7 ms·

Junk – Mark Bittman’s History of Why We Eat Bad Food

48 points by andrewl 5y ago

reedjosh 5y ago
Regenerative ag with animals and produce on one farm seems to me to be the healthiest and most sustainable path forward. Mono anything is terrible for consumption and production externalities. Wheat and other grains that require fortification with vitamins and minerals just to not kill the consumer are terrible and shouldn't be eaten by anyone. Also saturated and animal fats are good for you. Chemically expressed vegetable trans-fats are not. https://thebigfatsurprise.com/ https://thebigfatsurprise.com/ https://drcate.com/deep-nutrition-why-your-genes-need-traditional-food/ https://drcate.com/deep-nutrition-why-your-genes-need-tradit...
- i_am_proteus 5y ago
  Wheat does not require "fortification with vitamins and minerals just to not kill the consumer." Wheat is a viable staple, up until recently a luxury staple, that forms the basis for a healthy diet when eaten alongside a modest amount of vegetables. For those with gluten intolerances, and also for those without, rice accomplishes the same.
  - browningstreet 5y ago
    Given the percentage of wheat that makes up the diets of certain demographics in the US, and the lack of vegetables that go along with it, micronutrient deficient diets are predominant and fortification has been seen as a public health necessity. For those who eat healthy, calorie appropriate, nutrient dense diets... fortification isn't necessary, but that doesn't seem to be the public health version of the world many people operate in.
    - i_am_proteus 5y ago
      This does not mean that wheat "should not be eaten."
      - reedjosh 5y ago
        Wheat should be seen as in the same category as sugar and alcohol--not a part of a healthy diet. It does not provide a needed nutrient. Carbohydrates in this form are terrible for blood sugar and don't provide any nutrients on their own.
        i_am_proteus 5y ago
        You appear to be conflating "wheat" with "carbohydrates." Wheat contains many necessary nutrients, including, importantly, protein. This article about staple crops provides additional details: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staple_food https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staple_food
        reedjosh 5y ago
        In its truly whole form it provides: Total Fat2.24g3% Saturated Fat0.386g2% Trans Fat- Polyunsaturated Fat0.935g Monounsaturated Fat0.278g Cholesterol0mg0% Sodium6mg0% Total Carbohydrate87.08g32% Dietary Fiber14.6g52% Sugars0.49g Protein16.44g Calcium41mg3% Iron4.66mg26% Potassium486mg10% Which isn't actually that bad, but when you consider the glycemic index is near sugar, and if you ate a diet in the proportions of carbs/fat/protein that this food has, you would have the recommended us low fat diet that has only increased obesity over the last fifty years. https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/generic/flour-whole-wheat https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/generic/flour-w... https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/glycemic-index-and-glycemic-load-for-100-foods https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/glyce... On top of this most people consume wheat as bread--a highly refined version that is likely to have less fiber, protein, fat, and micronutrients. The protein in wheat is not complete either. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1671292708600668 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S16712... Now consider an egg: Calories 74 % Daily Values* Total Fat4.97g6% Saturated Fat1.55g8% Trans Fat- Polyunsaturated Fat0.682g Monounsaturated Fat1.905g Cholesterol212mg71% Sodium70mg3% Total Carbohydrate0.38g0% Dietary Fiber0g0% Sugars0.38g Protein6.29g Calcium26mg2% Iron0.92mg5% Potassium67mg1% Vitamin A70mcg8% All that in 74 calories, and a complete protein.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- gruez 5y ago
