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EV Range Breakthrough as New Aluminum-Ion Battery Charges 60 Times Faster to Lit
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago> GMG plans to bring graphene aluminum-ion coin cells to market late this year or early next year, with automotive pouch cells planned to roll out in early 2024 Well, that's pleasantly surprising if true. I was expecting the standard caveat of it only being in research so far.
- garyrichardson 5y agoAlthough bringing some batteries to market this year indicates it is quite far along. Most of the battery/energy news I’ve seen on hn is “breakthrough will hit the market 5+ Years”.
- soco 5y agoI read so many breakthroughs in cell technologies lately, that I can't tell anymore what is research and what is success. Not being a specialist doesn't help either... So, are those plans based on real and tested batteries (as in, not just surface tests or whatever laboratory conditions), or thoughts how it would pan out if successful?
- cmsonger 5y ago100% that's the most important claim in the article. A few times a month I open the browser and see some "world changing battery technology" being talked about. Here we are however many years later and the world has not changed. The phones I can buy have LI batteries, the EVs I can buy have LI batteries, the few utility scale battery packs are LI batteries. Seems like having a technology that crosses the "publish revolutionary battery tech in the press" hurdle is dramatically lower than the "actually make a battery at product scale for a profit" hurdle, and not all of the former will make the latter. Here's hoping these folks do what they say on their production part, because I'm pretty desensitized to the first part of their claim.
- dghughes 5y ago> A few times a month I open the browser and see some "world changing battery technology" being talked about. Here we are however many years later and the world has not changed. That is the entire reason for Popular Science magazine it did for decades. Amazing things that never were built some were yes but many were not. It's fun to read about it but I can see how it could be frustrating too.
- imtringued 5y ago99% of battery research has never left the lab. It's considered a milestone to reach battery pouch production because literally anyone can make coin cells but pouch cells require some serious initial investment.
- hourislate 5y agoIf it were true, wouldn't it stand to reason that someone would have snatched them up a long time ago. Tesla, GM, FORD,VW, etc? They would have been all over this company ages ago. Over 90% of all the published breakthroughs are fantasy.
- SketchySeaBeast 5y agoThat's why I'm still wary. And you're not even listing all the cellphone and laptop manufacturer's that would be interested, especially with those claimed charge times.
- brightball 5y ago> “It charges so fast it’s basically a super capacitor,” Nicol claimed. “It charges an iPhone coin cell in less than 10 seconds.” > The new battery cells are claimed to deliver far more energy density than current lithium-ion batteries, without the cooling, heating or rare-earth problems they face. > “So far there are no temperature problems. Twenty percent of a lithium-ion battery pack (in a vehicle) is to do with cooling them. There is a very high chance that we won’t need that cooling or heating at all,” Nicol claimed. Am I off base by saying, this is potentially world changing if true?
- eloff 5y agoNo, it's huge if its true. Also it means it's much more efficient because you're not losing all that energy to waste heat.
- Reason077 5y agoPotentially. But the trade off with Al-ion cells is lower energy density, and thus less battery life/range compared to Li-ion. Would you accept half the battery life/range if it means you can recharge in 5 minutes instead of an hour? In phones, probably not. In cars and trucks, maybe, depending on the specific application. In stationary storage? Quite possibly!
- toomuchtodo 5y agoStation storage is where it's at, these would firm up renewables quite nicely.
- jartelt 5y agoThey will face two big challenges trying to make these for stationary storage: 1) Lifetime - Historically aluminum ion batteries struggle with cycle life. The aluminum ions are bigger than lithium ions so the batteries endure more strain during charge/discharge cycles. For grid-scale storage, you need to be able to last >10,000 cycles so they need to address this. 2) Scaling up the size of the batteries. Eventually they will need to move on from coin cells and start making larger battery cells. Many technologies struggle to keep their fast charge/discharge characteristics when they scale up in size. We'll see how they do with this.
- choeger 5y agoThey claim 150Wh/kg - that's well below the best lithium ion cells, I think. If I am not mistaken, Lithium Ion cells reach more than 200Wh/kg nowadays and are definitely capable of reaching 300Wh/kg.
- brightball 5y agoSeems like the lack of need for cooling weight would make up for the difference.
- altcognito 5y agoThis is close to on par with Lithium ion (cobalt/nickel) 200-250Wh/kg. Newer Li/S technology is 2x denser (400-500Wh/kg) but currently has durability issues over recharge cycles. Al/graphene in this form could be more cost effective and probably marginally lighter due to a lack of cooling/heating needed, safety equipment, and rare earth minerals needed. That it charges faster and has more durability over recharge cycles would be a bonus. Another open question is if you can produce this at industrial scale relatively cheaply, because having affordable gigawatt storage for renewables would be lovely. This: https://finance.yahoo.com/finance/news/gmg-graphene-aluminium-ion-battery-200435268.html https://finance.yahoo.com/finance/news/gmg-graphene-aluminiu... may be a better article. Here is a clarifying quote: > Dr Ashok Nanjundan, GMG’s Chief Scientific Officer, said, “This is a real game-changing technology which can offer a real alternative with an interchangeable battery technology for the existing lithium-ion batteries in almost every application with GMG’s Graphene and UQ’s patent-pending aluminium ion battery technology. The current nominal voltage of our batteries is 1.7 volts, and work is being carried out to increase the voltage to directly replace existing batteries and which lead to higher energy densities.” > “The real differentiator about these batteries is their very high power density of up to 7000 watts/kg, which endows them with a very high charge rate. Furthermore, graphene aluminium-ion batteries provide major benefits in terms of longer battery life (over 2000 charge / discharge cycles testing so far with no deterioration in performance), battery safety (very low fire potential) and lower environmental impact (more recyclable),” said Dr Ashok Nanjundan.
