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Moving to London for a Tech Job

thesimon 5y ago
My feeling was that outside of FAANG you would have to move to Zone 3-4 or share a flat. Combined with the hassle for EU citizen nowadays to get a work permit it does not sound so enticing anymore. Though for FAANG London still seems to have a better ratio of salary to CoL than Dublin.
- ben_w 5y ago
  Even as a British citizen who likes city life, London in particular never tempted me, because of both the nationally infamous housing cost and the un-fun experience of Tube travel.
  - coob 5y ago
    The Tube's not the only way to get around London! Zone 1 maybe, but commuter rail is pretty decent by international standards (apart from Southern).
    - madaxe_again 5y ago
      I used to commute by boat, from Putney Pier to Embankment and back. Short walk to both the office and home at either end, and it was marginally cheaper than a season ticket on the tube, and infinitely more pleasant, usually.
    - botwriter 5y ago
      South Eastern is terrible aswell. No real 1st class seating (you'd never know other than its clearly marked) and no damn plugs unless you're on the one High speed line.
    - cameronh90 5y ago
      Also bicycle is good. If you pick the right place (look at the cycleways map), you can usually find somewhere with a mostly off-road cycle route from home to your office.
  - fastball 5y ago
    Last time I lived in London I actually enjoyed trying to use the bus as much as possible. Riding on the top of a double decker bus is a nice experience: there is almost always seating available, the views are better, the air is less stuffy / you're less likely to melt in the summer, you are more likely to get directly from point A to point B, and it's cheaper. All that combined means it's much easier / more enjoyable to do some work / read a book on your commute if you're using the bus, which for me was worth the extra journey time. Obviously for longer journeys you still need the tube/train, but I lived fairly centrally so was able to either bus or bike 90% of the time.
  - varispeed 5y ago
    I lived in London most of my life, but I am thinking about moving to a smaller city. What would you recommend in terms of safety, access to tech scene and property prices? It's much easier to get a remote gig, so it seems like a location will no longer be a problem.
    - Hard_Space 5y ago
      If you're looking for pastoral splendor and thinking beyond the extreme commuter belt, try the north-east. I went out with a lady from there for some years, and traveled up from London most weekends. Like Romania, it has an almost impenetrable firewall of negative PR that isn't born out by the experience of living there. Yes, there's an ugly old ICI factory that covers several square miles (the emblem of the region). But everything beyond that is gorgeous, green and largely untrammeled. I shall never forget walking through waterfall-strewn valleys and splendid forests and meeting hardly anyone else except some friendly dog-walkers.
    - ben_w 5y ago
      I definitely enjoyed Cambridge and its commuter villages. Lots of tech employment, the villages are cheaper than the city itself and close enough to commute by bicycle. Plymouth was decent enough, but I was only there as an industrial placement student, so I’m not sure about non-student prices. Aberystwyth is pretty, but tiny, ~4 hours from anywhere that isn’t rural Wales regardless of your mode of transport, and literally 30% of the population are students. I didn’t stay long after graduation precisely because of the lack of tech jobs. Portsmouth area is terrible for the tech scene — I grew up close to there, my siblings still live nearby, but when one of them was job hunting they ended up getting one just outside Farnborough with a one hour commute. Sheffield is cheap, but I was trying to be a self-employed game dev when I was there, so I can’t say anything about the tech scene. If you still care about location for everything except work, there’s lots of pretty countryside on the South Downs, Norfolk, Aberystwyth area, and west of Sheffield. St. Ives (the one near Cambridge) is probably one of the best combinations of cheap and pretty (just be aware of the flood zones).
      - varispeed 5y ago
- ggambetta 5y ago
  I used to live in Harrow on the Hill. Zone 5, but great connection to central London with the metropolitan line. Much better commute than when I lived in Parsons Green, which was zone 2!
- txdv 5y ago
  London is contention zone for billionaires and millionaires buying up property left and right. What kid of property can you buy if you are a good software dev working at FAANG?
  - declnz 5y ago
    How long have you been working there (deposits are a major factor in mortgages here)?
    - txdv 5y ago
      I live in east Europe, work in IT and I am just trying to gauge how comfortable you can live with big tech money in London
      - spuz 5y ago
        If you have a partner on a similarly decent salary, then probably quite comfortably. If you are the only significant earner, then probably not that comfortably. I managed to buy a 2-bed flat in zone 2 in 2013 for £400k but it has no garden and has other downsides that I would have liked to avoid if I could have afforded more. You have to really be earning CEO levels of pay or buy with a partner in order to live really comfortably within zone 2.
  - barrkel 5y ago
    We own a 3 story 4 bedroom townhouse with garden and garage in Enfield, ~ 400k. Mortgage is about 1400 a month. The countryside is close by, both Hertfordshire and Essex. Housing is expensive in rough proportion to how central you are, and especially how close to tube stations you are. But it's also possible to live quite well. My commute would be a little over 1 hour each way by public transport, but I generally used a motorbike, closer to 35 minutes. We are however leaving, in large part due to Brexit. I'm Irish, my partner is German, and neither of us wants our son to be schooled in this country. The political situation is heading in an Orban-like direction, they're locking up EU citizens at the border and the anti-EU rhetoric from leadership and tabloids is relentless. I would not come here as an EU citizen. I quit my job and joined Google in part because they'll relocate me to Zurich.
- acta_non_verba 5y ago