  > Regenerative ag with animals and produce on one farm seems to me to be the healthiest and most sustainable path forward. What's the evidence for that being healthier? Moreover, what's the health improvement relative to the cost? SV engineers might be willing to pay 3x more for something that's 5% healthier, but not a single parent household making minimum wage. >Also saturated and animal fats are good for you. Chemically expressed vegetable trans-fats are not. This seems to be contradicted by the available scientific evidence. >The effect of saturated fat on heart disease has been extensively studied.[23] There are strong, consistent, and graded relationships between saturated fat intake, blood cholesterol levels, and the epidemic of cardiovascular disease.[8] The relationships are accepted as causal.[24][25] >Many health authorities such as the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics,[26] the British Dietetic Association,[27] American Heart Association,[8] the World Heart Federation,[28] the British National Health Service,[29] among others,[30][31] advise that saturated fat is a risk factor for cardiovascular disease. The World Health Organization in May 2015 recommends switching from saturated to unsaturated fats.[32] >There is moderate-quality evidence that reducing the proportion of saturated fat in the diet, and replacing it with unsaturated fats or carbohydrates over a period of at least two years, leads to a reduction in the risk of cardiovascular disease.[23]
  - nradov 5y ago
    If you actually read the referenced studies from an evidence-based medicine standpoint they're pretty weak. They're mostly just observational with unreliable subject reported data. They haven't fully controlled for all confounding factors such as the healthy subject effect. And effect sizes are small. I'm not claiming that saturated fats are necessarily healthy. Just that it's premature to label them as unhealthy. They're probably like almost every other food: fine in moderation but problematic when eaten to excess.
    - gruez 5y ago
      >If you actually read the referenced studies from an evidence-based medicine standpoint they're pretty weak. They're mostly just observational with unreliable subject reported data. They haven't fully controlled for all confounding factors such as the healthy subject effect. And effect sizes are small. The first citation (23) links to https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32827219/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32827219/, which analyzed 15 randomized controlled trials. The effect size is 17% reduction in "combined cardiovascular events". Considering that "heart disease" is the top cause of death in the US (https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/leading_causes_of_death_by_age_group_2015-a.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/leading_causes_of_dea...), that seems like a big effect size.
the-dude 5y ago
Junk food is continuously being exported from US. Here in a medium sized town in The Netherlands, we have multiple MD's, now a KFC, Subway and I must have forgotten some. I still remember when the first MD opened in 1986 ( around the same time we got MTV ). Now it is US franchises all over the place. edit: and not only food, drinks too. We used to have domestic 'soda' brands.
- DangitBobby 5y ago
  It's funny to me that you see Subway as junk food because I see it as one of my healthiest options.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    When I first moved to Europe, I am ashamed to say my first meal was a Subway, because I wanted to give my digestive system something familiar before starting a new life.
    - AuryGlenz 5y ago
      There’s no shame in that. I’m from the US and I’ve had McDonalds in both Japan and Switzerland. It can be nice to have something familiar when you’re feeling out of place or homesick.
  - the-dude 5y ago
    It's funny you see it that way: Subway rolls ruled too sugary to be bread in Ireland https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54370056 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54370056 Subway 'bread' contains 10% sugar, the EU limit is 2%.
    - caturopath 5y ago
      I don't think 2% is EU-wide, but Ireland-specific. (And not present in all contexts -- sugary bread like milk bread or Subway rolls are considered bread for some legal purposes in Ireland.)
mensetmanusman 5y ago
I wonder what % of the population would have to be obese for this to be considered a serious problem. Right now we are at about half, are we talking 70%, 90%, 95%? I am often reminded of the movie Wall-E, and I wouldn’t be surprised if we are headed there on some level.
- mfer 5y ago