- 5y ago
- tummulfingur 5y ago> “It charges so fast it’s basically a super capacitor,” Nicol claimed. “It charges an iPhone coin cell in less than 10 seconds.” Are iPhone batteries considered coin cells? Isn't a coin cell like the ones shown here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Button_cell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Button_cell which are much smaller in capacity? If he is indeed referring to a 2000-4000mAh battery size then that is amazing.
- qayxc 5y agoNah, that just doesn't make any sense at all. It even contradicts their own numbers, which calculated the charge time for an average phone to 1 - 5 minutes [0]. IMO this article is just a hot mess cobbled together by someone who doesn't have the faintest idea about what he's even writing about. [0] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/gmg-graphene-aluminium-ion-battery-200435268.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/gmg-graphene-aluminium-ion-ba...
- bagacrap 5y agoWell it's a quote, so the author of the article didn't write the claim. There's another article out there which inserts a word: "iPhone sized coin cell", which makes a little more sense.
- twobitshifter 5y agoThe design of the iPhone and coin cell are similar. The iPhone battery is essentially a wrapped up coin cell. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RTjy2eFHzRc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RTjy2eFHzRc In comparison a package battery like in an EV is made up of many individual cells to provide higher voltages. An iPhone can run on 3 or 4 volts, but a Tesla cannot.
- christkv 5y agoHow many charge cycles would it last. A battery close to energy density of lithium ion batteries but with nearly unlimited charge cycles would be an instant buy for me
- clouddrover 5y agoOver 2000 cycles with no degradation: https://finance.yahoo.com/finance/news/gmg-graphene-aluminium-ion-battery-200435268.html https://finance.yahoo.com/finance/news/gmg-graphene-aluminiu...
- qayxc 5y agoWhile the research itself sound promising, the article leaves a lot to be desired. The use of units and their notation is horrendous, almost as if the author doesn't know even the first thing about SI units and their use: > 197 mAh g−1 > 10 gigaWatt to 50gW plants I'm sorry, but nonsense like that detracts from the trustworthiness of the content. The title is also a bit click-baity - so far they're working with coin cells and statements like > It charges an iPhone coin cell in less than 10 seconds. are highly misleading. What does that even mean? An iPhone doesn't contain coin cells. Another irritating statements follows immediately after: > The new battery cells are claimed to deliver far more energy density than current lithium-ion batteries, without the cooling, heating or rare-earth problems they face. According to them, their cells achieve 160 Wh/kg. That doesn't add up at all. A mainstream APN 616-0809 Li-Ion battery pack (iPhone 6) has a capacity of 1810 mAh @ 3.8V and weighs ~45.5 g, e.g. ~150 Wh/kg. So their current cells are no better than current Li-Ion batteries, but only just match them. I mean, heck, a Tesla Powerwall - a fully integrated, plug-and-play unit - comes in at 114 Wh/kg (13.5 kWh @ 114 kg) [0]. If they have a product with unique selling points (no rare earths required, much faster to charge, safer), why make claims that are demonstrably false? Little things like that make the whole announcement sound fishy and I can't tell whether it's the author or the researchers who messed up there. I mean, seriously, the COTS Panasonic NCR18650B cell has an energy density of 252 Wh/kg [1] so even with cooling/heating elements a battery pack would have a higher energy density (by mass) than their product. Something just doesn't add up in this piece. [0] https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/powerwall/Powerwall_2_AC_Datasheet_EN_NA.pdf https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/powerwall/Pow... [1] https://www.batteryjunction.com/panasonic-ncr18650b-3400.html https://www.batteryjunction.com/panasonic-ncr18650b-3400.htm...
- altcognito 5y agoYeah, I think the article misleads that these are close to parity with Li batteries not exceeding, if not slightly trailing in density. Other articles on the same batteries with quotes directly from the researchers are more clear about it.
- bagacrap 5y agoit seems the claim about greater energy density in a vehicle sized battery is to do with saving on the cooling circuitry (20% of the battery as per the article).
- jacquesm 5y agoPlanned roll-out in 2024? Ok. Who wants to take that bet?
- altcognito 5y agoRollout expected this year for button cells, automotive cell pouches by 2024. But yeah, realistically, even if they hit the release date of 2024, it might be 2027 before the public is generally aware that the technology is switching. Sell it 2024, get it in prototypes 2025, build it in 2026? Even that seems optimistic.
