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I fell prey to this. Might have been the exact same website, too. Had had a drink with dinner, thought heck why not file for my EIN for an independent consultin

I fell prey to this. Might have been the exact same website, too. Had had a drink with dinner, thought heck why not file for my EIN for an independent consulting LLC I was creating? Was using a fresh OS install where I hadn't yet installed Firefox with an adblocker. Usual defenses were weakened. Boom, $250 down the drain before I really thought it all through. Fortunately I was able to get it refunded by initiating a chargeback and telling their website support that I believed they were misrepresenting themselves as the IRS. It really was a "welcome to the real world" moment, though - my very first act as a new business in the US was to get scammed. This theme has continued. 90% of the business mail I get are scams masquerading as official government mail to get business licenses or whatever. These websites are run by scumbags who should all be arrested. And Google, of course, should pay actual penalties because it's been all upside for them.

FriedrichN 5y ago
People think I'm paranoid checking domains, certificates, and bank numbers but it's a small price to pay as you found out. You lost $250, some lose thousands. This stuff needs to be regulated, companies like Google need to be held accountable for what they serve up to users. No more hiding behind this shield of "we're just a platform" when they damn well know they're the platform. It's all fun and games until your (grand)parents lose 20K to some scumbag scammers.
- exporectomy 5y ago
  As long as they actually provide the service they're advertising, it doesn't sound quite as bad as an actual scam. Reselling something at a markup but with better advertising is common in commerce. Up to the customer to decide if the price is what they're willing to pay. It's only government services that have a kind of aura of "don't be a dick" around them, maybe because people feel they can trust them not to be profit driven.
  - yarcob 5y ago
    It's definitely a scam. They do not "provide a service", they mislead you into thinking you are dealing with a government office and that you are paying an official fee. This is not "better advertising", it's just a scam.
    - exporectomy 5y ago
      If they mislead you, sure it's dishonest. But if they're just better at being found, they have every right to charge for that. It happens all the time in the private sector. The world is full of resellers. It only feels like a scam because we imagine that it's not fair to pay for advertising. In my country, there used to be a little industry of businesses that would collect tax refunds for you and take a cut. You could just fill in the forms yourself, or you could stop at a kiosk and pay them do the tedious paperwork. Not saying that's OK when they pretend they actually are the government though.
  - nkrisc 5y ago
    They’re no different than the homeless guys who take free newspapers and try to badger you into buying them.
  - IncRnd 5y ago
    If you don't want your post color to be washed-out, remember to post through news.ycombinator.fastposts.com. For the regular fastposts small fee, your post will be made to HN with the maximum visibility hacker news allows!
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Some lost millions.
  - exporectomy 5y ago
    In genuine scams, yes. But nobody will accidentally pay millions for a business license that's also available for free.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      That's true, that's outside of the expected range. But confusion of authority is the same principle at this level or at a higher one it doesn't really matter. This particular context has a low expected value but the same principle in another context can cost very large amounts of money. Recently a big dutch retailer got caught out by a small thing, a suppliers administrative email got hacked and the company as a result wired a couple of million to the wrong recipient. The real problem in this case is that Google has a perverse incentive to allow these ads-as-serps. Personally I think Google should be named as a co-conspirator in fraud cases like these. That would get them to clear this up pronto.
      - 6510 5y ago
        Some "service" numbers in the Netherlands advertise in google by showing a real phone number (for a gov institution or a business) that links to their paid number. People wait for 10-30 min then are call-forwarded to the real number. They may make multiple calls like that until the phone bill arrives that lists on average "40 euro service numbers" but even then they might not see though the scam, even if you see though it is hard to not just repeat the mistake. I suspect they steal a measured amount of money and time per user as from what I hear its always 30-50 euro.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Yes, I've seen those too. I've already alerted OPTA to this and have sent multiple messages to Google, nothing however has changed so far. This is a total scam and should be dealt with accordingly.
- techrat 5y ago
  > This stuff needs to be regulated, Regulated? Fraud is illegal. It needs to be PROSECUTED.
  - amelius 5y ago