  The population is growing more obese. Got that. We are headed toward AI computers to do things for us. Got that. We are launching more satellites into space. Got that. Wall-E may end up being prophetic. The thing I'm interested in more is turning people to something better without arguing (which doesn't work).
  - metalliqaz 5y ago
    Obesity causes suffering. It seems like if we could communicate that effectively, something would change. But that doesn't account for how addictive modern junk food is. Just like everyone knows smoking meth leads to suffering, people still do it. Our food supply is poisonous and highly addictive. We need to take drastic measures in the name of public-health and national security... just like with climate change.
  - carlosf 5y ago
    > without arguing (which doesn't work) My anedote: I went from 290 lbs to 190 lbs over the last year. I totally knew that I was eating garbage, but I thought I was young, so I thought I could just switch to being healthy a few years later. I thought focusing on career was more productive at my age. So I start feeling weird after eating carbs and one blood test later I found out I was on my way to having type 2 diabetes before 30. Losing weight was hard as fuck, it was like my body was completely wired to bad eating and sedentary habits. I often felt like and addict and felt stupid. Like, why couldn't I just exercise and eat less shit? Maybe just like cigarettes, the best approach to junk food is never starting. I guess if I had tested my pressure / blood sugar more often I could have realized how bad things were earlier? So that's an idea.
kingsuper20 5y ago
The equation seems pretty simple to me. 75+ years of highly designed, increasingly addictive foods + significant work on cost reduction + lack of peer pressure = more obesity It would be interesting to see the inflation-corrected per-ounce price of Coca Cola over the last 120 years. Usage appears to be dropping so perhaps there's some hope.
- metalliqaz 5y ago
  the lack of peer pressure came after >50% of the population was fat back in the 90's there was no mainstream HAES movement, or concern about "fat shaming" or any of the other Twitter nonsense
  - kingsuper20 5y ago
    I think that's a fair observation although peer pressure certainly could act as a form of closed loop control. The near-linear increase in modern obesity seems to kick off in the mid-1970s. I'd also want to add the lack of physical activity as people move to doing God's Work by sitting still and tapping on a keyboard with occasional visits to the gym, but I haven't found a decent study showing that over time.
  - shalmanese 5y ago
    Doesn't obesity preceding the HAES movement prove that HAES couldn't have caused the obesity epidemic? If you found a 50% increase in lung cancer next to major highways, would your solution be to use peer pressure to encourage everyone to take shallower breaths and then berate people for not succumbing to peer pressure? Of course not because it's obvious to us that the cause is environmental and the correct approach is regulation to reduce the cause of the disease. Treating obesity as a public health problem rather than a willpower problem is a) obviously a more sane approach and b) contrary to business interests.
    - metalliqaz 5y ago
      I don't know anyone who says HAES caused the obesity epidemic. It's just people who are addicted to food rationalizing their addiction, enabled by the simple fact that most people are overweight in the places they live.
jasontsui 5y ago
I think there is a broader food education issue in the US beyond nutrition- folks simply dont know what to buy, cook and eat, over the course of a life time. The quick fix is a fad diet which comes with instructions and recipes, but these ultimately dont build long term habits. So much of how we write about food here is focused on anti- anti junk, anti fat, anti carb. I think this hints towards the root of the problem where most people dont know what a good foundation is. What are the top 5 American dishes that arent a just disaster for your body?
- i_am_proteus 5y ago
  Many US grocery stores sell fully-cooked chickens with minimal spicing for about six dollars. These are loss leaders and are often less than half the price of an uncooked chicken. Grocery stores also tend to bake their own bread, including basic varieties that don't include sugar, for a few dollars a loaf. Add a can or frozen bag of vegetables and that's a pretty nutritious day's worth of food for relatively little money.
