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When OpenAI trained their Dota model to beat people 1v1 mid SF, they had a contest at The International (the big yearly dota tournament, RIP) like "can you beat

When OpenAI trained their Dota model to beat people 1v1 mid SF, they had a contest at The International (the big yearly dota tournament, RIP) like "can you beat OpenAI's new bot?" and had a big bucket of prizes for anyone that could. By the end of the night, the bucket was empty. People learned to cheese the bot by running "out of bounds", so to speak -- normally in a 1v1, you're supposed to stay close to your opponent, since they'll be getting stronger if you leave. But the bot didn't know how to deal with it when you snuck behind it (normally an insane maneuver, almost guaranteed to cost you the game in normal play) and prevented his army (called "creeps") from running to the middle lane. (All you have to do is go wave your hand at them, and they mindlessly chase you.) People did that over and over, and your own army would eventually overwhelm the bot and win. :)

inostia 5y ago
That's a great story! It definitely speaks to human beings' knack for finding edge cases. Do you know what year that was? I'm wondering if AI has advanced and patched those weaknesses.
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  I am of the surprisingly-controversial opinion that ML’s future is going to be as a human empowerment tool — a bicycle for the mind, yet so much more. Listen to how cool my gamedev music sounds: https://soundcloud.com/theshawwn/sets/ai-generated-videogame-music https://soundcloud.com/theshawwn/sets/ai-generated-videogame... I feel comfortable saying that it’s awesome and being immodest, because I didn’t write it! None of those notes are mine. “Crossing the Channel” has one of the strangest tempos I’ve heard, yet it sounds so cool because I think the model made a mistake early on, and decided it wasn’t a mistake — instead, it came up with the most likely not-mistake it could think of, and it happened to sound great. But I “wrote” all ~20 songs on that list in one night. Took about six hours, aka a standard workday. I don’t think it’s production-grade music - far from it - but it also wasn’t a production grade model. (On the other hand, it was trained by gwern, so I’m skeptical the production models of the future will capture all the little magic that he seems to imbue into his.) I chose the instruments, I decided what sounded good, but I didn’t write a single note. It felt a lot like listening to someone jam out, and asking them to play different things. I was just the fella who was there to listen. That’s where ML is going to shine. The future is going to be so exciting with the things you’ll be able to do. But not in the current direction, I think. Currently, the goal is to factor the human out of the equation entirely. So the answer to your question is: even if the AI has “advanced”, its only because they added this case to the training set. If a human was at the helm, they would have annihilated you, because they’d see what you were doing and pilot the AI over to you. I am skeptical this case is solvable, in a fully automatic way. IMO human empowerment will happen by arming actual humans with these models. (Depressingly, “arming” might have a few meanings depending on how AI war turns out, but that’s a different conversation.)
  - Rodeoclash 5y ago
    Interesting songs. "Crossing the Channel" doesn't seem to have a strange tempo so much as the piano chord on the offbeat (and perhaps some swing on it as well, I can't quite tell). The problem I think AI generate music has to overcome is that it kind of meanders around without coming to any "conclusions". That said, perhaps this is the perfect music for wandering around a town in an RPG!
    - XorNot 5y ago
      This is where the human element comes in though I would think: a guiding hand to say "start ramping up to more of that, okay now you want a lull here..."
    - FractalHQ 5y ago
      The best music I’ve heard from AI by far is AIVA[0], the “AI Composer” with a YouTube channel uploading a couple new songs every week. I’d argue its the only generated music I’ve heard that could pass as “good”. I don’t think it will be long before AI composers are better than all but the most talented humans. [0] https://youtube.com/channel/UCykVChITx5kqBoGkzfz8iZg https://youtube.com/channel/UCykVChITx5kqBoGkzfz8iZg
  - Balgair 5y ago
    > I am of the surprisingly-controversial opinion that ML’s future is going to be as a human empowerment tool — a bicycle for the mind, yet so much more. In chess, these players are called centaurs. Per my limited knowledge of the current chess meta, they are considered to be much better than either people or AI in isolation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_chess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_chess
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - sillysaurusx 5y ago
      Heck yeah, thank you! It's delightful that there's a name for it, because it seems like the first people to become centaurs in their day to day lives will have a massive advantage over those that want the purity of unguided AI. I was eagerly hoping for a video of a centaur vs centaur tournament, but there seem to be none. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=centaur+chess https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=centaur+chess At least, not yet. Maybe someone could do a tournament with https://www.twitch.tv/gmnaroditsky https://www.twitch.tv/gmnaroditsky or https://www.twitch.tv/gmhikaru https://www.twitch.tv/gmhikaru? Actually, the Gotham Chess guy might: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1b-cuPDBZo&list=PLBRObSmbZluRH5GNp2gBxuxxItplWml17&index=2&ab_channel=GothamChess https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1b-cuPDBZo&list=PLBRObSmbZl... He's always looking for new angles for his Youtube channel. Centaurism isn't applicable to every situation -- Starcraft's AI kicks the butts of every pro player, because you can scale up and overwhelm your opponent. But there are often already humans in the mix, in these models. The humans are just designing the loss functions or deciding what to model, rather than using the results. So it's a "delayed" mechanical turk in that sense. When done right, it's so effective that it feels like cheating^Wthe future: https://twitter.com/theshawwn/status/1182208124117307392 https://twitter.com/theshawwn/status/1182208124117307392 Those are some of the nicest Stylegan outputs I've ever made. (Uh, do me a favor and ignore the Zeus one...) Each of them were crafted. The process was to start with something, and that "something" often didn't need to be anything close. For example, if the photo is an old man, but stylegan's showing a kid, you turn up the "age" slider. Do that for every feature; it felt like the character creation screen in fallout. Amazed it isn't an app yet. Artbreeder is nice, but it's not the same -- the key component was to have Peter Baylies' (follow him! https://twitter.com/pbaylies https://twitter.com/pbaylies) reverse encoder as a button you can press. Whenever the model gets too far from what you're thinking, you press it, and it morphs the face back closer to the target photo. In the process, it might distort the age slightly, or make the chin a little bigger, but it's an anchor at sea; it's why you can nail your final result, every time. I predict Centaurism might be popularized by gamedev. It's going to be pretty neat when some studio trains an RL algorithm vs someone's heart rate. Higher heart rate = more enjoyment, lots of the time, so you'd end up with either the funnest game or the scariest game you've ever seen. Probably a decade away from that though.
- Iv 5y ago
  The whole point of running such a stand is to get high quality data from players and make the AI learn from them. You don't 'patch' a reinforcement learning model, you just give it data to train on.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tester34 5y ago
  ""AI"" will probably never be good in games like Dota2, League of Legends they're way too complex, even in above mentioned example it was 1vs1, meanwhile in general those games are 5vs5 (lol at least)
  - drdeca 5y ago
    Never is a long time (...hopefully) Not too long ago, I think some people would have said the same about go.
    - tester34 5y ago
      the difference is that e.g lol constantly changes and you'd have to relearn significant part of game every iirc 2 weeks also those games are waaaaaaaaay more complex than e.g chess I guess we'd need giant advance in computational power in order to analyze hundreds of thousands of matches
  - jjcm 5y ago
    I'm sorry but this is just incorrect - OpenAI beat the previous year's champions in a 5v5 match the year after the 1v1 debut: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkGa8ICQJS8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkGa8ICQJS8 There were restrictions / rules on the game (only a pool of 18 heroes were allowed), but they they won both games in a best of 3. You can see the progression / evolution of the training of the AI here: https://openai.com/projects/five/ https://openai.com/projects/five/ It's definitely doable to train them to be good at extremely complex games like Dota / League, it's just that the resource requirements to train the engine are significant. After the bots were opened to the public, they had a 99.4% win rate against pubs, even accounting for cheese strats.
    - dpatterbee 5y ago
      It's worth mentioning that the restrictions they placed on the game were enormous, to the point that the human players were almost playing a different game. It certainly beat OG in many aspects, but the beauty of dota is the ability to adapt in the game with different strategies, strategies which weren't possible with the restrictions.
hatsunearu 5y ago
Is there a video of this?
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  Sadly not. I'm not sure anyone expected the bot to lose. I've been searching for where I saw it, but 2017 feels like a lifetime ago. I'll link it here if I do. You can watch Black beat the bot in a fair game here, though, which I find immensely satisfying: https://youtu.be/qov1NXsTSbs?t=88 https://youtu.be/qov1NXsTSbs?t=88 IIRC he was one of only like... five? (less?) who managed to win one game.
- adotbacon 5y ago
  Yes, here's an example of the "cheese" strategy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R85WVTFPmRE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R85WVTFPmRE Plays "normally" (cautiously since the bot is so good) until 7:00 accumulating gold for enough items to more safely eliminate the creeps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R85WVTFPmRE&t=420s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R85WVTFPmRE&t=420s
  - sillysaurusx 5y ago
    Thank you so much! I couldn’t find a video anywhere I looked, and started wondering whether I imagined the whole thing. I think these kinds of adversarial examples will be extremely common in production models. People won’t be crafting images that fool the model into thinking you’re a stop sign; they’ll discover that when the human isn’t paying attention, you can run in front of a Tesla with a group of friends and it veers into oncoming traffic. (Terrible made-up example, but I’m pretty sure that it’s a losing game to play “can we think of all possible cases we need to train for ahead of time?”)
  - hatsunearu 5y ago
    that's such a weird behavior, the bot completely ignores the opponent when in that particular spot?!
goalieca 5y ago
Likewise, fancy AIs playing starcraft take also unpredictable moves that well trained human players would never suspect.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
aquateen 5y ago
Kinda reminds me of this old folklore.org story: https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Make_a_Mess,_Clean_it_Up!.txt https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Make_a_Mess,_Cle...
kohlerm 5y ago
I don't think this would work for chess. Leela is using AlphaZero like self training and the strategy is to not be biased by human moves.
- kohlerm 5y ago
  Just look at this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dT6CR9_6l4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dT6CR9_6l4 chess engines improved very much lately with regards to "understanding" chess positions.

