12 ms·

Some Night-Shift Workers May Have a 300% Higher Risk of Car Crashes

156 points by IMAYousaf 5y ago

offtop5 5y ago
How many of these people are working three or four jobs ?
- petee 5y ago
  Likely a decent number. Sometimes it's just the hours at one. A job I worked once had us doing 14 hour minimums with a rolling start (Monday start at 7am, by Friday start at 3pm), until two of the guys fell asleep on the ride home within one week, one barely surviving hitting a parked garbage truck, and the other ran a red light and flipped some guys minivan. After that we were working 12 hour days instead, in part due to workers saying enoughs enough Sleep in the film industry is a big issue; years ago Heskel Wexler made a great documentary about it after his camera assistant died driving home, it's called "Who Needs Sleep"
  - sethammons 5y ago
    the film industry, sleep, and driving one sparked a memory. i took a film production elective while completing my undergrad. The class left and I stayed behind to finish up. A while later, they walked back in. Confused, I wondered if they all forgot something. Nope. Turned out it was the next class session! I hadn't moved in nearly 24 hours, and was awake at this point for at least 40 hours. I then had over an hour drive home up a curvy mountain road (at night) with thousand foot cliffs. I actually full on hallucinated. 1/3: A giant SUV (20' tall) was reversing onto the highway. I slammed on the breaks only to realize it wasn't there. 2/3: A bit later, a hundred foot tall heavy woman in a moo moo standing akimbo over the road. I recall telling myself to not look up as I passed underneath. 3/3: someone reversing their boat and trailer onto the road, but the boat was 20' tall (my mind had _something_ going on with giants I guess). By that point, I just drove through the illusion, and, after, realized just how scary that was. Finally got home, and I recall aiming for my pillow and being asleep before hitting the mattress.
    - spaetzleesser 5y ago
      You were lucky. You could easily have killed somebody on the way and ended up in prison.
      - sethammons 5y ago
        Oh absolutely. It was not a good idea.
      - exhilaration 5y ago
        At least in the U.S. vehicular homicide (that doesn't involve drugs or alcohol) is usually no more than a ticket. Maybe they'll suspend your license for a couple of months. Prison? Pretty much never.
        spaetzleesser 5y ago
        Don’t publish this too much...
    - stordoff 5y ago
      I've never realised that hallucinations could occur so early, comparatively speaking, into sleep deprivation. I been awake for far longer on a few occasions (longest was a little over 110 hours), and only experienced minor visual effects (trails behind moving objects). I wonder to what degree it differs between people. Mentally though, I was a bit of a mess. I was more or less whilst I was focusing on the thing I was working on, but as soon as I stopped, everything just felt muddy and unclear. I wasn't even sure I was going to find my way to a building I'd walked to multiple times a week for the last three years.
- johncessna 5y ago
  We should really start using hours per week instead of number of jobs. It's too easy to push an agenda with the latter. 'I work 3 jobs' reads differently than 'I work 45 hours a week'
  - kevinh 5y ago
    Number of hours can also be misleading. I work 40 hours a week at one job. Someone who worked 40 hours a week at three jobs would certainly have more difficulties at work, like more commutes, more context switching, not having the benefits that arise from a full time job, etc.
  - offtop5 5y ago
    The issue is each job might have you on call. So you can have some 80 hour work weeks and 8 hour weeks.
  - tdeck 5y ago
    It does matter how many jobs you work though, because low-wage employees arrange things so nobody gets 30 hours a week to qualify for full time benefits. Also the kinds of jobs that people who work 3-4 jobs often work typically have chaotic schedules that aren't set well in advance, meaning that they inevitably come into conflict creating stress and the potential to be fired for not being able to show up at one of them.
    - tdeck 5y ago
      Realize I meant to type "employers" here.
sokoloff 5y ago
> [encourage night-shift workers to] take other modes of transportation, including public transit or ride-share services It's not obvious to me that ride-share services would be materially safer here. It seems like many of the same concerns for night-shift workers in other jobs would also apply to ride-share drivers, added to the propensity for the flexibility of those jobs to increase the number of people driving ride-shares in addition to other full-time employment.
- watwut 5y ago
  Chances are, your ride share is in the middle of shift. Not in the end of shift when driver is most tired. Assuming ride share means Uber and such. AFAIK, drivers treat it as job.
- bootlooped 5y ago
  When I was working a third shift factory job, there was no public transportation that was remotely close to covering my commute, and taking Uber to and from work would have taken a huge bite out of my paycheck. These remedies just aren't realistic for a large number of third shift workers.
- Ericson2314 5y ago
  Public transit is the only option. I would love to see a general audit of night shift work and ongoing plans to keep it at an absolute minimum, but that's probably too utopian a project to see in this country any time soon :/.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    Many night shift jobs already pay a shift differential. Many employees seek out those shifts. Why would we, as a society, want to prevent these seemingly mutually beneficial arrangements? Don’t like shift work? Don’t take a job that requires it, but don’t ban others who do prefer it from taking it because you don’t like it.