  - grawprog 5y ago
    Oh grocery store deli chickens. I've made meals out of those things more times than i can count. Gotta admit, i've always wondered about the odd pricing compared to uncooked chicken. I usually go for sandwhiches or a chicken salad myself though.
  - DanBC 5y ago
    > Many US grocery stores sell fully-cooked chickens with minimal spicing for about six dollars. These are loss leaders and are often less than half the price of an uncooked chicken An uncooked chicken is about $10-$15? (£7-£10)? I don't understand the US combination of terrible animal welfare standards, terrible food hygiene standards, and high cost. In the UK a fresh whole uncooked chicken is £3.50 ($5). https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/292276232 https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/292276232 Bit cheaper if you want a smaller chicken: https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/304404069 https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/304404069 Bit more if you want higher welfare chicken: https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/256278098 https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/256278098 We can get over £10 if we pick an expensive shop, and then pick one of their most expensive chickens: https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/duchy-organic-free-range-british-whole-chicken/078250-39829-39830 https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/duchy-organic-free-ra...
VivaCascadia 5y ago
I love Bittman's work and this is an interesting overview of what I'm sure is a great book, but I can't help but be hung up on this line: it is perhaps not surprising that the largest municipal water treatment plant in the world is required to allow the people of Des Moines to drink the tap water. That seems nuts to me so I did a quick search and almost instantly figured out that the author's statement is totally inaccurate. All of the world's largest municipal water treatment plants are in major cities like Chicago, Los Angeles, Moscow, and Shanghai. What the author meant was Des Moines is home of one of, if not the largest nitrate removal facilities in the world. Which to me is even more damning than having a huge municipal water treatment plant for a small city. I get the intention, and maybe the author understood the difference but just didn't want to waste words explaining it, but I think they could incorporate something on nitrate pollution ruining their rivers alongside the 'world's largest' comment. From the Des Moines Register: https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2017/05/25/water-works-plans-15-million-expanded-nitrate-facility/336648001/ https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2017/05/25/wate...
Bancakes 5y ago
Are there any authoritative, proven books on nutrition? A 1-2-3 step programme to eating healthy? No, people are expected to get an intuition themselves. I think that's a great issue. Biology class teaches carbs, protein, and fats but not how to apply that knowledge. The Internet is full of anecdotes, paid meal plans by has-beens, and homeopathy. Anyone have good reads to share?
MintsJohn 5y ago
I see the obesity epidemic, notice some brave souls fighting it, but I'm almost sure it'll go from bad to worse. Like many things, humans psyche works against us (or is easily used to trigger us to buy now more more), it isn't meant to deal with an overabundance of bad but delicious foods. As long as it is in the economic interests of the food supply chain to sell more, no awareness campaign no matter how good can stop people from eating the bad stuff that's so readily accessible. Only solution I see is a near ban on the bad stuff, enormous taxes, but I don't see that happening, first because of the industry lobby second because people will see it as too much interference in their lives. In a day and age where individualism and liberatism seem to become core values that's just not gonna happen. So we'll get some awareness campaigns, get some red stickers on a select few products, and in 20 years we'll think every fit person is an athlete.

