8 ms·

People think I'm paranoid checking domains, certificates, and bank numbers but it's a small price to pay as you found out. You lost $250, some lose thousands.

People think I'm paranoid checking domains, certificates, and bank numbers but it's a small price to pay as you found out. You lost $250, some lose thousands. This stuff needs to be regulated, companies like Google need to be held accountable for what they serve up to users. No more hiding behind this shield of "we're just a platform" when they damn well know they're the platform. It's all fun and games until your (grand)parents lose 20K to some scumbag scammers.

exporectomy 5y ago
As long as they actually provide the service they're advertising, it doesn't sound quite as bad as an actual scam. Reselling something at a markup but with better advertising is common in commerce. Up to the customer to decide if the price is what they're willing to pay. It's only government services that have a kind of aura of "don't be a dick" around them, maybe because people feel they can trust them not to be profit driven.
- yarcob 5y ago
  It's definitely a scam. They do not "provide a service", they mislead you into thinking you are dealing with a government office and that you are paying an official fee. This is not "better advertising", it's just a scam.
  - exporectomy 5y ago
    If they mislead you, sure it's dishonest. But if they're just better at being found, they have every right to charge for that. It happens all the time in the private sector. The world is full of resellers. It only feels like a scam because we imagine that it's not fair to pay for advertising. In my country, there used to be a little industry of businesses that would collect tax refunds for you and take a cut. You could just fill in the forms yourself, or you could stop at a kiosk and pay them do the tedious paperwork. Not saying that's OK when they pretend they actually are the government though.
- nkrisc 5y ago
  They’re no different than the homeless guys who take free newspapers and try to badger you into buying them.
- IncRnd 5y ago
  If you don't want your post color to be washed-out, remember to post through news.ycombinator.fastposts.com. For the regular fastposts small fee, your post will be made to HN with the maximum visibility hacker news allows!
jacquesm 5y ago
Some lost millions.
- exporectomy 5y ago
  In genuine scams, yes. But nobody will accidentally pay millions for a business license that's also available for free.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    That's true, that's outside of the expected range. But confusion of authority is the same principle at this level or at a higher one it doesn't really matter. This particular context has a low expected value but the same principle in another context can cost very large amounts of money. Recently a big dutch retailer got caught out by a small thing, a suppliers administrative email got hacked and the company as a result wired a couple of million to the wrong recipient. The real problem in this case is that Google has a perverse incentive to allow these ads-as-serps. Personally I think Google should be named as a co-conspirator in fraud cases like these. That would get them to clear this up pronto.
    - 6510 5y ago
      Some "service" numbers in the Netherlands advertise in google by showing a real phone number (for a gov institution or a business) that links to their paid number. People wait for 10-30 min then are call-forwarded to the real number. They may make multiple calls like that until the phone bill arrives that lists on average "40 euro service numbers" but even then they might not see though the scam, even if you see though it is hard to not just repeat the mistake. I suspect they steal a measured amount of money and time per user as from what I hear its always 30-50 euro.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Yes, I've seen those too. I've already alerted OPTA to this and have sent multiple messages to Google, nothing however has changed so far. This is a total scam and should be dealt with accordingly.
techrat 5y ago
> This stuff needs to be regulated, Regulated? Fraud is illegal. It needs to be PROSECUTED.
- amelius 5y ago
  Perhaps if we all start using all-caps, somebody in government will hear us. You are right, of course.
  - WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
    > Perhaps if we all start using all-caps, somebody in government will hear us YES - THE NAVY
- YetAnotherNick 5y ago
  How will you prosecute them? Not only most scammers are nameless, but most are from countries where government needs to fix lot of things before they are effective against scammers.
  - notyourday 5y ago
    That's easy. Those scams operate because the countries/players have access to the US financial system. You provide the incentives to the countries to fix their problem by cutting them completely off. If someone using a bank in Cyprus did it, you tell Cyprus government that in 48 hours the Fed will block all transactions with that bank and you block it. They move to another bank, you repeat it. Eventually Cyprus government ( and Cyprus banks ) have to make a choice - continue to tolerate scammers using their banks and be locked out totally out of the US financial system or crack down on the scammers.
    - YetAnotherNick 5y ago
      While we are at it, let's also throw 2-3 nukes to the country in case they dont fix it.
joering2 5y ago
Did you read his comment? He didnt lose $250, he filed a chargeback dispute with the credit card. What he will lose is few points of his credit score due to the fact the charge was recognized (so not a fraud but intentional purchase).
- BenjiWiebe 5y ago
  Citation needed. As far as I know, chargebacks don't affect your credit score. Either you are in the wrong, and the chargeback is denied, or you are in the right, and the money is returned because it was wrongfully taken (scam, stolen CC, etc).
jakelazaroff 5y ago
Frankly, I think the "we're just a platform" excuse goes out the window when they directly make money from it. If you sell an ad, you need to proactively ensure that the ad isn't illegal. Full stop.