    - renewiltord 5y ago
TTPrograms 5y ago
It seems like analyzing fault here is important. Maybe driving late at night makes it more likely you will be hit by another driver (e.g. a drunk driver)?
nickthemagicman 5y ago
It bothers me when they give percentages without accompanying context. 300% of 1 = 3 How many night workers and how many car crashes?
- hervature 5y ago
  Yes, 300% of 1 is 3. Thus, 300% more is 1+3=4 which is a 4x increase. Other commenters have already commented that the article uses both 3x and 300% interchangeably which is wrong.
  - nickthemagicman 5y ago
    My point is that if it's a low number, a 300% increase is still a low number. Using percentages without context is a red flag for me for something possibly being wrong with the article.
    - hervature 5y ago
      If you didn’t know, car accidents are the leading cause of death for anyone under 55 [1]. That’s a big number regardless of its absolute size. [1] - https://www.cdc.gov/injury/features/global-road-safety/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/injury/features/global-road-safety/index...
      - nickthemagicman 5y ago
        Yeah but this article refers to a very specific subset of that larger group.
        hervature 5y ago
        You seem to be suggesting that informing people that working night time shifts is dangerous for them and thus should be compensated proportionally is not important. Again, the absolute number doesn't really matter, the person is significantly raising their chance of dying.
jeena 5y ago
I was working night shift at a factory and preparing a rave during the day when I fell asleep on my way home from work and crashed into a house. It cost my my drivers license for 10 months in Germany.
tohnjitor 5y ago
Sleep deprivation got so bad for me that I would nap in my car at a gas station halfway home. Park at the far end of the lot and set a timer for 20 minutes. I no longer work nights.
- weird-eye-issue 5y ago
  That is bad. I'm glad you don't do that anymore
  - tohnjitor 5y ago
    Thank you. Me too.
- clairity 5y ago
  that’s actually the more responsible thing to do vs. trying to power through (something i’ve been guilty of doing in my younger days). it goes without saying that the ideal is not being sleep deprived at all, but our lives are rarely ideal.
- hanniabu 5y ago
  Yup I've been there, and on hot days you wake up super dehydrated
rossdavidh 5y ago
Anecdatum: I have worked for 30 years at various jobs. Only two of those years was I working a night shift. I have been involved in one car crash that resulted in vehicle damage; it was when I was working night shift. Interesting point: it was on my way _in_ to work at the beginning of the shift, so I didn't attribute it to being on night shift. Now, looking back, I wonder if the wonky sleep schedule was nonetheless a contributing factor. Also: the Fates have now decreed that I'm going to get in a wreck next week.
mlacks 5y ago
at a submarine watchfloor (the 'shore side' of submarine communications) we had a wild schedule: 5am to 5pm for two days, then 5pm to 5am for the next two days. Four days off after that, but then the cycle continues. I can't count the number of times I woke up several hundred yards from where I last was conscious - freeways, intersections, etc. Most of my coworkers had this issue as well. we finally convinced the command to go to a more normal policy, but this took decades.
- jessriedel 5y ago
  Even judged purely based on getting the best work-results out of your subordinates during their working hours, this sounds crazy. What was the stated justification?
  - grayfaced 5y ago
    Most military watchfloors end up on stupid schedules like this. They aren't looking for work-results, they're looking to maximize accountability and minimize drama. The teams are fixed so they can align to command structure, so it will basically always be 4 shifts evenly divided. Because there is no night or weekend incentives, they want to rotate the night/weekends across all 4 teams. I used to do panama shifts, swapping between days/nights every 2 weeks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_plan#Panama_Schedule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_plan#Panama_Schedule
    - jessriedel 5y ago
      Thanks! Useful. Is there any reason they don't rotate, say, once every 3 months rather than once every 2 weeks?
  - spaetzleesser 5y ago
    Sounds a little like the “tough it out” attitude doctors have with their 24 hour shifts during training . I don’t think this can be justified rationally.
  - bombcar 5y ago
antibuddy 5y ago
> Study: Drivers who experience shift work sleep disorder are 3x more likely to be involved in a vehicle crash This would mean (potentially) 200% higher risk, not 300%. PS.: Further down a 300% additional risk is stated, but it's confusing at best.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Using terms like 200% more should probably be avoided given that some percentage of people will equate that with 2x and others will equate it with 3x.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  Have you or anyone else been able to pull the absolute numbers involved here that led to the 300% figure?
cl0ckt0wer 5y ago
I'd think if they want to fix it they should make the employer responsible for it.
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  What makes you think employers want to fix it?
Daishiman 5y ago
For those of us who are naturally nocturnal but work day shifts I'm wondering if we're in the same risk profile by simply not respecting our weird but established circadian rhythms. I naturally wake up at 11AM - 12 PM and have difficulty going to sleep before 3 AM. Having to wake up at 6:30 daily would be a comparable torture.