  “Hassle” is relative. It’s just as easy or easier than the 220 countries outside the EU. Ya know, the ones with north of 20x the population of the EU.
  - WJW 5y ago
    How many people do you think live in the EU? Because the largest countries (China and India, respectively) 'only' have about 1.3 billion people each, about 3x the EU at 450 million. Even the entire rest of the earth combined won't get you to "north of 20x" that number.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    As some who has to get work permits in 2 different countries, and have friends who did in 10, I can testify that British immigration system is one of the most difficult, arbitrary and expensive, far supassing Spain, portugal, Germany, Czech Republic, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Ireland, France, etc The only immigration system I am aware of that's more hostile is US. Obviously there are many countries I know nothing about
    - botwriter 5y ago
      You're doing it wrong mate you need to cross the channel in a rubber dingy and you get everything for free!
    - guenthert 5y ago
      I'd think that's an outlier experience. Clearly it depends on various circumstances and there is a more of less hidden institutionalized racism involved, but as a German, immigrating to USA was smooth sailing (via green card lottery in my case). More important however might be the interaction with locals. And from what I witnessed, Americans (well, Californians at least) are much more welcoming than Germans.
- quietbritishjim 5y ago
  > outside of FAANG ... Or working for a bank, which is the classic high-paid London job. The pure software engineers get paid less than quants/traders (which can get astronomical comp depending on what exactly they do) but usually still very substantial.
- cameronh90 5y ago
  I've never worked for a FAANG, and I live in a 2 bed flat, a 10 minute commute to my office in central London. I am not pushing my budget. There are plenty of well paying tech jobs outside of FAANG, but many of them are in finance.
  - angrais 5y ago
    What's your monthly salary and your rent? What you consider not pushing a budget may not be the same for most.
    - cameronh90 5y ago
      I'm spending about 18% of my salary on rent, which is well below the national average. I'm hoping to buy a house soon which will be more of a challenge.
      - angrais 5y ago
        Well done mate! 18% is very low, which is great. Are you sharing rent with a housemate or partner?
caiob 5y ago
25% income tax? Yikes.
milliams 5y ago
I'm from the UK so the section "What percentage of your salary goes to taxes?" seemed perfectly normal to me. The way the "comment from the editor" is written ("Unfortunately, in England, higher salaries will mean higher tax rates." and "England's tax brackets can be slightly confusing") make it sound like this is not commonly how it works in other counties. Could anyone tell me about how this differs from where you are?
- StavrosK 5y ago
  I definitely can't, I haven't seen a country where it doesn't work the same way as in the UK. I suspect the author gets confused by the tiered tax rates the same way everyone is, where they think that if you make 45,001 GBP, you are now going to pay more tax on the entire amount, rather than just the extra GBP.
  - yrro 5y ago
    It's astounding that people smart enough to land a job that pays enough to push them into the higher rate band of income tax are so often confused about how their taxes are actually calculated!
    - fastball 5y ago
      Not really. At least in the US, the tax code is lobbied to be kept intentionally confusing so that TurboTax et al can continue to make a lot of money off doing it for you.
    - pavlov 5y ago
      It's hard to make a man understand something that conflicts with his ideological preconception that the government must be ripping him off.
    - TheCabin 5y ago
      Sadly many countries have 0 education on this topic and it might not be straightforward to get hold on good information about the subject.
Hard_Space 5y ago
As a native-born Brit who moved to Eastern Europe four years ago, there is some information in here I actually didn't know. Also, as someone who has moved country twice (six years in Italy was the first time), I should note that this article doesn't deal with what I can only describe as general UK culture and the British character. I would strongly advise anyone heading Britside to do what I did with Bucharest and have as long an 'exploratory' trip as you can to get a feel of the place: the way people look you in the eye (or don't); whether you sense hostility; and just the general social atmosphere. You can assess this kind of thing in a couple of weeks, usually, at least at a broad level. As someone who gladly left, I'm obviously not the person to ask about whether you'd like living there. But it would be a good idea to stay with friends there, if possible, and scout that aspect out for yourself.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  Out of curiosity why did you move from the UK to Bucharest?
  - Hard_Space 5y ago
    I wanted to settle in Europe prior to Brexit finalizing, but I felt I was kind of done with Italy, having lived all over that country. Romanian is another Romance language, like Italian, so I figured (quite wrongly!) that it would be easy to learn. It was a right move for the wrong reasons, and I eventually found everything I was looking for here, including well-paid remote work (prior even to COVID).
  - dragosmocrii 5y ago
    Probably LCOL, 10% income tax, great food, and stunning women.
    - ChrisKnott 5y ago
      The comment about women is fucking weird, especially the "take your pick" vibe in the context of moving to a much poorer country.
switch007 5y ago
https://listentotaxman.com https://listentotaxman.com is a useful tool to calculate net salary (and generally stays up-to-date).
calpaterson 5y ago
Every internet thread about anywhere popular is quickly filled with people saying that they tried it and didn't like it. That's natural and I think fine, and anyone considering moving to London should consider all the disadvantages. But there are also great advantages: it's easy to find work here, it's a walkable place where there is no need to own a car (or even know how to drive), although many complain the weather is in fact very mild and it's very achievable for someone on a software engineer salary to raise a family close(ish) to the centre. Of course there's plenty of "cultural" whatnot too. I love it here and wouldn't move anywhere else. If you are thinking about moving here, I'm happy to answer any "dumb" questions you have over email (see my profile).