inostia 5y ago

That's a great story! It definitely speaks to human beings' knack for finding edge cases. Do you know what year that was? I'm wondering if AI has advanced and patched those weaknesses.

sillysaurusx 5y ago
I am of the surprisingly-controversial opinion that ML’s future is going to be as a human empowerment tool — a bicycle for the mind, yet so much more. Listen to how cool my gamedev music sounds: https://soundcloud.com/theshawwn/sets/ai-generated-videogame-music https://soundcloud.com/theshawwn/sets/ai-generated-videogame... I feel comfortable saying that it’s awesome and being immodest, because I didn’t write it! None of those notes are mine. “Crossing the Channel” has one of the strangest tempos I’ve heard, yet it sounds so cool because I think the model made a mistake early on, and decided it wasn’t a mistake — instead, it came up with the most likely not-mistake it could think of, and it happened to sound great. But I “wrote” all ~20 songs on that list in one night. Took about six hours, aka a standard workday. I don’t think it’s production-grade music - far from it - but it also wasn’t a production grade model. (On the other hand, it was trained by gwern, so I’m skeptical the production models of the future will capture all the little magic that he seems to imbue into his.) I chose the instruments, I decided what sounded good, but I didn’t write a single note. It felt a lot like listening to someone jam out, and asking them to play different things. I was just the fella who was there to listen. That’s where ML is going to shine. The future is going to be so exciting with the things you’ll be able to do. But not in the current direction, I think. Currently, the goal is to factor the human out of the equation entirely. So the answer to your question is: even if the AI has “advanced”, its only because they added this case to the training set. If a human was at the helm, they would have annihilated you, because they’d see what you were doing and pilot the AI over to you. I am skeptical this case is solvable, in a fully automatic way. IMO human empowerment will happen by arming actual humans with these models. (Depressingly, “arming” might have a few meanings depending on how AI war turns out, but that’s a different conversation.)
- Rodeoclash 5y ago
  Interesting songs. "Crossing the Channel" doesn't seem to have a strange tempo so much as the piano chord on the offbeat (and perhaps some swing on it as well, I can't quite tell). The problem I think AI generate music has to overcome is that it kind of meanders around without coming to any "conclusions". That said, perhaps this is the perfect music for wandering around a town in an RPG!
  - XorNot 5y ago
    This is where the human element comes in though I would think: a guiding hand to say "start ramping up to more of that, okay now you want a lull here..."
  - FractalHQ 5y ago
    The best music I’ve heard from AI by far is AIVA[0], the “AI Composer” with a YouTube channel uploading a couple new songs every week. I’d argue its the only generated music I’ve heard that could pass as “good”. I don’t think it will be long before AI composers are better than all but the most talented humans. [0] https://youtube.com/channel/UCykVChITx5kqBoGkzfz8iZg https://youtube.com/channel/UCykVChITx5kqBoGkzfz8iZg
- Balgair 5y ago
  > I am of the surprisingly-controversial opinion that ML’s future is going to be as a human empowerment tool — a bicycle for the mind, yet so much more. In chess, these players are called centaurs. Per my limited knowledge of the current chess meta, they are considered to be much better than either people or AI in isolation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_chess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_chess
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - sillysaurusx 5y ago