- superkuh 5y ago
  Or maybe it has nothing to do with circadian rhythms and all people are just significantly worse at driving when there is no light to see (at night).
  - 29083011397778 5y ago
    I wouldn't necessarily assume so, and neither does TFA: >According to researchers at the University of Missouri, people who develop this condition are also three times more likely to be involved in a vehicle accident. They don't mention lack of light, but instead associate the higher crash rate with sleep disorders brought on by consistently working graveyard shifts.
    - superkuh 5y ago
      What times of day are consistently night shift people going to be driving? Mostly night time. It's inseparable unless explicitly controlled for which it sounds like they didn't.
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  I am one of those people (and, also, coincidentally, typing this at 3:07 AM local time). There was a period of time in which I was forced by circumstances to go to bed every night at 10 PM (by which, I mean lights out, in bed, ready to fall asleep), and wake up at 6 AM. I did not like it, but, eventually my body adapted to it to the point where when 10 PM rolled around, I would be tired, and automatically wake up at 6 AM. This all went straight to hell when I ended up working a very long shift one day that extended well past my 10 AM working time. From then on, I was going to sleep more like 12-1AM and waking up at 9-10 AM.
limeblack 5y ago
An increased risk of cancer[1] makes this even worse. [1]: https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/948449 https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/948449
tpmx 5y ago
Sleep apnea - it's weird how you often don't notice/understand it until an external observer who has seen it before tells you what's going on. You just feel very slightly more tired each day. You randomly microsleep without realizing. It's quite insidious. It's obviously very dangerous if you drive a car. This area needs much more awareness (and tech-based "disruption" - especially in detection, but also in making CPAP treatment more affordable and accessible).
- gknoy 5y ago
  Since blood oxygen can be measured with an external sensor, I'd be very surprised if fitbit or Apple watches weren't able to monitor oxygen levels combined with sleep movement to detect this. (They probably already do this.) Edit: Of course, that only works for people who would own one. People working third shifts might not be common in that set.
  - moneywoes 5y ago
    How accurate are those devices without a blood sample?
    - hausen 5y ago
      FDA-cleared pulse oximeters must be accurate to ±4% SpO2. https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/safety-communications/pulse-oximeter-accuracy-and-limitations-fda-safety-communication https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/safety-communications/pu...
      - wlesieutre 5y ago
        Notably, the Apple Watch S6 sensor does not have FDA approval. It's for "wellness." https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/7/21504023/apple-watch-ekg-blood-oxygen-fda-clearance https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/7/21504023/apple-watch-ekg-... > Blood oxygen monitors, or pulse oximeters, are considered Class II medical devices by the FDA. Generally, any company that wants to sell one in the United States has to submit documentation to the agency confirming that its product works just as well as other versions of the same product already on the market. There’s a workaround, though: if the company says that the product is just for fun, or for general “wellness,” they don’t have to go through that process. They can’t claim that it can diagnose or treat any medical conditions, but they can put it up for sale. You might still use that as a cue that you should get tested for sleep apnea, but the watch itself isn't considered a medical device for measuring blood oxygen.
stephen_cagle 5y ago
Once I had an early morning flight to the airport and called an Uber. Sitting shotgun, I got to chatting with the driver. Asking about her day, she told me that she had just come off an 8 hour shift at the airport doing Fedex unloading. She was visibly tired. It was a stressful ride. :/
- toast0 5y ago
  I took a Super Shuttle one fine morning and the driver was drifting in and out of sleep. Scary as heck. They had an app that would beep and he'd wake up and tap it and then kind of drift back. My experience with early morning taxis (if they actually show up) and unlicensed taxis has been a lot better. But I've also resigned to being ok with paying an arm and a leg for airport parking because I trust myself to get enough sleep to drive safely.
ggm 5y ago
Never liked headlines use of x00% to denote x times. They have a threefold higher risk. That's shocking enough, without the extra zeroes
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
doublerabbit 5y ago
Been there, won't do it again. nightshift DC:Op I crashed on the way home after finishing a 12hour 4on4off night shift pattern. And of course had to be on my last shift home.
bentlegen 5y ago
In college one summer I worked on a car factory line, alternating between morning/afternoon and "late shifts" that ended around 11 PM. I had to commute to the factory, and I felt my driving was dangerous in two ways. First, I would drive recklessly fast to get to my 6:00 AM shift start because company policy was that if you were late 3 times you were fired. Second, after my late shift ended, I would be driving home exhausted at night on quiet + dark 2-lane highways. I probably had more near-miss accidents during this 3 month period than the next 15 years as a driver.