exporectomy 5y ago

As long as they actually provide the service they're advertising, it doesn't sound quite as bad as an actual scam. Reselling something at a markup but with better advertising is common in commerce. Up to the customer to decide if the price is what they're willing to pay. It's only government services that have a kind of aura of "don't be a dick" around them, maybe because people feel they can trust them not to be profit driven.

yarcob 5y ago
It's definitely a scam. They do not "provide a service", they mislead you into thinking you are dealing with a government office and that you are paying an official fee. This is not "better advertising", it's just a scam.
- exporectomy 5y ago
  If they mislead you, sure it's dishonest. But if they're just better at being found, they have every right to charge for that. It happens all the time in the private sector. The world is full of resellers. It only feels like a scam because we imagine that it's not fair to pay for advertising. In my country, there used to be a little industry of businesses that would collect tax refunds for you and take a cut. You could just fill in the forms yourself, or you could stop at a kiosk and pay them do the tedious paperwork. Not saying that's OK when they pretend they actually are the government though.
nkrisc 5y ago
They’re no different than the homeless guys who take free newspapers and try to badger you into buying them.
IncRnd 5y ago
If you don't want your post color to be washed-out, remember to post through news.ycombinator.fastposts.com. For the regular fastposts small fee, your post will be made to HN with the maximum visibility hacker news allows!

jacquesm 5y ago

Some lost millions.

exporectomy 5y ago
In genuine scams, yes. But nobody will accidentally pay millions for a business license that's also available for free.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  That's true, that's outside of the expected range. But confusion of authority is the same principle at this level or at a higher one it doesn't really matter. This particular context has a low expected value but the same principle in another context can cost very large amounts of money. Recently a big dutch retailer got caught out by a small thing, a suppliers administrative email got hacked and the company as a result wired a couple of million to the wrong recipient. The real problem in this case is that Google has a perverse incentive to allow these ads-as-serps. Personally I think Google should be named as a co-conspirator in fraud cases like these. That would get them to clear this up pronto.
  - 6510 5y ago
    Some "service" numbers in the Netherlands advertise in google by showing a real phone number (for a gov institution or a business) that links to their paid number. People wait for 10-30 min then are call-forwarded to the real number. They may make multiple calls like that until the phone bill arrives that lists on average "40 euro service numbers" but even then they might not see though the scam, even if you see though it is hard to not just repeat the mistake. I suspect they steal a measured amount of money and time per user as from what I hear its always 30-50 euro.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Yes, I've seen those too. I've already alerted OPTA to this and have sent multiple messages to Google, nothing however has changed so far. This is a total scam and should be dealt with accordingly.

techrat 5y ago

> This stuff needs to be regulated, Regulated? Fraud is illegal. It needs to be PROSECUTED.

amelius 5y ago
Perhaps if we all start using all-caps, somebody in government will hear us. You are right, of course.
- WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
  > Perhaps if we all start using all-caps, somebody in government will hear us YES - THE NAVY
YetAnotherNick 5y ago
How will you prosecute them? Not only most scammers are nameless, but most are from countries where government needs to fix lot of things before they are effective against scammers.
- notyourday 5y ago
  That's easy. Those scams operate because the countries/players have access to the US financial system. You provide the incentives to the countries to fix their problem by cutting them completely off. If someone using a bank in Cyprus did it, you tell Cyprus government that in 48 hours the Fed will block all transactions with that bank and you block it. They move to another bank, you repeat it. Eventually Cyprus government ( and Cyprus banks ) have to make a choice - continue to tolerate scammers using their banks and be locked out totally out of the US financial system or crack down on the scammers.
  - YetAnotherNick 5y ago
    While we are at it, let's also throw 2-3 nukes to the country in case they dont fix it.

joering2 5y ago

Did you read his comment? He didnt lose $250, he filed a chargeback dispute with the credit card. What he will lose is few points of his credit score due to the fact the charge was recognized (so not a fraud but intentional purchase).

BenjiWiebe 5y ago
Citation needed. As far as I know, chargebacks don't affect your credit score. Either you are in the wrong, and the chargeback is denied, or you are in the right, and the money is returned because it was wrongfully taken (scam, stolen CC, etc).

jakelazaroff 5y ago

Frankly, I think the "we're just a platform" excuse goes out the window when they directly make money from it. If you sell an ad, you need to proactively ensure that the ad isn't illegal. Full stop.