    Heck yeah, thank you! It's delightful that there's a name for it, because it seems like the first people to become centaurs in their day to day lives will have a massive advantage over those that want the purity of unguided AI. I was eagerly hoping for a video of a centaur vs centaur tournament, but there seem to be none. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=centaur+chess https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=centaur+chess At least, not yet. Maybe someone could do a tournament with https://www.twitch.tv/gmnaroditsky https://www.twitch.tv/gmnaroditsky or https://www.twitch.tv/gmhikaru https://www.twitch.tv/gmhikaru? Actually, the Gotham Chess guy might: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1b-cuPDBZo&list=PLBRObSmbZluRH5GNp2gBxuxxItplWml17&index=2&ab_channel=GothamChess https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1b-cuPDBZo&list=PLBRObSmbZl... He's always looking for new angles for his Youtube channel. Centaurism isn't applicable to every situation -- Starcraft's AI kicks the butts of every pro player, because you can scale up and overwhelm your opponent. But there are often already humans in the mix, in these models. The humans are just designing the loss functions or deciding what to model, rather than using the results. So it's a "delayed" mechanical turk in that sense. When done right, it's so effective that it feels like cheating^Wthe future: https://twitter.com/theshawwn/status/1182208124117307392 https://twitter.com/theshawwn/status/1182208124117307392 Those are some of the nicest Stylegan outputs I've ever made. (Uh, do me a favor and ignore the Zeus one...) Each of them were crafted. The process was to start with something, and that "something" often didn't need to be anything close. For example, if the photo is an old man, but stylegan's showing a kid, you turn up the "age" slider. Do that for every feature; it felt like the character creation screen in fallout. Amazed it isn't an app yet. Artbreeder is nice, but it's not the same -- the key component was to have Peter Baylies' (follow him! https://twitter.com/pbaylies https://twitter.com/pbaylies) reverse encoder as a button you can press. Whenever the model gets too far from what you're thinking, you press it, and it morphs the face back closer to the target photo. In the process, it might distort the age slightly, or make the chin a little bigger, but it's an anchor at sea; it's why you can nail your final result, every time. I predict Centaurism might be popularized by gamedev. It's going to be pretty neat when some studio trains an RL algorithm vs someone's heart rate. Higher heart rate = more enjoyment, lots of the time, so you'd end up with either the funnest game or the scariest game you've ever seen. Probably a decade away from that though.
Iv 5y ago
The whole point of running such a stand is to get high quality data from players and make the AI learn from them. You don't 'patch' a reinforcement learning model, you just give it data to train on.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tester34 5y ago
""AI"" will probably never be good in games like Dota2, League of Legends they're way too complex, even in above mentioned example it was 1vs1, meanwhile in general those games are 5vs5 (lol at least)
- drdeca 5y ago
  Never is a long time (...hopefully) Not too long ago, I think some people would have said the same about go.
  - tester34 5y ago
    the difference is that e.g lol constantly changes and you'd have to relearn significant part of game every iirc 2 weeks also those games are waaaaaaaaay more complex than e.g chess I guess we'd need giant advance in computational power in order to analyze hundreds of thousands of matches
- jjcm 5y ago
  I'm sorry but this is just incorrect - OpenAI beat the previous year's champions in a 5v5 match the year after the 1v1 debut: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkGa8ICQJS8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkGa8ICQJS8 There were restrictions / rules on the game (only a pool of 18 heroes were allowed), but they they won both games in a best of 3. You can see the progression / evolution of the training of the AI here: https://openai.com/projects/five/ https://openai.com/projects/five/ It's definitely doable to train them to be good at extremely complex games like Dota / League, it's just that the resource requirements to train the engine are significant. After the bots were opened to the public, they had a 99.4% win rate against pubs, even accounting for cheese strats.
  - dpatterbee 5y ago
    It's worth mentioning that the restrictions they placed on the game were enormous, to the point that the human players were almost playing a different game. It certainly beat OG in many aspects, but the beauty of dota is the ability to adapt in the game with different strategies, strategies which weren't possible with the restrictions.