    Perhaps if we all start using all-caps, somebody in government will hear us. You are right, of course.
    - WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
      > Perhaps if we all start using all-caps, somebody in government will hear us YES - THE NAVY
  - YetAnotherNick 5y ago
    How will you prosecute them? Not only most scammers are nameless, but most are from countries where government needs to fix lot of things before they are effective against scammers.
    - notyourday 5y ago
      That's easy. Those scams operate because the countries/players have access to the US financial system. You provide the incentives to the countries to fix their problem by cutting them completely off. If someone using a bank in Cyprus did it, you tell Cyprus government that in 48 hours the Fed will block all transactions with that bank and you block it. They move to another bank, you repeat it. Eventually Cyprus government ( and Cyprus banks ) have to make a choice - continue to tolerate scammers using their banks and be locked out totally out of the US financial system or crack down on the scammers.
      - YetAnotherNick 5y ago
        While we are at it, let's also throw 2-3 nukes to the country in case they dont fix it.
- joering2 5y ago
  Did you read his comment? He didnt lose $250, he filed a chargeback dispute with the credit card. What he will lose is few points of his credit score due to the fact the charge was recognized (so not a fraud but intentional purchase).
  - BenjiWiebe 5y ago
    Citation needed. As far as I know, chargebacks don't affect your credit score. Either you are in the wrong, and the chargeback is denied, or you are in the right, and the money is returned because it was wrongfully taken (scam, stolen CC, etc).
- jakelazaroff 5y ago
  Frankly, I think the "we're just a platform" excuse goes out the window when they directly make money from it. If you sell an ad, you need to proactively ensure that the ad isn't illegal. Full stop.
ad404b8a372f2b9 5y ago
Another common one for new LLCs is threatening, official looking letters telling you you need a workplace safety poster or you will go to jail/pay monstrous fines. The law is real but only applies in very specific circumstances and the letters come from companies graciously offering to sell you overpriced posters. It freaked the hell out of my partner when we got that, had to explain to her at 3AM that we weren't going to lose our business over a poster. That kind of stuff really rattles your bones when you've got so much going on already with a new business.
- ahelwer 5y ago
  Oh yes I got that one! It really does work as a sort of DDOS attack against new businesses, you're trying to get all this stuff sorted out and the scammers know how easy it is to sneak in one more form to be filled out & fee paid.
- ocdtrekkie 5y ago
  What really stunned me was that in our state, the official website even has a statement letting you know about these fraudsters... but apparently they can't actually shut them down or stop them from mailing every new LLC? It's incredible how ill equipped we are to shut down scammers who have a nice downtown Chicago Loop address.
aidos 5y ago
It’s rough out there. Was helping a friend of a friend last night who had been scammed into giving out her Instagram password. They’ve change the email / phone / pw on the account. In her case the account is actually a substantial business (art) portfolio with a lot of followers. Naturally, after a little digging, I discovered that her email was using the same pw and had also been compromised (hackers deleted the emails from Instagram about the email address change). As ever, the main issue is that getting through to Instagram to get any real help seems impossible. Which sucks, because surely changing all the details on an Instagram account should flag something on their side.
- raister 5y ago
  You usually login in the West Coast, then, all of a sudden, you started login in the East Coast -- hey, GOOGLE, FACEBOOK, isn't that ODD????????????????? I can't believe they act as they don't know what's going on and have no means to deter this. They SHOULD BE LIABLE!
  - jimktrains2 5y ago
    No, that isn't really odd. People travel. Should my account be locked everytime I visit family? I permanently lost access to may aim account a while back because I tried to connect while traveling out of country.
    - raister 5y ago
      The key point here is that it's impossible to travel long distances in a short amount of time... Of course people travel. What's not normal is to log in in Miami and in the next minute log in Seattle....
      - saddlerustle 5y ago
        VPNs are pretty mainstream these days. If you talk to anyone working on anti-abuse you'd find the answer to most "Why don't you just.." ideas is because it'd impact many orders of magnitude more legitimate users than victims.
fortran77 5y ago
I had a similar experience but I knew to stop when they asked for payment. I'm well aware that EINs are free, having had about half-a-dozen of them for various businesses. I googled something like IRS EIN and clicked the link. I saw a page that looked exactly like the IRS EIN page as I remembered it. I filled out my information. When I clicked submit, I saw a payment page. It was only then I realized I had been duped and looked at the domain.

