbon burn. The price is extremely volatile. It's highly unavailable (ex: good luck getting your money if Coinbase goes down). The governing structures don't inspire confidence (look at ETH's PoW -> PoS, or BTC's block size debate). Things don't have value simply because people decide they have value. This is a weird kind of tautology or circular reasoning based on a deep misunderstanding of markets. It's clearer to say that people price things based on a perception of value. Crypto seems like it does--a lot of people go around saying so--but unless you're a comic book villain, it doesn't. However, things like gold or oil do! You can make electrical contacts out of gold. You can refine oil into fuel. Commodities have physical utility. BTC doesn't. State-backed currencies also do! You can get pretty much anything for USD. You can get a great pint for GBP. This is because the states and entities producing those goods price them in currencies they can get other goods for, reliably. You can't reliably use BTC to get other goods, and you can't reliably say your BTC will hold the same value even minute to minute. Further, it's very likely your transaction fees will be more than the purchases you make.
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  Sounds so great, what can I get for my rapidly depreciating Turkish Lira nobody wants to take? BTC seems a lot more accessible than the great and amazing US or EU banks, who have nearly failed and had to be bailed out barely a decade ago. Doesn't inspire confidence, tbh.
  - camgunz 5y ago
    I think it'd be more productive if you engaged with the substance of what I wrote, rather than engaging in whataboutism with USD/Euro/etc. I'll try and do that here with what you wrote. > What can I get for my rapidly depreciating Turkish Lira nobody wants to take? A couple of things about this: - You can get Dollars/Euros/GBP/RMB. - Crypto cannot solve the "so you're born in an oppressive or poorly-run state" problem. You've gotta trade the currency you have for crypto, and if that currency isn't good, crypto doesn't help you at all. - There's really no examples of crypto helping people in oppressive or poorly-run states (Venezuela still has horrendous problems, for example). - The transaction fees are bad enough in USD, but valued in (say) Bolivars they're prohibitive. - In particular, Bitcoin is super bad for the planet, and people in oppressive or poorly run states are disproportionately susceptible to ecological disasters and climate change. > BTC seems a lot more accessible than the great and amazing US or EU banks, who have nearly failed and had to be bailed out barely a decade ago. Doesn't inspire confidence, tbh. I think you don't mean "accessible", but rather you're saying because banks need bailouts that fiat currency is unworkable? My counterpoint here is mostly what I wrote in my previous post; fiat is superior to crypto in every way, unless you're a criminal. Furthermore, cryptocurrency systems are vulnerable to a whole class of problems central banking isn't, i.e. someone lost the keys, Sybil attacks, developers making changes that destroy your stake/economy. There is no recourse for this. Are heads of state supposed to join a Discord channel or w/e and lobby crypto devs?
imtringued 5y ago
>Crypto holds value for its utility. You mean ETH and the ability to bypass capital controls? Sure, I'll accept that these things exist but that doesn't mean I can accept needless power consumption. Bitcoin bubbles don't meaningfully contribute to avoiding capital controls.

Because the only utility it has is that it appreciates over time. Of course, until it no longer does, then becomes worthless.

phist_mcgee 5y ago
And that I can send money worldwide to anyone at any time with no middleman.
- lanstin 5y ago
  D5CF5A343CEE5CF02556B7790D24C950495E04B9 Really a reply to the sibling.
- nikanj 5y ago
  No, you can send arbitrary hashes to anyone at any time. It's just a mutual agreement that those hashes are worth anything at all.
  - phist_mcgee 5y ago
    And so is our physical money a shared belief that those pieces of plastic are worth something as well. Really though man, this argument has been hashed out in so many places on the internet innumerable times. Stop the downvoting and let's agree to disagree.
- imtringued 5y ago
  This mostly matters for avoiding capital controls. Those shouldn't exist in the first place.

camgunz 5y ago

Cryptocurrencies do have a couple of extra utilities: - they can be pumped and dumped without state oversight - with the use of a tumbler, you can launder money pretty effectively (in fact we should stop calling them tumblers and start calling them money launderers, that's exactly what they are) It's pretty obvious that this is bad for society. In addition, the transactions are extremely slow and wildly expensive--even without factoring in externalities like carbon burn. The price is extremely volatile. It's highly unavailable (ex: good luck getting your money if Coinbase goes down). The governing structures don't inspire confidence (look at ETH's PoW -> PoS, or BTC's block size debate). Things don't have value simply because people decide they have value. This is a weird kind of tautology or circular reasoning based on a deep misunderstanding of markets. It's clearer to say that people price things based on a perception of value. Crypto seems like it does--a lot of people go around saying so--but unless you're a comic book villain, it doesn't. However, things like gold or oil do! You can make electrical contacts out of gold. You can refine oil into fuel. Commodities have physical utility. BTC doesn't. State-backed currencies also do! You can get pretty much anything for USD. You can get a great pint for GBP. This is because the states and entities producing those goods price them in currencies they can get other goods for, reliably. You can't reliably use BTC to get other goods, and you can't reliably say your BTC will hold the same value even minute to minute. Further, it's very likely your transaction fees will be more than the purchases you make.

inter_netuser 5y ago
Sounds so great, what can I get for my rapidly depreciating Turkish Lira nobody wants to take? BTC seems a lot more accessible than the great and amazing US or EU banks, who have nearly failed and had to be bailed out barely a decade ago. Doesn't inspire confidence, tbh.
- camgunz 5y ago
  I think it'd be more productive if you engaged with the substance of what I wrote, rather than engaging in whataboutism with USD/Euro/etc. I'll try and do that here with what you wrote. > What can I get for my rapidly depreciating Turkish Lira nobody wants to take? A couple of things about this: - You can get Dollars/Euros/GBP/RMB. - Crypto cannot solve the "so you're born in an oppressive or poorly-run state" problem. You've gotta trade the currency you have for crypto, and if that currency isn't good, crypto doesn't help you at all. - There's really no examples of crypto helping people in oppressive or poorly-run states (Venezuela still has horrendous problems, for example). - The transaction fees are bad enough in USD, but valued in (say) Bolivars they're prohibitive. - In particular, Bitcoin is super bad for the planet, and people in oppressive or poorly run states are disproportionately susceptible to ecological disasters and climate change. > BTC seems a lot more accessible than the great and amazing US or EU banks, who have nearly failed and had to be bailed out barely a decade ago. Doesn't inspire confidence, tbh. I think you don't mean "accessible", but rather you're saying because banks need bailouts that fiat currency is unworkable? My counterpoint here is mostly what I wrote in my previous post; fiat is superior to crypto in every way, unless you're a criminal. Furthermore, cryptocurrency systems are vulnerable to a whole class of problems central banking isn't, i.e. someone lost the keys, Sybil attacks, developers making changes that destroy your stake/economy. There is no recourse for this. Are heads of state supposed to join a Discord channel or w/e and lobby crypto devs?

imtringued 5y ago

>Crypto holds value for its utility. You mean ETH and the ability to bypass capital controls? Sure, I'll accept that these things exist but that doesn't mean I can accept needless power consumption. Bitcoin bubbles don't meaningfully contribute to avoiding capital controls.