- daniel-cussen 5y ago
  Generally companies don't actually need to have 100% of their workers at the same place at the same time ready to start their day. They just like insisting on it, first because they can, it's considered an acceptable cultural norm to always be punctual and it's one of the things they can ask for unlimited amounts of without looking evil. The second reason is, for the boss, it's extremely gratifying to have everyone there at a bad time, at your beck and call. But it's wage theft. Part of it's they want you there early on the off chance you do some work for free. If you punish lateness extremely, the subordinate has to go to extreme lengths to avoid lateness, and that eats up their time in exchange for nothing. Especially with the idea of "no excuses", which is bizarre, because that leads to the logical conclusion that you should spend every hour outside of work commuting to and from work. Every hour. Because there's no excuses, and let's take for granted getting fired is unthinkably bad (it could be), then why not wake up an extra two hours earlier every day? Or four hours? You can't rule out the likelihood that there will be three accidents on the way to work, and there are no excuses, so the logical conclusion is you have to dedicate even more hours to commuting if you really don't want to be late. In fairness to employers, however, there is such a thing as a slippery slope where if you don't insist on showing up on time it becomes a mess and work never starts. And I do believe that being on time every time gives you dignity if you do it for your own sake, as an employee.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - 5y ago
crazygringo 5y ago
Lack of sleep is a huge public health danger that our society refuses to take seriously so far. I highly recommend the book Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker (2018) [1]. It goes into great detail how driving while tired late at night is no different from driving drunk in terms of resulting fatalities -- yet driving while tired is entirely legal while drunk will lose your license. It's also terrifyingly eye-opening in the number of hospital fatalities from sleep-deprived doctors, surgeons, residents, and nurses with their extremely long shifts. This is a conversation America needs to be having. Thankfully there are hard-won limits on how many hours a day drivers and pilots can drive and fly... but it's a vastly larger problem than just those professions. [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1501144324 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1501144324
- HenryKissinger 5y ago
  We also idolize overwork to an unhealthy degree.
- sidm83 5y ago
  This is a brilliant book. You get major new insights every few pages, and many of them are highly relatable with your own experiences with sleep. Probably goes a bit overboard with some of its claims but even then there is too much good in it. Considering we spend anywhere between 25-30% of our lives on this one activity, its almost criminal how we ignore its importance.
hanniabu 5y ago
Anyone on night shift could have told you this, especially 12hr night shift with a 2-2-3 schedule.
lovetocode 5y ago
When I was in the military I was fascinated that they had us pull 24 hr staff duty which is pretty much secretarial work with no sleep and then expected to drive home afterwards.
jfrunyon 5y ago
More accurate title: "People whose sleep patterns don't match up with their work shifts don't drive as well" I don't know why this is surprising. Cognitive function is significantly impaired when you're sleepy.
BurningFrog 5y ago
If you have to drive tired, I strongly recommend getting a car with "Assisted Driving" functions. Primarily for the Adaptive Cruise Control, which makes sure you don't crash into another car. The systems to keep you in your lane are also useful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_driver-assistance_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_driver-assistance_sys...
- sahkopoyta 5y ago
  Which you might not be able to afford if you're at job like that :/
sb057 5y ago
While physiological effects are doubtlessly a part of it, how much of the increase is just down to the fact that driving at night, when it is hard to see, is more dangerous? According to the NHTSA, the odds (per mile) of dying in a car crash at night versus during the day is... approximately 300%. https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/810637 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/...
- freddie_mercury 5y ago
  Unsurprisingly, the scientists thought of that and their study explicitly handles it. That's not the answer.
locardeals 5y ago
Yes
locardeals 5y ago
Yes so you can choose these fantastic cars.. https://www.locardeals.com/best-current-sleeper-cars/ https://www.locardeals.com/best-current-sleeper-cars/
DayDollar 5y ago
On my way to work i would drive past our regional research clinic and we all knew, that the nightshift nurses would drive out at 8-10° clock in the morning. So everyone local drove super-slow and carefully, while the non-locals honked.
RaceWon 5y ago
>> These remedies just aren't realistic for a large number of third shift workers. Its difficult to explain to people who live in cities how different things are in the suburbs. There's no street lights or even Sidewalks where I live. There is No Public transportation in off-peak hours, none. And ride-share... with who--someone who lives miles away from you?? What about in the snow when its a bitch to just get your own ass in on time. This the reality for millions and millions of people in the US.

