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While establishing a "cause & effect" here seems very hard, from my personal experience working in software field in Japan, I think the winning concept here is

While establishing a "cause & effect" here seems very hard, from my personal experience working in software field in Japan, I think the winning concept here is actually the combination of removing middleman and paying good salaries. Japan is very very behind in IT/digitalization compared to most western countries. This doesn't just mean it's behind in product portfolio and quality, but that perception of software engineer & managers and still quite behind. The respect that a lot of software engineers enjoys in US/EU is not quite there yet in Japan(and salary often reflect this). The C-suite usually doesn't have a firm understanding of software/IT world, and instead ends-up hiring a lot of "Scrum-experts/Agile coaches" and hires software engineers from consultancy or recruitment companies for cheap. There's ofc companies that doesn't fall in this category, but for middle-sized companies in Japan (which is the bulk of the economy), this is the true state of things. Middle-men in Japan have therefore been way more encroaching on this, and they have the incentive to not improve the respect/social standing the software engineers have. "Removing managers" in this article does not mean the same thing as it would in US/EU, conditions are different.

rurounijones 5y ago
As a further example: In my last full-on japanese company it was basically impossible to find any developer with more than 3 years experience by accidental design because: 1: No applicants studied computer science in university so they started learning when they joined the company and were assigned a development role. 2: After 3 years they they got promoted to a "manager" level role and stopped doing development. There was no concept of junior developer -> developer -> senior developer progression. If you wanted promotion you went from developer -> manager; it was the same for sysadmins. Their IT and development suffered heavily for it. A team of 10 "western" style trained senior developers and sysadmins would have been able to do the work of 50 current employees at least for a large overall cost saving even with higher salaries. Just the way things worked. Japan is indeed very different when it comes to how the workplace works in relation to tech in traditional companies.
- devoutsalsa 5y ago
  As a 195cm tall, 120kg, non-Japanese, senior developer who has never been to Japan, I kind of want to get a job at a Japanese company and just see what happens.
  - xupybd 5y ago
    Try Vietnam, they are the shortest in south east Asia. I'm 190 and couldn't fit in a seat at a restaurant outside of tourist spots.
    - JCharante 5y ago
      There's tons of non-tourist spots where you'd fit. It's not super uncommon to find guys who are 180cm or taller, the tallest I've met is 194cm while waiting for the bus. Even at 181cm you do have to watch your head though.. I've hit my head many times while going up stairs, and for those who don't know stairs are extremely common because many businesses are split up across multiple floors of a narrow building.
      - xupybd 5y ago
        When I say I don't fit I'm being a little hyperbolic. I'm talking about sitting at a table with tiny plastic chairs and having my knees sit well above the table.
      - markb139 5y ago
        I'm 200cm and been an ad-hoc tourist attraction in various places I've visited :) Except Hanover, where everybody seemed just as tall
        geoduck14 5y ago
        I have a friend who is about that tall. Every time my 3 yo sees him, she asks for a ride on his shoulders. They wall around and touch ceiling fans.
- 5y ago
kh1 5y ago
Very true, especially hiring "Scrum-experts/Agile coaches" and cheap engineers from outside. Based on my experience, they don't have good understanding of the business, so business people need to write up word-for-word documentation (e.g. Take this column from spreadsheet and multiply by 100 to show the numbers in percentage). At this point, business people who have programming skills wonder why they have to work with corporate IT. On the other hand, don't many western companies outsource IT work as well? Having never worked in US/EU tech industry, I don't see much difference when it comes to outsourcing. (hiring temp engineers is obviously different from outsourcing, but the concept must be the same)
taurath 5y ago
Shhh, buddy, he’s saying raising salaries here we don’t need to give alternate ideas ;)
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Removing useless middlemen allows for raising salaries of the producers.
taurath 5y ago
> Japan is very very behind in IT/digitalization compared to most western countries. This doesn't just mean it's behind in product portfolio and quality, but that perception of software engineer & managers and still quite behind. Have you used anything digital in Japan? I find the interfaces to be fast, user friendly, and energy dense. Far better quality than what most of the western software people put out. You might need to clarify what you mean by behind - just business culture?
- throayobviousl 5y ago
  Is it a coincidence that sony and nintendo have horrendous online offerings?
- asutekku 5y ago
  What? The digital interfaces in Japan looked and felt like they were at least 10 years behind the curve. And if "energy dense" you mean that every single possible option was crammed to a small screen estate then sure.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  I have a personal lifetime ban on buying Panasonic/Matsushita products because of the cruddy alpha quality firmware they built into a dvd player. It crashed 100% of the time when playing CDs among many other unforgivable flaws. Their fix in the revised model was to put a reset button on the front panel. Japan cannot manage complex software without a lot of time and manpower.
- chrisjharris 5y ago
  I can see that you mean well but I really cannot agree with this statement.
  - taurath 5y ago
    I feel as though I was thinking about web applications for major companies and everyone else was thinking of software for built in electronics, which I agree is awful
eecc 5y ago
> he respect that a lot of software engineers enjoys in US/EU And then you go on describing the average attitude towards software developers I perceived in the Netherlands… :)
- f6v 5y ago
  Could you elaborate?
  - tralarpa 5y ago
    I am not OP but I have noticed in several European countries that many companies see software engineering (and IT in general) as a "necessary evil". Even in SMEs selling automation solutions, the perception is that the "real" work is done by the mechanical/electrical engineers and the marketing department, while the software engineers are just...support people, aren't they? And everybody has learned a little bit of python programming at the university, no? /s You need official certificates to be allowed to work with high voltage. But the program that controls that machine there, well, it can be written by some Germanistics student who can't find a job in his original field (no offense intended. I know several brilliant programmers who never studied. I just want to illustrate the difference). If you understand this attitude, you will also understand why the general state of cybersecurity in such companies is such a problem.
    - f6v 5y ago
      I spent a lot of time in Berlin where there's no industry, just software. I can imagine that the attitude is much different somewhere in the west or in the south.
    - rkangel 5y ago
      I think this is common in the rest of the US/EU as well. The difference between how "tech" companies treat software engineers is very different from how "normal" companies treat software. Tech companies "get" that the difference between good and bad software is enormous and that it's worth doing the work to get good people to build it, other companies usually don't.
yulaow 5y ago
Do we get respect as SWE in EU? In every eu state I have been, except maybe uk in some sector, there was the meme that we are "the new blue collar workers" and indeed in a lot of places salaries were pretty much aligned
- wsc981 5y ago
  I think it you want to feel respected as developer in Western Europe, you should be consulting. The best way to get a respectable compensation for your efforts.
  - varispeed 5y ago
    The governments found out that people are making too good money doing this. For example in the UK there is a term "disguised employment" thrown around and consultants being smeared as tax dodgers. This year they changed the law, so that company must declare whether hired person is a genuine contractor or de-facto an employee. There is a fine if they declare a disguised employee as a contractor, but not the other way around. The effect is that companies now offer contracts that always place a contractor as a disguised employee to avoid problems with the tax man. As a result such consultant has to pay over 50% in effective tax. Many good ones I know already looking to move overseas.
- ehnto 5y ago
  I am a software developer, and I feel software developers expect a lot more than is reasonable if they consider themselves part of the same society as everyone else. It's just a job like any other, and it's only in certain bubbles that developers are treated like rockstar prodigies. For the rest of the world, or even just the rest of the US, to expect exceptionally high compensation in order to feel respected is unreasonable in my opinion. Software is an incredible tool and I'm glad to still find ways to love it, but as a profession, it's just like any other. I have felt this way for a while, because I feel we can do a lot more meaningful work within our communities with software than we currently do. But all the developers are instead busy building Nudity in Kettle Reflection algorithms for market place image uploaders while getting rained on by VC money.
fukmbas 5y ago
The US is going backwards. IT departments used to be lean now they're full of MBA types trying to ride the Product wave. For the last decade I had no one between me and the end user. Now there are no less than 4