48 points by andrewl 5y ago

Regenerative ag with animals and produce on one farm seems to me to be the healthiest and most sustainable path forward. Mono anything is terrible for consumption and production externalities. Wheat and other grains that require fortification with vitamins and minerals just to not kill the consumer are terrible and shouldn't be eaten by anyone. Also saturated and animal fats are good for you. Chemically expressed vegetable trans-fats are not. https://thebigfatsurprise.com/ https://thebigfatsurprise.com/ https://drcate.com/deep-nutrition-why-your-genes-need-traditional-food/ https://drcate.com/deep-nutrition-why-your-genes-need-tradit...

i_am_proteus 5y ago
Wheat does not require "fortification with vitamins and minerals just to not kill the consumer." Wheat is a viable staple, up until recently a luxury staple, that forms the basis for a healthy diet when eaten alongside a modest amount of vegetables. For those with gluten intolerances, and also for those without, rice accomplishes the same.
- browningstreet 5y ago
  Given the percentage of wheat that makes up the diets of certain demographics in the US, and the lack of vegetables that go along with it, micronutrient deficient diets are predominant and fortification has been seen as a public health necessity. For those who eat healthy, calorie appropriate, nutrient dense diets... fortification isn't necessary, but that doesn't seem to be the public health version of the world many people operate in.
  - i_am_proteus 5y ago
    This does not mean that wheat "should not be eaten."
    - reedjosh 5y ago
      Wheat should be seen as in the same category as sugar and alcohol--not a part of a healthy diet. It does not provide a needed nutrient. Carbohydrates in this form are terrible for blood sugar and don't provide any nutrients on their own.
      - i_am_proteus 5y ago
        You appear to be conflating "wheat" with "carbohydrates." Wheat contains many necessary nutrients, including, importantly, protein. This article about staple crops provides additional details: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staple_food https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staple_food
        reedjosh 5y ago
        In its truly whole form it provides: Total Fat2.24g3% Saturated Fat0.386g2% Trans Fat- Polyunsaturated Fat0.935g Monounsaturated Fat0.278g Cholesterol0mg0% Sodium6mg0% Total Carbohydrate87.08g32% Dietary Fiber14.6g52% Sugars0.49g Protein16.44g Calcium41mg3% Iron4.66mg26% Potassium486mg10% Which isn't actually that bad, but when you consider the glycemic index is near sugar, and if you ate a diet in the proportions of carbs/fat/protein that this food has, you would have the recommended us low fat diet that has only increased obesity over the last fifty years. https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/generic/flour-whole-wheat https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/generic/flour-w... https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/glycemic-index-and-glycemic-load-for-100-foods https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/glyce... On top of this most people consume wheat as bread--a highly refined version that is likely to have less fiber, protein, fat, and micronutrients. The protein in wheat is not complete either. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1671292708600668 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S16712... Now consider an egg: Calories 74 % Daily Values* Total Fat4.97g6% Saturated Fat1.55g8% Trans Fat- Polyunsaturated Fat0.682g Monounsaturated Fat1.905g Cholesterol212mg71% Sodium70mg3% Total Carbohydrate0.38g0% Dietary Fiber0g0% Sugars0.38g Protein6.29g Calcium26mg2% Iron0.92mg5% Potassium67mg1% Vitamin A70mcg8% All that in 74 calories, and a complete protein.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
gruez 5y ago
> Regenerative ag with animals and produce on one farm seems to me to be the healthiest and most sustainable path forward. What's the evidence for that being healthier? Moreover, what's the health improvement relative to the cost? SV engineers might be willing to pay 3x more for something that's 5% healthier, but not a single parent household making minimum wage. >Also saturated and animal fats are good for you. Chemically expressed vegetable trans-fats are not. This seems to be contradicted by the available scientific evidence. >The effect of saturated fat on heart disease has been extensively studied.[23] There are strong, consistent, and graded relationships between saturated fat intake, blood cholesterol levels, and the epidemic of cardiovascular disease.[8] The relationships are accepted as causal.[24][25] >Many health authorities such as the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics,[26] the British Dietetic Association,[27] American Heart Association,[8] the World Heart Federation,[28] the British National Health Service,[29] among others,[30][31] advise that saturated fat is a risk factor for cardiovascular disease. The World Health Organization in May 2015 recommends switching from saturated to unsaturated fats.[32] >There is moderate-quality evidence that reducing the proportion of saturated fat in the diet, and replacing it with unsaturated fats or carbohydrates over a period of at least two years, leads to a reduction in the risk of cardiovascular disease.[23]
- nradov 5y ago
  If you actually read the referenced studies from an evidence-based medicine standpoint they're pretty weak. They're mostly just observational with unreliable subject reported data. They haven't fully controlled for all confounding factors such as the healthy subject effect. And effect sizes are small. I'm not claiming that saturated fats are necessarily healthy. Just that it's premature to label them as unhealthy. They're probably like almost every other food: fine in moderation but problematic when eaten to excess.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >If you actually read the referenced studies from an evidence-based medicine standpoint they're pretty weak. They're mostly just observational with unreliable subject reported data. They haven't fully controlled for all confounding factors such as the healthy subject effect. And effect sizes are small. The first citation (23) links to https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32827219/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32827219/, which analyzed 15 randomized controlled trials. The effect size is 17% reduction in "combined cardiovascular events". Considering that "heart disease" is the top cause of death in the US (https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/leading_causes_of_death_by_age_group_2015-a.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/leading_causes_of_dea...), that seems like a big effect size.

the-dude 5y ago

Junk food is continuously being exported from US. Here in a medium sized town in The Netherlands, we have multiple MD's, now a KFC, Subway and I must have forgotten some. I still remember when the first MD opened in 1986 ( around the same time we got MTV ). Now it is US franchises all over the place. edit: and not only food, drinks too. We used to have domestic 'soda' brands.