- jsight 5y agoIts a general problem with "revolutionary" breakthroughs with batteries. Its not that they are bad at all, but the most promising ones have timeframes that move them back into incremental enhancement. The good news, though? EVs will be at least twice as good in 2030 as they are today.
- blisterpeanuts 5y agoHow easy will this thing be to mass manufacture? The batteries "use nanotechnology to insert aluminum atoms inside tiny perforations in graphene planes", which sounds like pretty sophisticated processing. That said, nearly everything else sounds very promising... just like all the other extremely promising battery R&D press releases. Let's hope this one's for real.
- kahrl 5y agoIt's as real as the iPhone coin cell batteries they say they can charge in just seconds.
- meepmorp 5y agoInteresting thing from another article on the company: > GMG is an Australian-based clean-tech disruptive company listed on the TSXV (TSXV:GMG) that produces graphene and hydrogen by cracking methane (natural gas) instead of mining graphite I wonder about the long term environmental impact of a technology that - at present - depends on continued fossil fuel extraction. https://finance.yahoo.com/finance/news/gmg-graphene-aluminium-ion-battery-200435268.html https://finance.yahoo.com/finance/news/gmg-graphene-aluminiu...
- Scoundreller 5y agoAnd it’s not like we’re running low on graphite deposits. You need a lot of gas to make a bit of solid. But maybe the process is better than direct combustion if you’re still able to use the process heat for something like district heating. Better to get the carbon sequestered in graphite instead of CO2.
- boringg 5y ago"clean-tech" now is climate tech (Being a cleantech vet). And if you are converting graphene and hydrogen from NG you aren't climate tech - at best transitional technology, at worst enabling fossil fuels.
- CalChris 5y agoAluminum is the third most abundant element after oxygen and silicon in the earth's crust. Lithium is the 25th most abundant element. Early days, but that might bring cost down.
- boringg 5y agoI will note I'm glad we don't get as many battery breakthrough hype articles on hackernews -- reddit is littered with them. It seems that the rate at which they are coming through is much lower (maybe hype around storage is dying off a bit?). If feels like only production ready tech with that will really change the dynamics of the market should make their way through - almost none of them are ever going to make it to market and I don't feel like I am any better for knowing about all of them.
- bglusman 5y agoThis looks like related research from more reputable source, can anyone knowledgeable comment on relationship/validity? https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-21108-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-21108-4
- grishka 5y ago---------------------------------------------------------------- Dear battery technology claimant, Thank you for your submission of proposed new revolutionary battery technology. Your new technology claims to be superior to existing lithium-ion technology and is just around the corner from taking over the world. Unfortunately your technology will likely fail, because: [ ] it is impractical to manufacture at scale. [ ] it will be too expensive for users. [ ] it suffers from too few recharge cycles. [ ] it is incapable of delivering current at sufficient levels. [ ] it lacks thermal stability at low or high temperatures. [ ] it lacks the energy density to make it sufficiently portable. [ ] it has too short of a lifetime. [ ] its charge rate is too slow. [ ] its materials are too toxic. [ ] it is too likely to catch fire or explode. [ ] it is too minimal of a step forward for anybody to care. [ ] this was already done 20 years ago and didn't work then. [ ] by this time it ships li-ion advances will match it. [ ] your claims are lies. ----------------------------------------------------------------
- rkangel 5y agoIs the lack of check-marks here your suggestion that this is actually something of significance? That was my (cautious) reading. Assuming that it doesn't fall foul of the last one "your claims are lies" it seems to be a step change in performance that's in early production and has a reasonable path to actual production.
- antisthenes 5y agoThe lack of check-marks is because it's a blank form to be printed out and filled, before handing it over to sensationalist news websites.
- DaiPlusPlus 5y agoI remember this meme format from Slashdot comments back in 2002ish for anti-spam solutions - its not meant to be printed out - the OP simply forgot to fill the relevant checkboxes for this particular news story.
- stevenalowe 5y agocool but "coin-cell validation batteries" are a long way from "EV Range Breakthrough"
- carapace 5y agoKind of a tangent, but I recently found out how much of a PITA EVs are when they wreck. Unlike gas tanks, batteries can start fires or even explode days after a wreck. I suspect that alcohol fuel produced by carbon-neutral methods makes more sense for (hybrid electric motor) vehicles than batteries when you factor in the environmental costs of production and disposal.
- jfengel 5y agoNaive question: are the batteries themselves really the limiting factor at this point? The fastest chargers seem to be in the 250kW range. That's a lot (on par with a loaded tractor-trailer moving at highway speed), requiring sophisticated cooling of the chargers themselves, and complaints that the cables are too heavy for some people. If we could charge 60x faster, would it be feasible to hook up a 10 megawatt cable to it? That's literally the power output of a small country.
- some_random 5y agoThis is the epitome of "big if true"
- nikolay 5y agoWhat's happened with the interchangeable fuel-cell batteries, which 15-or-so years ago were said to be able to power laptops, smartphones, and all kinds of devices, and replaced empty-for-full at convenience stores for pennies a piece?