- uxcolumbo 5y ago
  In your view, what are the disadvantages?
  - calpaterson 5y ago
    The primary disadvantage is the high cost of housing. That is the "root cause" of many other knock-on problems that are caused: inappropriate living space for some people, some with long commutes, some people feeling like they or others they know don't really live in London but instead in some dormitory town outside the M25. Until we can get the cost of housing under control there are all sorts of people who I would like to live here and "be part of it" but whose lines of work don't pay them enough to. But this problem arguably exists in every Western city at the moment. I have my own pet policy ideas which I won't raise here. I will say that this problem seems to be markedly worse elsewhere, for example in American cities, Australia, Canada and also even on (western half of) the continent. EDIT: Also pollution levels
- stiray 5y ago
  Let me tell you a story. I am a linux kernel level developer. Even better, I have implemented multiple windows drivers in my life. And I have tried to implement application level firewall for linux as after 20 years there is still none around (I have abandoned the work as kernel was protected against my method). Proficient in C/C++/Rust/Go/Java/Python/Assembly/... or to rather say it in anything in Tiobe, even Prolog. I have a nice job at my country at 2250 euros / month (which is twice the average salary) and I was asked to work for some company where I would get around 3000 euros/month. And now it gets interesting. On interview, they will ask me various questions about my work that should theoretically be memorized by anyone comming from the school education. I have 25 years of development behind me and I dont have the "stack" to remember everything. And I am already decided to give them "fuck off" once they start with the theory. On other side, I have a child from previous marriage and I will not leave the country for the sake of the team. Child development is more important to me. So, I am over-competent engineer, bullied by idiotic recruiting, fixed in the position that I have, unable to relocate due to life circumstances. And now "moving to London" is a thing. Yeah right.
varispeed 5y ago
It is interesting how companies can justify sponsoring someone on the basis other than they cannot find a specialist for the money they are willing to pay. Don't get me wrong - immigration should be encouraged and I think it should be easier for people from various backgrounds to come and contribute. What isn't right, is that companies register huge profits (and often transfer them to tax havens) and don't share them with employees, while at the same time complaining they cannot find developers. Just pay more and you'll find plenty!
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  Why pay more if I can access talent overseas for a lower salary (and an extra 10k in application fees)? This is going to be even more relevant in a post covid world, after companies realise outsourcing can be viable.
zerr 5y ago
AFAIK in London you'll be making more as an Uber or cab driver than as a dev if you are not interested working in finance sector or at a couple of advertising shops.
- beforeolives 5y ago
  This is incorrect. By a very large margin.
  - zerr 5y ago
    Is it? I've seen GBP 50K marketed as a decent salary for seniors. GBP 25K-35K for juniors. Talking about full-time employees.
    - beforeolives 5y ago
      Those numbers are very low for London, you might see them in the rest of the UK though.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  I disagree. Tons of relatively unknown companies making 100mln per year, paying 100k for seniors (usually stock comp is worthless though, that's how fang engineers make their money). Personally I've always avoided fangs because of politics and having to commute in the office (which also means I could move outside of London). It's not USA salaries but you get cheaper healthcare, more holidays, you can make some decent living and the extra freedom is welcome if you have a family or if you want to have a rich social life.
- SilurianWenlock 5y ago
  How sarcastic is this?
- intricatedetail 5y ago
  I agree. I know plenty unskilled workers who make more money than even senior devs. They are all self employed though. I remember being quite frustrated when a friend who was a cleaner made fun of me that she was making more than me.
punnerud 5y ago
> “ it's also a magnet for many of Europe's promising startups” Is this still just as valid after Brexit?
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  Investment is still high and it's likely to improve. I would argue that things are going to improve outside of the EU because it will free up the UK to deal more freely with Honk Kong / China and capital coming from Asia in general. There are a few fields where it's important to have a base in EU (eg. betting), but those companies already moved away from London to Malta and Cyprus. The reason investments arrive in London is largely because of the English language and ease of movement between USA and the UK. Wealth is trickling from overseas. You also have Ireland nearby to do dodgy tax deals, which comes in handy. I don't see Europe becoming more relevant for tech startups; it seems like they're trying to force the hand by making a sort of nationalised tech scene but I doubt they'll be as efficient as the market. The other nice place in Europe (but outside of the EU) for tech / banking is Zurich, in Switzerland.
secondcoming 5y ago
I lived in London for 15 years. It was great. I house-shared for most of that and it's a great way to meet people if you're new to the city and don't know anyone. Others had pretty bad experiences though. London is also quite cycle friendly so you don't technically have to get public transport all the time, which is great especially when it gets hot in summer.
- SilurianWenlock 5y ago
  What kind of bad experiences?
  - secondcoming 5y ago
    Problematic housemates.
user5994461 5y ago