DangitBobby 5y ago
It's funny to me that you see Subway as junk food because I see it as one of my healthiest options.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  When I first moved to Europe, I am ashamed to say my first meal was a Subway, because I wanted to give my digestive system something familiar before starting a new life.
  - AuryGlenz 5y ago
    There’s no shame in that. I’m from the US and I’ve had McDonalds in both Japan and Switzerland. It can be nice to have something familiar when you’re feeling out of place or homesick.
- the-dude 5y ago
  It's funny you see it that way: Subway rolls ruled too sugary to be bread in Ireland https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54370056 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54370056 Subway 'bread' contains 10% sugar, the EU limit is 2%.
  - caturopath 5y ago
    I don't think 2% is EU-wide, but Ireland-specific. (And not present in all contexts -- sugary bread like milk bread or Subway rolls are considered bread for some legal purposes in Ireland.)

mensetmanusman 5y ago

I wonder what % of the population would have to be obese for this to be considered a serious problem. Right now we are at about half, are we talking 70%, 90%, 95%? I am often reminded of the movie Wall-E, and I wouldn’t be surprised if we are headed there on some level.

mfer 5y ago
The population is growing more obese. Got that. We are headed toward AI computers to do things for us. Got that. We are launching more satellites into space. Got that. Wall-E may end up being prophetic. The thing I'm interested in more is turning people to something better without arguing (which doesn't work).
- metalliqaz 5y ago
  Obesity causes suffering. It seems like if we could communicate that effectively, something would change. But that doesn't account for how addictive modern junk food is. Just like everyone knows smoking meth leads to suffering, people still do it. Our food supply is poisonous and highly addictive. We need to take drastic measures in the name of public-health and national security... just like with climate change.
- carlosf 5y ago
  > without arguing (which doesn't work) My anedote: I went from 290 lbs to 190 lbs over the last year. I totally knew that I was eating garbage, but I thought I was young, so I thought I could just switch to being healthy a few years later. I thought focusing on career was more productive at my age. So I start feeling weird after eating carbs and one blood test later I found out I was on my way to having type 2 diabetes before 30. Losing weight was hard as fuck, it was like my body was completely wired to bad eating and sedentary habits. I often felt like and addict and felt stupid. Like, why couldn't I just exercise and eat less shit? Maybe just like cigarettes, the best approach to junk food is never starting. I guess if I had tested my pressure / blood sugar more often I could have realized how bad things were earlier? So that's an idea.

kingsuper20 5y ago

The equation seems pretty simple to me. 75+ years of highly designed, increasingly addictive foods + significant work on cost reduction + lack of peer pressure = more obesity It would be interesting to see the inflation-corrected per-ounce price of Coca Cola over the last 120 years. Usage appears to be dropping so perhaps there's some hope.

metalliqaz 5y ago
the lack of peer pressure came after >50% of the population was fat back in the 90's there was no mainstream HAES movement, or concern about "fat shaming" or any of the other Twitter nonsense
- kingsuper20 5y ago
  I think that's a fair observation although peer pressure certainly could act as a form of closed loop control. The near-linear increase in modern obesity seems to kick off in the mid-1970s. I'd also want to add the lack of physical activity as people move to doing God's Work by sitting still and tapping on a keyboard with occasional visits to the gym, but I haven't found a decent study showing that over time.
- shalmanese 5y ago
  Doesn't obesity preceding the HAES movement prove that HAES couldn't have caused the obesity epidemic? If you found a 50% increase in lung cancer next to major highways, would your solution be to use peer pressure to encourage everyone to take shallower breaths and then berate people for not succumbing to peer pressure? Of course not because it's obvious to us that the cause is environmental and the correct approach is regulation to reduce the cause of the disease. Treating obesity as a public health problem rather than a willpower problem is a) obviously a more sane approach and b) contrary to business interests.
  - metalliqaz 5y ago
    I don't know anyone who says HAES caused the obesity epidemic. It's just people who are addicted to food rationalizing their addiction, enabled by the simple fact that most people are overweight in the places they live.