156 points by IMAYousaf 5y ago

offtop5 5y ago

How many of these people are working three or four jobs ?

petee 5y ago
Likely a decent number. Sometimes it's just the hours at one. A job I worked once had us doing 14 hour minimums with a rolling start (Monday start at 7am, by Friday start at 3pm), until two of the guys fell asleep on the ride home within one week, one barely surviving hitting a parked garbage truck, and the other ran a red light and flipped some guys minivan. After that we were working 12 hour days instead, in part due to workers saying enoughs enough Sleep in the film industry is a big issue; years ago Heskel Wexler made a great documentary about it after his camera assistant died driving home, it's called "Who Needs Sleep"
- sethammons 5y ago
  the film industry, sleep, and driving one sparked a memory. i took a film production elective while completing my undergrad. The class left and I stayed behind to finish up. A while later, they walked back in. Confused, I wondered if they all forgot something. Nope. Turned out it was the next class session! I hadn't moved in nearly 24 hours, and was awake at this point for at least 40 hours. I then had over an hour drive home up a curvy mountain road (at night) with thousand foot cliffs. I actually full on hallucinated. 1/3: A giant SUV (20' tall) was reversing onto the highway. I slammed on the breaks only to realize it wasn't there. 2/3: A bit later, a hundred foot tall heavy woman in a moo moo standing akimbo over the road. I recall telling myself to not look up as I passed underneath. 3/3: someone reversing their boat and trailer onto the road, but the boat was 20' tall (my mind had _something_ going on with giants I guess). By that point, I just drove through the illusion, and, after, realized just how scary that was. Finally got home, and I recall aiming for my pillow and being asleep before hitting the mattress.
  - spaetzleesser 5y ago
    You were lucky. You could easily have killed somebody on the way and ended up in prison.
    - sethammons 5y ago
      Oh absolutely. It was not a good idea.
    - exhilaration 5y ago
      At least in the U.S. vehicular homicide (that doesn't involve drugs or alcohol) is usually no more than a ticket. Maybe they'll suspend your license for a couple of months. Prison? Pretty much never.
      - spaetzleesser 5y ago
        Don’t publish this too much...
  - stordoff 5y ago
    I've never realised that hallucinations could occur so early, comparatively speaking, into sleep deprivation. I been awake for far longer on a few occasions (longest was a little over 110 hours), and only experienced minor visual effects (trails behind moving objects). I wonder to what degree it differs between people. Mentally though, I was a bit of a mess. I was more or less whilst I was focusing on the thing I was working on, but as soon as I stopped, everything just felt muddy and unclear. I wasn't even sure I was going to find my way to a building I'd walked to multiple times a week for the last three years.
johncessna 5y ago
We should really start using hours per week instead of number of jobs. It's too easy to push an agenda with the latter. 'I work 3 jobs' reads differently than 'I work 45 hours a week'
- kevinh 5y ago
  Number of hours can also be misleading. I work 40 hours a week at one job. Someone who worked 40 hours a week at three jobs would certainly have more difficulties at work, like more commutes, more context switching, not having the benefits that arise from a full time job, etc.
- offtop5 5y ago
  The issue is each job might have you on call. So you can have some 80 hour work weeks and 8 hour weeks.
- tdeck 5y ago
  It does matter how many jobs you work though, because low-wage employees arrange things so nobody gets 30 hours a week to qualify for full time benefits. Also the kinds of jobs that people who work 3-4 jobs often work typically have chaotic schedules that aren't set well in advance, meaning that they inevitably come into conflict creating stress and the potential to be fired for not being able to show up at one of them.
  - tdeck 5y ago
    Realize I meant to type "employers" here.

sokoloff 5y ago

> [encourage night-shift workers to] take other modes of transportation, including public transit or ride-share services It's not obvious to me that ride-share services would be materially safer here. It seems like many of the same concerns for night-shift workers in other jobs would also apply to ride-share drivers, added to the propensity for the flexibility of those jobs to increase the number of people driving ride-shares in addition to other full-time employment.

watwut 5y ago
Chances are, your ride share is in the middle of shift. Not in the end of shift when driver is most tired. Assuming ride share means Uber and such. AFAIK, drivers treat it as job.
bootlooped 5y ago
When I was working a third shift factory job, there was no public transportation that was remotely close to covering my commute, and taking Uber to and from work would have taken a huge bite out of my paycheck. These remedies just aren't realistic for a large number of third shift workers.
Ericson2314 5y ago
Public transit is the only option. I would love to see a general audit of night shift work and ongoing plans to keep it at an absolute minimum, but that's probably too utopian a project to see in this country any time soon :/.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Many night shift jobs already pay a shift differential. Many employees seek out those shifts. Why would we, as a society, want to prevent these seemingly mutually beneficial arrangements? Don’t like shift work? Don’t take a job that requires it, but don’t ban others who do prefer it from taking it because you don’t like it.
  - renewiltord 5y ago