>>> It gets more affordable if you go elsewhere in Greater London. I was able to find a two-bedroom flat for under £1,300 The rest of the article seems quite on point, but that rent, I just can't quite put my finger on it. There is no way you're getting a 2 bedroom for anywhere near that. It's not even in the right ballpark. What you could afford for £1300 is a 1 bedroom, at a fair distance from central, thanks to the sharp drop in rent from coronavirus last year. I'm certainly curious to know what he is renting. Either he's not living in London or I missed a second wave of rent drop from coronavirus.
- samdb 5y ago
  I've never understood why people pay so much money to live in studio flats in crap areas of a city. We live out in Kent and including a drive to the train station and buying the ticket can be in central London in 40 minutes. That gets us an £1100 mortgage payment on a 4 bed house surrounded by farmland. Sometimes when we meet friends who live in London for dinner it takes them longer to get to the restaurant than it does us.
  - ubercow13 5y ago
    I think many younger people without families are not interested in being surrounded by farmland.
new_here 5y ago
Visiting London is a blast, living and working there is a grind. I was deeply unhappy after three years (from 2016) but I really enjoy going back to visit socially. I was earning pretty decently and living in Zone 2 between Holloway Road (Piccadilly) and Highbury & Islington (Overground) stations. Once the novelty wore off and I'd got into the work day commute all I noticed was how filthy and over-crowded it is, and how nothing works. Too hot, too cold, too much snow or too much rain and trains don't run which causes a massive backlog of people and delays. It takes 40 min to get anywhere and there are frequently obstacles during your journeys (signal failures etc). You live in the same town but never see some of your friends because it is such a saga to get there and back. I worked in Leicester Square and could not get proper mobile signal there most of the time. Moving apartments is super stressful and estate agents gouge you every step of the way. Doing any sort of admin in that town is an absolute nightmare. The restaurants are some of the best in the world but most of the time you need to book at least two weeks in advance, so there is almost zero chance of spontaneity. While restaurants are a bit pricey it's a 50% chance of being mediocre or the best meal of your life. Not to mention every time you sit down you are reminded that your two hour time limit on the table has started. Any exciting band or festival has tickets that sell out in seconds. I also felt that interactions with people could often be a fine line between sarcasm and being patronising. A lot of my friends raved about London 10 years ago (and I believe them) but most have now left or are wanting to. It's a shame though, London seems like it can be a great city but is being crushed under the weight of all the people and honestly the quality of life I experienced there was just not that good. It really feels like too many people have moved there and it's become a bit of a tragedy of commons situation. Sorry to be a downer but I really feel that London gets a lot of hype and from my experience doesn't seem justified in its current state. So just wanted to share some of my experiences.
- Traster 5y ago
  One thing I will say is if you are happy to walk an hour, London is fantastic. Most people don’t want that on their daily commute. London is in a weird political situation too - the national government is conservative but the mayor is labour. So it’s politically expedient for national government to fuck up London for political points - especially transport budgets.
wiradikusuma 5y ago
For those with experience migrating (preferably your whole family) from a 3rd world country to 1st world, please help answer: 1. How old is too old? (E.g. "Don't bother migrating if you're 30+, you're too old for the job.") 2. How "recognized" is your experience and your previous role (e.g. can a Senior IT Manager in Myanmar be a Senior IT Manager in UK?) 3. How's the salary adjustment going to be? "Current salary +30%" won't cut it as the living costs will be very different.
Dig1t 5y ago
Okay London is awesome, and good for this guy for moving there. WOW though, "Above £60,000" salary. Despite the exchange rate, £1 pretty much buys you the same goods as $1 in the US (£5 coffee anyone?). For such a high cost city, this pay sounds atrocious. You could live in SF and make literally triple that easily. Plus the taxes are super high in London too. I don't really buy the idea that having the NHS makes this all worth it either. Working in California you can get an employer health plan (Kaiser, etc) for $50 a month pre-tax that is in fact better in quality (no wait times, no need to get referrals to see any kind of doctor you want) than the NHS and never have to pay more than a $20 copay for any service. It sounds like a super fun life experience, money isn't everything, I would absolutely love to do this but I don't know how I could ever justify cutting my pay from 350k -> 115k AND paying super high tax just to live in a specific city.
- Traster 5y ago
  As an engineer in the UK this is probably true. I’m currently in finance which to some extent defies gravity, but in general it’s true that a good Software engineer salary in London is 50-100k pounds. FANG probably 100-150. And your effective rate of tax will be 30%ish and a decent place to live will be 2-3k. It’s definitely better being in the US for software. You could argue this is why companies in the UK are recruiting from lower cost countries - because they don’t compete with higher cost countries in terms of compensation.
- intricatedetail 5y ago
  If someone gets 60k in London, it's probably they have not even tried to negotiate. However even if you get 100k, then good chunk of that is eaten by taxes. Only way to get reasonable money was b2b, but recent changes to IR35 made it difficult. If you get caught by the rules you may pay over 50% of tax. UK for IT is over. The NHS indeed is underwhelming. I have to use private doctors because in my case NHS was useless.
botwriter 5y ago
London doesn't represent England. Unless you're a millionaire+ most Brits hate London. In fact the amount of English Londoners fleeing London is insane. Its not just prices but crime and diversity.
florianherrengt 5y ago
I have been working in London as a developer for 7 years and, to me, it’s the best city in Europe to be in tech. Maybe I could be making 3 times more in SF but I wouldn’t be in Europe, close to my friends and family.