rurounijones 5y ago

As a further example: In my last full-on japanese company it was basically impossible to find any developer with more than 3 years experience by accidental design because: 1: No applicants studied computer science in university so they started learning when they joined the company and were assigned a development role. 2: After 3 years they they got promoted to a "manager" level role and stopped doing development. There was no concept of junior developer -> developer -> senior developer progression. If you wanted promotion you went from developer -> manager; it was the same for sysadmins. Their IT and development suffered heavily for it. A team of 10 "western" style trained senior developers and sysadmins would have been able to do the work of 50 current employees at least for a large overall cost saving even with higher salaries. Just the way things worked. Japan is indeed very different when it comes to how the workplace works in relation to tech in traditional companies.

devoutsalsa 5y ago
As a 195cm tall, 120kg, non-Japanese, senior developer who has never been to Japan, I kind of want to get a job at a Japanese company and just see what happens.
- xupybd 5y ago
  Try Vietnam, they are the shortest in south east Asia. I'm 190 and couldn't fit in a seat at a restaurant outside of tourist spots.
  - JCharante 5y ago
    There's tons of non-tourist spots where you'd fit. It's not super uncommon to find guys who are 180cm or taller, the tallest I've met is 194cm while waiting for the bus. Even at 181cm you do have to watch your head though.. I've hit my head many times while going up stairs, and for those who don't know stairs are extremely common because many businesses are split up across multiple floors of a narrow building.
    - xupybd 5y ago
      When I say I don't fit I'm being a little hyperbolic. I'm talking about sitting at a table with tiny plastic chairs and having my knees sit well above the table.
    - markb139 5y ago
      I'm 200cm and been an ad-hoc tourist attraction in various places I've visited :) Except Hanover, where everybody seemed just as tall
      - geoduck14 5y ago
        I have a friend who is about that tall. Every time my 3 yo sees him, she asks for a ride on his shoulders. They wall around and touch ceiling fans.
5y ago