hatsunearu 5y ago

Is there a video of this?

sillysaurusx 5y ago
Sadly not. I'm not sure anyone expected the bot to lose. I've been searching for where I saw it, but 2017 feels like a lifetime ago. I'll link it here if I do. You can watch Black beat the bot in a fair game here, though, which I find immensely satisfying: https://youtu.be/qov1NXsTSbs?t=88 https://youtu.be/qov1NXsTSbs?t=88 IIRC he was one of only like... five? (less?) who managed to win one game.
adotbacon 5y ago
Yes, here's an example of the "cheese" strategy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R85WVTFPmRE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R85WVTFPmRE Plays "normally" (cautiously since the bot is so good) until 7:00 accumulating gold for enough items to more safely eliminate the creeps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R85WVTFPmRE&t=420s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R85WVTFPmRE&t=420s
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  Thank you so much! I couldn’t find a video anywhere I looked, and started wondering whether I imagined the whole thing. I think these kinds of adversarial examples will be extremely common in production models. People won’t be crafting images that fool the model into thinking you’re a stop sign; they’ll discover that when the human isn’t paying attention, you can run in front of a Tesla with a group of friends and it veers into oncoming traffic. (Terrible made-up example, but I’m pretty sure that it’s a losing game to play “can we think of all possible cases we need to train for ahead of time?”)
- hatsunearu 5y ago
  that's such a weird behavior, the bot completely ignores the opponent when in that particular spot?!

goalieca 5y ago

Likewise, fancy AIs playing starcraft take also unpredictable moves that well trained human players would never suspect.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

aquateen 5y ago

Kinda reminds me of this old folklore.org story: https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Make_a_Mess,_Clean_it_Up!.txt https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Make_a_Mess,_Cle...

kohlerm 5y ago

I don't think this would work for chess. Leela is using AlphaZero like self training and the strategy is to not be biased by human moves.

kohlerm 5y ago
Just look at this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dT6CR9_6l4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dT6CR9_6l4 chess engines improved very much lately with regards to "understanding" chess positions.