My feeling was that outside of FAANG you would have to move to Zone 3-4 or share a flat. Combined with the hassle for EU citizen nowadays to get a work permit it does not sound so enticing anymore. Though for FAANG London still seems to have a better ratio of salary to CoL than Dublin.

ben_w 5y ago
Even as a British citizen who likes city life, London in particular never tempted me, because of both the nationally infamous housing cost and the un-fun experience of Tube travel.
- coob 5y ago
  The Tube's not the only way to get around London! Zone 1 maybe, but commuter rail is pretty decent by international standards (apart from Southern).
  - madaxe_again 5y ago
    I used to commute by boat, from Putney Pier to Embankment and back. Short walk to both the office and home at either end, and it was marginally cheaper than a season ticket on the tube, and infinitely more pleasant, usually.
  - botwriter 5y ago
    South Eastern is terrible aswell. No real 1st class seating (you'd never know other than its clearly marked) and no damn plugs unless you're on the one High speed line.
  - cameronh90 5y ago
    Also bicycle is good. If you pick the right place (look at the cycleways map), you can usually find somewhere with a mostly off-road cycle route from home to your office.
- fastball 5y ago
  Last time I lived in London I actually enjoyed trying to use the bus as much as possible. Riding on the top of a double decker bus is a nice experience: there is almost always seating available, the views are better, the air is less stuffy / you're less likely to melt in the summer, you are more likely to get directly from point A to point B, and it's cheaper. All that combined means it's much easier / more enjoyable to do some work / read a book on your commute if you're using the bus, which for me was worth the extra journey time. Obviously for longer journeys you still need the tube/train, but I lived fairly centrally so was able to either bus or bike 90% of the time.
- varispeed 5y ago
  I lived in London most of my life, but I am thinking about moving to a smaller city. What would you recommend in terms of safety, access to tech scene and property prices? It's much easier to get a remote gig, so it seems like a location will no longer be a problem.
  - Hard_Space 5y ago
    If you're looking for pastoral splendor and thinking beyond the extreme commuter belt, try the north-east. I went out with a lady from there for some years, and traveled up from London most weekends. Like Romania, it has an almost impenetrable firewall of negative PR that isn't born out by the experience of living there. Yes, there's an ugly old ICI factory that covers several square miles (the emblem of the region). But everything beyond that is gorgeous, green and largely untrammeled. I shall never forget walking through waterfall-strewn valleys and splendid forests and meeting hardly anyone else except some friendly dog-walkers.
  - ben_w 5y ago
    I definitely enjoyed Cambridge and its commuter villages. Lots of tech employment, the villages are cheaper than the city itself and close enough to commute by bicycle. Plymouth was decent enough, but I was only there as an industrial placement student, so I’m not sure about non-student prices. Aberystwyth is pretty, but tiny, ~4 hours from anywhere that isn’t rural Wales regardless of your mode of transport, and literally 30% of the population are students. I didn’t stay long after graduation precisely because of the lack of tech jobs. Portsmouth area is terrible for the tech scene — I grew up close to there, my siblings still live nearby, but when one of them was job hunting they ended up getting one just outside Farnborough with a one hour commute. Sheffield is cheap, but I was trying to be a self-employed game dev when I was there, so I can’t say anything about the tech scene. If you still care about location for everything except work, there’s lots of pretty countryside on the South Downs, Norfolk, Aberystwyth area, and west of Sheffield. St. Ives (the one near Cambridge) is probably one of the best combinations of cheap and pretty (just be aware of the flood zones).
    - varispeed 5y ago
ggambetta 5y ago
I used to live in Harrow on the Hill. Zone 5, but great connection to central London with the metropolitan line. Much better commute than when I lived in Parsons Green, which was zone 2!
txdv 5y ago
London is contention zone for billionaires and millionaires buying up property left and right. What kid of property can you buy if you are a good software dev working at FAANG?
- declnz 5y ago
  How long have you been working there (deposits are a major factor in mortgages here)?
  - txdv 5y ago
    I live in east Europe, work in IT and I am just trying to gauge how comfortable you can live with big tech money in London
    - spuz 5y ago
      If you have a partner on a similarly decent salary, then probably quite comfortably. If you are the only significant earner, then probably not that comfortably. I managed to buy a 2-bed flat in zone 2 in 2013 for £400k but it has no garden and has other downsides that I would have liked to avoid if I could have afforded more. You have to really be earning CEO levels of pay or buy with a partner in order to live really comfortably within zone 2.
- barrkel 5y ago
  We own a 3 story 4 bedroom townhouse with garden and garage in Enfield, ~ 400k. Mortgage is about 1400 a month. The countryside is close by, both Hertfordshire and Essex. Housing is expensive in rough proportion to how central you are, and especially how close to tube stations you are. But it's also possible to live quite well. My commute would be a little over 1 hour each way by public transport, but I generally used a motorbike, closer to 35 minutes. We are however leaving, in large part due to Brexit. I'm Irish, my partner is German, and neither of us wants our son to be schooled in this country. The political situation is heading in an Orban-like direction, they're locking up EU citizens at the border and the anti-EU rhetoric from leadership and tabloids is relentless. I would not come here as an EU citizen. I quit my job and joined Google in part because they'll relocate me to Zurich.
acta_non_verba 5y ago
“Hassle” is relative. It’s just as easy or easier than the 220 countries outside the EU. Ya know, the ones with north of 20x the population of the EU.
- WJW 5y ago
  How many people do you think live in the EU? Because the largest countries (China and India, respectively) 'only' have about 1.3 billion people each, about 3x the EU at 450 million. Even the entire rest of the earth combined won't get you to "north of 20x" that number.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  As some who has to get work permits in 2 different countries, and have friends who did in 10, I can testify that British immigration system is one of the most difficult, arbitrary and expensive, far supassing Spain, portugal, Germany, Czech Republic, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Ireland, France, etc The only immigration system I am aware of that's more hostile is US. Obviously there are many countries I know nothing about
  - botwriter 5y ago
    You're doing it wrong mate you need to cross the channel in a rubber dingy and you get everything for free!
  - guenthert 5y ago
    I'd think that's an outlier experience. Clearly it depends on various circumstances and there is a more of less hidden institutionalized racism involved, but as a German, immigrating to USA was smooth sailing (via green card lottery in my case). More important however might be the interaction with locals. And from what I witnessed, Americans (well, Californians at least) are much more welcoming than Germans.
quietbritishjim 5y ago
> outside of FAANG ... Or working for a bank, which is the classic high-paid London job. The pure software engineers get paid less than quants/traders (which can get astronomical comp depending on what exactly they do) but usually still very substantial.
cameronh90 5y ago
I've never worked for a FAANG, and I live in a 2 bed flat, a 10 minute commute to my office in central London. I am not pushing my budget. There are plenty of well paying tech jobs outside of FAANG, but many of them are in finance.
- angrais 5y ago
  What's your monthly salary and your rent? What you consider not pushing a budget may not be the same for most.
  - cameronh90 5y ago
    I'm spending about 18% of my salary on rent, which is well below the national average. I'm hoping to buy a house soon which will be more of a challenge.
    - angrais 5y ago
      Well done mate! 18% is very low, which is great. Are you sharing rent with a housemate or partner?