kh1 5y ago

Very true, especially hiring "Scrum-experts/Agile coaches" and cheap engineers from outside. Based on my experience, they don't have good understanding of the business, so business people need to write up word-for-word documentation (e.g. Take this column from spreadsheet and multiply by 100 to show the numbers in percentage). At this point, business people who have programming skills wonder why they have to work with corporate IT. On the other hand, don't many western companies outsource IT work as well? Having never worked in US/EU tech industry, I don't see much difference when it comes to outsourcing. (hiring temp engineers is obviously different from outsourcing, but the concept must be the same)

taurath 5y ago

Shhh, buddy, he’s saying raising salaries here we don’t need to give alternate ideas ;)

sokoloff 5y ago
Removing useless middlemen allows for raising salaries of the producers.

taurath 5y ago

> Japan is very very behind in IT/digitalization compared to most western countries. This doesn't just mean it's behind in product portfolio and quality, but that perception of software engineer & managers and still quite behind. Have you used anything digital in Japan? I find the interfaces to be fast, user friendly, and energy dense. Far better quality than what most of the western software people put out. You might need to clarify what you mean by behind - just business culture?

throayobviousl 5y ago
Is it a coincidence that sony and nintendo have horrendous online offerings?
asutekku 5y ago
What? The digital interfaces in Japan looked and felt like they were at least 10 years behind the curve. And if "energy dense" you mean that every single possible option was crammed to a small screen estate then sure.
kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
I have a personal lifetime ban on buying Panasonic/Matsushita products because of the cruddy alpha quality firmware they built into a dvd player. It crashed 100% of the time when playing CDs among many other unforgivable flaws. Their fix in the revised model was to put a reset button on the front panel. Japan cannot manage complex software without a lot of time and manpower.
chrisjharris 5y ago
I can see that you mean well but I really cannot agree with this statement.
- taurath 5y ago
  I feel as though I was thinking about web applications for major companies and everyone else was thinking of software for built in electronics, which I agree is awful

eecc 5y ago

> he respect that a lot of software engineers enjoys in US/EU And then you go on describing the average attitude towards software developers I perceived in the Netherlands… :)

f6v 5y ago
Could you elaborate?
- tralarpa 5y ago
  I am not OP but I have noticed in several European countries that many companies see software engineering (and IT in general) as a "necessary evil". Even in SMEs selling automation solutions, the perception is that the "real" work is done by the mechanical/electrical engineers and the marketing department, while the software engineers are just...support people, aren't they? And everybody has learned a little bit of python programming at the university, no? /s You need official certificates to be allowed to work with high voltage. But the program that controls that machine there, well, it can be written by some Germanistics student who can't find a job in his original field (no offense intended. I know several brilliant programmers who never studied. I just want to illustrate the difference). If you understand this attitude, you will also understand why the general state of cybersecurity in such companies is such a problem.
  - f6v 5y ago
    I spent a lot of time in Berlin where there's no industry, just software. I can imagine that the attitude is much different somewhere in the west or in the south.
  - rkangel 5y ago
    I think this is common in the rest of the US/EU as well. The difference between how "tech" companies treat software engineers is very different from how "normal" companies treat software. Tech companies "get" that the difference between good and bad software is enormous and that it's worth doing the work to get good people to build it, other companies usually don't.

yulaow 5y ago

Do we get respect as SWE in EU? In every eu state I have been, except maybe uk in some sector, there was the meme that we are "the new blue collar workers" and indeed in a lot of places salaries were pretty much aligned

wsc981 5y ago
I think it you want to feel respected as developer in Western Europe, you should be consulting. The best way to get a respectable compensation for your efforts.
- varispeed 5y ago
  The governments found out that people are making too good money doing this. For example in the UK there is a term "disguised employment" thrown around and consultants being smeared as tax dodgers. This year they changed the law, so that company must declare whether hired person is a genuine contractor or de-facto an employee. There is a fine if they declare a disguised employee as a contractor, but not the other way around. The effect is that companies now offer contracts that always place a contractor as a disguised employee to avoid problems with the tax man. As a result such consultant has to pay over 50% in effective tax. Many good ones I know already looking to move overseas.
ehnto 5y ago
I am a software developer, and I feel software developers expect a lot more than is reasonable if they consider themselves part of the same society as everyone else. It's just a job like any other, and it's only in certain bubbles that developers are treated like rockstar prodigies. For the rest of the world, or even just the rest of the US, to expect exceptionally high compensation in order to feel respected is unreasonable in my opinion. Software is an incredible tool and I'm glad to still find ways to love it, but as a profession, it's just like any other. I have felt this way for a while, because I feel we can do a lot more meaningful work within our communities with software than we currently do. But all the developers are instead busy building Nudity in Kettle Reflection algorithms for market place image uploaders while getting rained on by VC money.

fukmbas 5y ago

The US is going backwards. IT departments used to be lean now they're full of MBA types trying to ride the Product wave. For the last decade I had no one between me and the end user. Now there are no less than 4