TTPrograms 5y ago

It seems like analyzing fault here is important. Maybe driving late at night makes it more likely you will be hit by another driver (e.g. a drunk driver)?

nickthemagicman 5y ago

It bothers me when they give percentages without accompanying context. 300% of 1 = 3 How many night workers and how many car crashes?

hervature 5y ago
Yes, 300% of 1 is 3. Thus, 300% more is 1+3=4 which is a 4x increase. Other commenters have already commented that the article uses both 3x and 300% interchangeably which is wrong.
- nickthemagicman 5y ago
  My point is that if it's a low number, a 300% increase is still a low number. Using percentages without context is a red flag for me for something possibly being wrong with the article.
  - hervature 5y ago
    If you didn’t know, car accidents are the leading cause of death for anyone under 55 [1]. That’s a big number regardless of its absolute size. [1] - https://www.cdc.gov/injury/features/global-road-safety/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/injury/features/global-road-safety/index...
    - nickthemagicman 5y ago
      Yeah but this article refers to a very specific subset of that larger group.
      - hervature 5y ago
        You seem to be suggesting that informing people that working night time shifts is dangerous for them and thus should be compensated proportionally is not important. Again, the absolute number doesn't really matter, the person is significantly raising their chance of dying.

jeena 5y ago

I was working night shift at a factory and preparing a rave during the day when I fell asleep on my way home from work and crashed into a house. It cost my my drivers license for 10 months in Germany.

tohnjitor 5y ago

Sleep deprivation got so bad for me that I would nap in my car at a gas station halfway home. Park at the far end of the lot and set a timer for 20 minutes. I no longer work nights.

weird-eye-issue 5y ago
That is bad. I'm glad you don't do that anymore
- tohnjitor 5y ago
  Thank you. Me too.
clairity 5y ago
that’s actually the more responsible thing to do vs. trying to power through (something i’ve been guilty of doing in my younger days). it goes without saying that the ideal is not being sleep deprived at all, but our lives are rarely ideal.
hanniabu 5y ago
Yup I've been there, and on hot days you wake up super dehydrated

rossdavidh 5y ago

Anecdatum: I have worked for 30 years at various jobs. Only two of those years was I working a night shift. I have been involved in one car crash that resulted in vehicle damage; it was when I was working night shift. Interesting point: it was on my way _in_ to work at the beginning of the shift, so I didn't attribute it to being on night shift. Now, looking back, I wonder if the wonky sleep schedule was nonetheless a contributing factor. Also: the Fates have now decreed that I'm going to get in a wreck next week.

mlacks 5y ago

at a submarine watchfloor (the 'shore side' of submarine communications) we had a wild schedule: 5am to 5pm for two days, then 5pm to 5am for the next two days. Four days off after that, but then the cycle continues. I can't count the number of times I woke up several hundred yards from where I last was conscious - freeways, intersections, etc. Most of my coworkers had this issue as well. we finally convinced the command to go to a more normal policy, but this took decades.

jessriedel 5y ago
Even judged purely based on getting the best work-results out of your subordinates during their working hours, this sounds crazy. What was the stated justification?
- grayfaced 5y ago
  Most military watchfloors end up on stupid schedules like this. They aren't looking for work-results, they're looking to maximize accountability and minimize drama. The teams are fixed so they can align to command structure, so it will basically always be 4 shifts evenly divided. Because there is no night or weekend incentives, they want to rotate the night/weekends across all 4 teams. I used to do panama shifts, swapping between days/nights every 2 weeks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_plan#Panama_Schedule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shift_plan#Panama_Schedule
  - jessriedel 5y ago
    Thanks! Useful. Is there any reason they don't rotate, say, once every 3 months rather than once every 2 weeks?
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  Sounds a little like the “tough it out” attitude doctors have with their 24 hour shifts during training . I don’t think this can be justified rationally.
- bombcar 5y ago

antibuddy 5y ago

> Study: Drivers who experience shift work sleep disorder are 3x more likely to be involved in a vehicle crash This would mean (potentially) 200% higher risk, not 300%. PS.: Further down a 300% additional risk is stated, but it's confusing at best.

ghaff 5y ago
Using terms like 200% more should probably be avoided given that some percentage of people will equate that with 2x and others will equate it with 3x.
TameAntelope 5y ago
Have you or anyone else been able to pull the absolute numbers involved here that led to the 300% figure?

cl0ckt0wer 5y ago

I'd think if they want to fix it they should make the employer responsible for it.

actually_a_dog 5y ago
What makes you think employers want to fix it?