caiob 5y ago

25% income tax? Yikes.

milliams 5y ago

I'm from the UK so the section "What percentage of your salary goes to taxes?" seemed perfectly normal to me. The way the "comment from the editor" is written ("Unfortunately, in England, higher salaries will mean higher tax rates." and "England's tax brackets can be slightly confusing") make it sound like this is not commonly how it works in other counties. Could anyone tell me about how this differs from where you are?

StavrosK 5y ago
I definitely can't, I haven't seen a country where it doesn't work the same way as in the UK. I suspect the author gets confused by the tiered tax rates the same way everyone is, where they think that if you make 45,001 GBP, you are now going to pay more tax on the entire amount, rather than just the extra GBP.
- yrro 5y ago
  It's astounding that people smart enough to land a job that pays enough to push them into the higher rate band of income tax are so often confused about how their taxes are actually calculated!
  - fastball 5y ago
    Not really. At least in the US, the tax code is lobbied to be kept intentionally confusing so that TurboTax et al can continue to make a lot of money off doing it for you.
  - pavlov 5y ago
    It's hard to make a man understand something that conflicts with his ideological preconception that the government must be ripping him off.
  - TheCabin 5y ago
    Sadly many countries have 0 education on this topic and it might not be straightforward to get hold on good information about the subject.

Hard_Space 5y ago

As a native-born Brit who moved to Eastern Europe four years ago, there is some information in here I actually didn't know. Also, as someone who has moved country twice (six years in Italy was the first time), I should note that this article doesn't deal with what I can only describe as general UK culture and the British character. I would strongly advise anyone heading Britside to do what I did with Bucharest and have as long an 'exploratory' trip as you can to get a feel of the place: the way people look you in the eye (or don't); whether you sense hostility; and just the general social atmosphere. You can assess this kind of thing in a couple of weeks, usually, at least at a broad level. As someone who gladly left, I'm obviously not the person to ask about whether you'd like living there. But it would be a good idea to stay with friends there, if possible, and scout that aspect out for yourself.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
Out of curiosity why did you move from the UK to Bucharest?
- Hard_Space 5y ago
  I wanted to settle in Europe prior to Brexit finalizing, but I felt I was kind of done with Italy, having lived all over that country. Romanian is another Romance language, like Italian, so I figured (quite wrongly!) that it would be easy to learn. It was a right move for the wrong reasons, and I eventually found everything I was looking for here, including well-paid remote work (prior even to COVID).
- dragosmocrii 5y ago
  Probably LCOL, 10% income tax, great food, and stunning women.
  - ChrisKnott 5y ago
    The comment about women is fucking weird, especially the "take your pick" vibe in the context of moving to a much poorer country.

switch007 5y ago

https://listentotaxman.com https://listentotaxman.com is a useful tool to calculate net salary (and generally stays up-to-date).

calpaterson 5y ago

Every internet thread about anywhere popular is quickly filled with people saying that they tried it and didn't like it. That's natural and I think fine, and anyone considering moving to London should consider all the disadvantages. But there are also great advantages: it's easy to find work here, it's a walkable place where there is no need to own a car (or even know how to drive), although many complain the weather is in fact very mild and it's very achievable for someone on a software engineer salary to raise a family close(ish) to the centre. Of course there's plenty of "cultural" whatnot too. I love it here and wouldn't move anywhere else. If you are thinking about moving here, I'm happy to answer any "dumb" questions you have over email (see my profile).