jasontsui 5y ago

I think there is a broader food education issue in the US beyond nutrition- folks simply dont know what to buy, cook and eat, over the course of a life time. The quick fix is a fad diet which comes with instructions and recipes, but these ultimately dont build long term habits. So much of how we write about food here is focused on anti- anti junk, anti fat, anti carb. I think this hints towards the root of the problem where most people dont know what a good foundation is. What are the top 5 American dishes that arent a just disaster for your body?

i_am_proteus 5y ago
Many US grocery stores sell fully-cooked chickens with minimal spicing for about six dollars. These are loss leaders and are often less than half the price of an uncooked chicken. Grocery stores also tend to bake their own bread, including basic varieties that don't include sugar, for a few dollars a loaf. Add a can or frozen bag of vegetables and that's a pretty nutritious day's worth of food for relatively little money.
- grawprog 5y ago
  Oh grocery store deli chickens. I've made meals out of those things more times than i can count. Gotta admit, i've always wondered about the odd pricing compared to uncooked chicken. I usually go for sandwhiches or a chicken salad myself though.
- DanBC 5y ago
  > Many US grocery stores sell fully-cooked chickens with minimal spicing for about six dollars. These are loss leaders and are often less than half the price of an uncooked chicken An uncooked chicken is about $10-$15? (£7-£10)? I don't understand the US combination of terrible animal welfare standards, terrible food hygiene standards, and high cost. In the UK a fresh whole uncooked chicken is £3.50 ($5). https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/292276232 https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/292276232 Bit cheaper if you want a smaller chicken: https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/304404069 https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/304404069 Bit more if you want higher welfare chicken: https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/256278098 https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/256278098 We can get over £10 if we pick an expensive shop, and then pick one of their most expensive chickens: https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/duchy-organic-free-range-british-whole-chicken/078250-39829-39830 https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/duchy-organic-free-ra...

VivaCascadia 5y ago

I love Bittman's work and this is an interesting overview of what I'm sure is a great book, but I can't help but be hung up on this line: it is perhaps not surprising that the largest municipal water treatment plant in the world is required to allow the people of Des Moines to drink the tap water. That seems nuts to me so I did a quick search and almost instantly figured out that the author's statement is totally inaccurate. All of the world's largest municipal water treatment plants are in major cities like Chicago, Los Angeles, Moscow, and Shanghai. What the author meant was Des Moines is home of one of, if not the largest nitrate removal facilities in the world. Which to me is even more damning than having a huge municipal water treatment plant for a small city. I get the intention, and maybe the author understood the difference but just didn't want to waste words explaining it, but I think they could incorporate something on nitrate pollution ruining their rivers alongside the 'world's largest' comment. From the Des Moines Register: https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2017/05/25/water-works-plans-15-million-expanded-nitrate-facility/336648001/ https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2017/05/25/wate...

Bancakes 5y ago

Are there any authoritative, proven books on nutrition? A 1-2-3 step programme to eating healthy? No, people are expected to get an intuition themselves. I think that's a great issue. Biology class teaches carbs, protein, and fats but not how to apply that knowledge. The Internet is full of anecdotes, paid meal plans by has-beens, and homeopathy. Anyone have good reads to share?

MintsJohn 5y ago

I see the obesity epidemic, notice some brave souls fighting it, but I'm almost sure it'll go from bad to worse. Like many things, humans psyche works against us (or is easily used to trigger us to buy now more more), it isn't meant to deal with an overabundance of bad but delicious foods. As long as it is in the economic interests of the food supply chain to sell more, no awareness campaign no matter how good can stop people from eating the bad stuff that's so readily accessible. Only solution I see is a near ban on the bad stuff, enormous taxes, but I don't see that happening, first because of the industry lobby second because people will see it as too much interference in their lives. In a day and age where individualism and liberatism seem to become core values that's just not gonna happen. So we'll get some awareness campaigns, get some red stickers on a select few products, and in 20 years we'll think every fit person is an athlete.