Daishiman 5y ago

For those of us who are naturally nocturnal but work day shifts I'm wondering if we're in the same risk profile by simply not respecting our weird but established circadian rhythms. I naturally wake up at 11AM - 12 PM and have difficulty going to sleep before 3 AM. Having to wake up at 6:30 daily would be a comparable torture.

superkuh 5y ago
Or maybe it has nothing to do with circadian rhythms and all people are just significantly worse at driving when there is no light to see (at night).
- 29083011397778 5y ago
  I wouldn't necessarily assume so, and neither does TFA: >According to researchers at the University of Missouri, people who develop this condition are also three times more likely to be involved in a vehicle accident. They don't mention lack of light, but instead associate the higher crash rate with sleep disorders brought on by consistently working graveyard shifts.
  - superkuh 5y ago
    What times of day are consistently night shift people going to be driving? Mostly night time. It's inseparable unless explicitly controlled for which it sounds like they didn't.
actually_a_dog 5y ago
I am one of those people (and, also, coincidentally, typing this at 3:07 AM local time). There was a period of time in which I was forced by circumstances to go to bed every night at 10 PM (by which, I mean lights out, in bed, ready to fall asleep), and wake up at 6 AM. I did not like it, but, eventually my body adapted to it to the point where when 10 PM rolled around, I would be tired, and automatically wake up at 6 AM. This all went straight to hell when I ended up working a very long shift one day that extended well past my 10 AM working time. From then on, I was going to sleep more like 12-1AM and waking up at 9-10 AM.

limeblack 5y ago

An increased risk of cancer[1] makes this even worse. [1]: https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/948449 https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/948449

tpmx 5y ago

Sleep apnea - it's weird how you often don't notice/understand it until an external observer who has seen it before tells you what's going on. You just feel very slightly more tired each day. You randomly microsleep without realizing. It's quite insidious. It's obviously very dangerous if you drive a car. This area needs much more awareness (and tech-based "disruption" - especially in detection, but also in making CPAP treatment more affordable and accessible).

gknoy 5y ago
Since blood oxygen can be measured with an external sensor, I'd be very surprised if fitbit or Apple watches weren't able to monitor oxygen levels combined with sleep movement to detect this. (They probably already do this.) Edit: Of course, that only works for people who would own one. People working third shifts might not be common in that set.
- moneywoes 5y ago
  How accurate are those devices without a blood sample?
  - hausen 5y ago
    FDA-cleared pulse oximeters must be accurate to ±4% SpO2. https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/safety-communications/pulse-oximeter-accuracy-and-limitations-fda-safety-communication https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/safety-communications/pu...
    - wlesieutre 5y ago
      Notably, the Apple Watch S6 sensor does not have FDA approval. It's for "wellness." https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/7/21504023/apple-watch-ekg-blood-oxygen-fda-clearance https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/7/21504023/apple-watch-ekg-... > Blood oxygen monitors, or pulse oximeters, are considered Class II medical devices by the FDA. Generally, any company that wants to sell one in the United States has to submit documentation to the agency confirming that its product works just as well as other versions of the same product already on the market. There’s a workaround, though: if the company says that the product is just for fun, or for general “wellness,” they don’t have to go through that process. They can’t claim that it can diagnose or treat any medical conditions, but they can put it up for sale. You might still use that as a cue that you should get tested for sleep apnea, but the watch itself isn't considered a medical device for measuring blood oxygen.

stephen_cagle 5y ago

Once I had an early morning flight to the airport and called an Uber. Sitting shotgun, I got to chatting with the driver. Asking about her day, she told me that she had just come off an 8 hour shift at the airport doing Fedex unloading. She was visibly tired. It was a stressful ride. :/

toast0 5y ago
I took a Super Shuttle one fine morning and the driver was drifting in and out of sleep. Scary as heck. They had an app that would beep and he'd wake up and tap it and then kind of drift back. My experience with early morning taxis (if they actually show up) and unlicensed taxis has been a lot better. But I've also resigned to being ok with paying an arm and a leg for airport parking because I trust myself to get enough sleep to drive safely.

ggm 5y ago

Never liked headlines use of x00% to denote x times. They have a threefold higher risk. That's shocking enough, without the extra zeroes

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

doublerabbit 5y ago

Been there, won't do it again. nightshift DC:Op I crashed on the way home after finishing a 12hour 4on4off night shift pattern. And of course had to be on my last shift home.