uxcolumbo 5y ago
In your view, what are the disadvantages?
- calpaterson 5y ago
  The primary disadvantage is the high cost of housing. That is the "root cause" of many other knock-on problems that are caused: inappropriate living space for some people, some with long commutes, some people feeling like they or others they know don't really live in London but instead in some dormitory town outside the M25. Until we can get the cost of housing under control there are all sorts of people who I would like to live here and "be part of it" but whose lines of work don't pay them enough to. But this problem arguably exists in every Western city at the moment. I have my own pet policy ideas which I won't raise here. I will say that this problem seems to be markedly worse elsewhere, for example in American cities, Australia, Canada and also even on (western half of) the continent. EDIT: Also pollution levels
stiray 5y ago
Let me tell you a story. I am a linux kernel level developer. Even better, I have implemented multiple windows drivers in my life. And I have tried to implement application level firewall for linux as after 20 years there is still none around (I have abandoned the work as kernel was protected against my method). Proficient in C/C++/Rust/Go/Java/Python/Assembly/... or to rather say it in anything in Tiobe, even Prolog. I have a nice job at my country at 2250 euros / month (which is twice the average salary) and I was asked to work for some company where I would get around 3000 euros/month. And now it gets interesting. On interview, they will ask me various questions about my work that should theoretically be memorized by anyone comming from the school education. I have 25 years of development behind me and I dont have the "stack" to remember everything. And I am already decided to give them "fuck off" once they start with the theory. On other side, I have a child from previous marriage and I will not leave the country for the sake of the team. Child development is more important to me. So, I am over-competent engineer, bullied by idiotic recruiting, fixed in the position that I have, unable to relocate due to life circumstances. And now "moving to London" is a thing. Yeah right.

varispeed 5y ago

It is interesting how companies can justify sponsoring someone on the basis other than they cannot find a specialist for the money they are willing to pay. Don't get me wrong - immigration should be encouraged and I think it should be easier for people from various backgrounds to come and contribute. What isn't right, is that companies register huge profits (and often transfer them to tax havens) and don't share them with employees, while at the same time complaining they cannot find developers. Just pay more and you'll find plenty!

jokethrowaway 5y ago
Why pay more if I can access talent overseas for a lower salary (and an extra 10k in application fees)? This is going to be even more relevant in a post covid world, after companies realise outsourcing can be viable.

zerr 5y ago

AFAIK in London you'll be making more as an Uber or cab driver than as a dev if you are not interested working in finance sector or at a couple of advertising shops.

beforeolives 5y ago
This is incorrect. By a very large margin.
- zerr 5y ago
  Is it? I've seen GBP 50K marketed as a decent salary for seniors. GBP 25K-35K for juniors. Talking about full-time employees.
  - beforeolives 5y ago
    Those numbers are very low for London, you might see them in the rest of the UK though.
jokethrowaway 5y ago
I disagree. Tons of relatively unknown companies making 100mln per year, paying 100k for seniors (usually stock comp is worthless though, that's how fang engineers make their money). Personally I've always avoided fangs because of politics and having to commute in the office (which also means I could move outside of London). It's not USA salaries but you get cheaper healthcare, more holidays, you can make some decent living and the extra freedom is welcome if you have a family or if you want to have a rich social life.
SilurianWenlock 5y ago
How sarcastic is this?
intricatedetail 5y ago
I agree. I know plenty unskilled workers who make more money than even senior devs. They are all self employed though. I remember being quite frustrated when a friend who was a cleaner made fun of me that she was making more than me.

punnerud 5y ago

> “ it's also a magnet for many of Europe's promising startups” Is this still just as valid after Brexit?

jokethrowaway 5y ago
Investment is still high and it's likely to improve. I would argue that things are going to improve outside of the EU because it will free up the UK to deal more freely with Honk Kong / China and capital coming from Asia in general. There are a few fields where it's important to have a base in EU (eg. betting), but those companies already moved away from London to Malta and Cyprus. The reason investments arrive in London is largely because of the English language and ease of movement between USA and the UK. Wealth is trickling from overseas. You also have Ireland nearby to do dodgy tax deals, which comes in handy. I don't see Europe becoming more relevant for tech startups; it seems like they're trying to force the hand by making a sort of nationalised tech scene but I doubt they'll be as efficient as the market. The other nice place in Europe (but outside of the EU) for tech / banking is Zurich, in Switzerland.

secondcoming 5y ago

I lived in London for 15 years. It was great. I house-shared for most of that and it's a great way to meet people if you're new to the city and don't know anyone. Others had pretty bad experiences though. London is also quite cycle friendly so you don't technically have to get public transport all the time, which is great especially when it gets hot in summer.

SilurianWenlock 5y ago
What kind of bad experiences?
- secondcoming 5y ago
  Problematic housemates.

user5994461 5y ago

>>> It gets more affordable if you go elsewhere in Greater London. I was able to find a two-bedroom flat for under £1,300 The rest of the article seems quite on point, but that rent, I just can't quite put my finger on it. There is no way you're getting a 2 bedroom for anywhere near that. It's not even in the right ballpark. What you could afford for £1300 is a 1 bedroom, at a fair distance from central, thanks to the sharp drop in rent from coronavirus last year. I'm certainly curious to know what he is renting. Either he's not living in London or I missed a second wave of rent drop from coronavirus.

samdb 5y ago
I've never understood why people pay so much money to live in studio flats in crap areas of a city. We live out in Kent and including a drive to the train station and buying the ticket can be in central London in 40 minutes. That gets us an £1100 mortgage payment on a 4 bed house surrounded by farmland. Sometimes when we meet friends who live in London for dinner it takes them longer to get to the restaurant than it does us.
- ubercow13 5y ago
  I think many younger people without families are not interested in being surrounded by farmland.

new_here 5y ago

Visiting London is a blast, living and working there is a grind. I was deeply unhappy after three years (from 2016) but I really enjoy going back to visit socially. I was earning pretty decently and living in Zone 2 between Holloway Road (Piccadilly) and Highbury & Islington (Overground) stations. Once the novelty wore off and I'd got into the work day commute all I noticed was how filthy and over-crowded it is, and how nothing works. Too hot, too cold, too much snow or too much rain and trains don't run which causes a massive backlog of people and delays. It takes 40 min to get anywhere and there are frequently obstacles during your journeys (signal failures etc). You live in the same town but never see some of your friends because it is such a saga to get there and back. I worked in Leicester Square and could not get proper mobile signal there most of the time. Moving apartments is super stressful and estate agents gouge you every step of the way. Doing any sort of admin in that town is an absolute nightmare. The restaurants are some of the best in the world but most of the time you need to book at least two weeks in advance, so there is almost zero chance of spontaneity. While restaurants are a bit pricey it's a 50% chance of being mediocre or the best meal of your life. Not to mention every time you sit down you are reminded that your two hour time limit on the table has started. Any exciting band or festival has tickets that sell out in seconds. I also felt that interactions with people could often be a fine line between sarcasm and being patronising. A lot of my friends raved about London 10 years ago (and I believe them) but most have now left or are wanting to. It's a shame though, London seems like it can be a great city but is being crushed under the weight of all the people and honestly the quality of life I experienced there was just not that good. It really feels like too many people have moved there and it's become a bit of a tragedy of commons situation. Sorry to be a downer but I really feel that London gets a lot of hype and from my experience doesn't seem justified in its current state. So just wanted to share some of my experiences.

Traster 5y ago
One thing I will say is if you are happy to walk an hour, London is fantastic. Most people don’t want that on their daily commute. London is in a weird political situation too - the national government is conservative but the mayor is labour. So it’s politically expedient for national government to fuck up London for political points - especially transport budgets.

wiradikusuma 5y ago

For those with experience migrating (preferably your whole family) from a 3rd world country to 1st world, please help answer: 1. How old is too old? (E.g. "Don't bother migrating if you're 30+, you're too old for the job.") 2. How "recognized" is your experience and your previous role (e.g. can a Senior IT Manager in Myanmar be a Senior IT Manager in UK?) 3. How's the salary adjustment going to be? "Current salary +30%" won't cut it as the living costs will be very different.

Dig1t 5y ago

Okay London is awesome, and good for this guy for moving there. WOW though, "Above £60,000" salary. Despite the exchange rate, £1 pretty much buys you the same goods as $1 in the US (£5 coffee anyone?). For such a high cost city, this pay sounds atrocious. You could live in SF and make literally triple that easily. Plus the taxes are super high in London too. I don't really buy the idea that having the NHS makes this all worth it either. Working in California you can get an employer health plan (Kaiser, etc) for $50 a month pre-tax that is in fact better in quality (no wait times, no need to get referrals to see any kind of doctor you want) than the NHS and never have to pay more than a $20 copay for any service. It sounds like a super fun life experience, money isn't everything, I would absolutely love to do this but I don't know how I could ever justify cutting my pay from 350k -> 115k AND paying super high tax just to live in a specific city.

Traster 5y ago
As an engineer in the UK this is probably true. I’m currently in finance which to some extent defies gravity, but in general it’s true that a good Software engineer salary in London is 50-100k pounds. FANG probably 100-150. And your effective rate of tax will be 30%ish and a decent place to live will be 2-3k. It’s definitely better being in the US for software. You could argue this is why companies in the UK are recruiting from lower cost countries - because they don’t compete with higher cost countries in terms of compensation.
intricatedetail 5y ago
If someone gets 60k in London, it's probably they have not even tried to negotiate. However even if you get 100k, then good chunk of that is eaten by taxes. Only way to get reasonable money was b2b, but recent changes to IR35 made it difficult. If you get caught by the rules you may pay over 50% of tax. UK for IT is over. The NHS indeed is underwhelming. I have to use private doctors because in my case NHS was useless.

botwriter 5y ago

London doesn't represent England. Unless you're a millionaire+ most Brits hate London. In fact the amount of English Londoners fleeing London is insane. Its not just prices but crime and diversity.

florianherrengt 5y ago

I have been working in London as a developer for 7 years and, to me, it’s the best city in Europe to be in tech. Maybe I could be making 3 times more in SF but I wouldn’t be in Europe, close to my friends and family.