bentlegen 5y ago

In college one summer I worked on a car factory line, alternating between morning/afternoon and "late shifts" that ended around 11 PM. I had to commute to the factory, and I felt my driving was dangerous in two ways. First, I would drive recklessly fast to get to my 6:00 AM shift start because company policy was that if you were late 3 times you were fired. Second, after my late shift ended, I would be driving home exhausted at night on quiet + dark 2-lane highways. I probably had more near-miss accidents during this 3 month period than the next 15 years as a driver.

daniel-cussen 5y ago
Generally companies don't actually need to have 100% of their workers at the same place at the same time ready to start their day. They just like insisting on it, first because they can, it's considered an acceptable cultural norm to always be punctual and it's one of the things they can ask for unlimited amounts of without looking evil. The second reason is, for the boss, it's extremely gratifying to have everyone there at a bad time, at your beck and call. But it's wage theft. Part of it's they want you there early on the off chance you do some work for free. If you punish lateness extremely, the subordinate has to go to extreme lengths to avoid lateness, and that eats up their time in exchange for nothing. Especially with the idea of "no excuses", which is bizarre, because that leads to the logical conclusion that you should spend every hour outside of work commuting to and from work. Every hour. Because there's no excuses, and let's take for granted getting fired is unthinkably bad (it could be), then why not wake up an extra two hours earlier every day? Or four hours? You can't rule out the likelihood that there will be three accidents on the way to work, and there are no excuses, so the logical conclusion is you have to dedicate even more hours to commuting if you really don't want to be late. In fairness to employers, however, there is such a thing as a slippery slope where if you don't insist on showing up on time it becomes a mess and work never starts. And I do believe that being on time every time gives you dignity if you do it for your own sake, as an employee.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- 5y ago

crazygringo 5y ago

Lack of sleep is a huge public health danger that our society refuses to take seriously so far. I highly recommend the book Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker (2018) [1]. It goes into great detail how driving while tired late at night is no different from driving drunk in terms of resulting fatalities -- yet driving while tired is entirely legal while drunk will lose your license. It's also terrifyingly eye-opening in the number of hospital fatalities from sleep-deprived doctors, surgeons, residents, and nurses with their extremely long shifts. This is a conversation America needs to be having. Thankfully there are hard-won limits on how many hours a day drivers and pilots can drive and fly... but it's a vastly larger problem than just those professions. [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1501144324 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1501144324

HenryKissinger 5y ago
We also idolize overwork to an unhealthy degree.
sidm83 5y ago
This is a brilliant book. You get major new insights every few pages, and many of them are highly relatable with your own experiences with sleep. Probably goes a bit overboard with some of its claims but even then there is too much good in it. Considering we spend anywhere between 25-30% of our lives on this one activity, its almost criminal how we ignore its importance.

hanniabu 5y ago

Anyone on night shift could have told you this, especially 12hr night shift with a 2-2-3 schedule.

lovetocode 5y ago

When I was in the military I was fascinated that they had us pull 24 hr staff duty which is pretty much secretarial work with no sleep and then expected to drive home afterwards.

jfrunyon 5y ago

More accurate title: "People whose sleep patterns don't match up with their work shifts don't drive as well" I don't know why this is surprising. Cognitive function is significantly impaired when you're sleepy.

BurningFrog 5y ago

If you have to drive tired, I strongly recommend getting a car with "Assisted Driving" functions. Primarily for the Adaptive Cruise Control, which makes sure you don't crash into another car. The systems to keep you in your lane are also useful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_driver-assistance_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_driver-assistance_sys...

sahkopoyta 5y ago
Which you might not be able to afford if you're at job like that :/

sb057 5y ago

While physiological effects are doubtlessly a part of it, how much of the increase is just down to the fact that driving at night, when it is hard to see, is more dangerous? According to the NHTSA, the odds (per mile) of dying in a car crash at night versus during the day is... approximately 300%. https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/810637 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/...

freddie_mercury 5y ago
Unsurprisingly, the scientists thought of that and their study explicitly handles it. That's not the answer.

locardeals 5y ago

Yes

locardeals 5y ago

Yes so you can choose these fantastic cars.. https://www.locardeals.com/best-current-sleeper-cars/ https://www.locardeals.com/best-current-sleeper-cars/

DayDollar 5y ago

On my way to work i would drive past our regional research clinic and we all knew, that the nightshift nurses would drive out at 8-10° clock in the morning. So everyone local drove super-slow and carefully, while the non-locals honked.

RaceWon 5y ago

>> These remedies just aren't realistic for a large number of third shift workers. Its difficult to explain to people who live in cities how different things are in the suburbs. There's no street lights or even Sidewalks where I live. There is No Public transportation in off-peak hours, none. And ride-share... with who--someone who lives miles away from you?? What about in the snow when its a bitch to just get your own ass in on time. This the reality for millions and millions of people in the US.