FriedrichN 5y ago

People think I'm paranoid checking domains, certificates, and bank numbers but it's a small price to pay as you found out. You lost $250, some lose thousands. This stuff needs to be regulated, companies like Google need to be held accountable for what they serve up to users. No more hiding behind this shield of "we're just a platform" when they damn well know they're the platform. It's all fun and games until your (grand)parents lose 20K to some scumbag scammers.

exporectomy 5y ago
As long as they actually provide the service they're advertising, it doesn't sound quite as bad as an actual scam. Reselling something at a markup but with better advertising is common in commerce. Up to the customer to decide if the price is what they're willing to pay. It's only government services that have a kind of aura of "don't be a dick" around them, maybe because people feel they can trust them not to be profit driven.
- yarcob 5y ago
  It's definitely a scam. They do not "provide a service", they mislead you into thinking you are dealing with a government office and that you are paying an official fee. This is not "better advertising", it's just a scam.
  - exporectomy 5y ago
    If they mislead you, sure it's dishonest. But if they're just better at being found, they have every right to charge for that. It happens all the time in the private sector. The world is full of resellers. It only feels like a scam because we imagine that it's not fair to pay for advertising. In my country, there used to be a little industry of businesses that would collect tax refunds for you and take a cut. You could just fill in the forms yourself, or you could stop at a kiosk and pay them do the tedious paperwork. Not saying that's OK when they pretend they actually are the government though.
- nkrisc 5y ago
  They’re no different than the homeless guys who take free newspapers and try to badger you into buying them.
- IncRnd 5y ago
  If you don't want your post color to be washed-out, remember to post through news.ycombinator.fastposts.com. For the regular fastposts small fee, your post will be made to HN with the maximum visibility hacker news allows!
jacquesm 5y ago
Some lost millions.
- exporectomy 5y ago
  In genuine scams, yes. But nobody will accidentally pay millions for a business license that's also available for free.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    That's true, that's outside of the expected range. But confusion of authority is the same principle at this level or at a higher one it doesn't really matter. This particular context has a low expected value but the same principle in another context can cost very large amounts of money. Recently a big dutch retailer got caught out by a small thing, a suppliers administrative email got hacked and the company as a result wired a couple of million to the wrong recipient. The real problem in this case is that Google has a perverse incentive to allow these ads-as-serps. Personally I think Google should be named as a co-conspirator in fraud cases like these. That would get them to clear this up pronto.
    - 6510 5y ago
      Some "service" numbers in the Netherlands advertise in google by showing a real phone number (for a gov institution or a business) that links to their paid number. People wait for 10-30 min then are call-forwarded to the real number. They may make multiple calls like that until the phone bill arrives that lists on average "40 euro service numbers" but even then they might not see though the scam, even if you see though it is hard to not just repeat the mistake. I suspect they steal a measured amount of money and time per user as from what I hear its always 30-50 euro.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Yes, I've seen those too. I've already alerted OPTA to this and have sent multiple messages to Google, nothing however has changed so far. This is a total scam and should be dealt with accordingly.
techrat 5y ago
> This stuff needs to be regulated, Regulated? Fraud is illegal. It needs to be PROSECUTED.
- amelius 5y ago
  Perhaps if we all start using all-caps, somebody in government will hear us. You are right, of course.
  - WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
    > Perhaps if we all start using all-caps, somebody in government will hear us YES - THE NAVY
- YetAnotherNick 5y ago
  How will you prosecute them? Not only most scammers are nameless, but most are from countries where government needs to fix lot of things before they are effective against scammers.
  - notyourday 5y ago
    That's easy. Those scams operate because the countries/players have access to the US financial system. You provide the incentives to the countries to fix their problem by cutting them completely off. If someone using a bank in Cyprus did it, you tell Cyprus government that in 48 hours the Fed will block all transactions with that bank and you block it. They move to another bank, you repeat it. Eventually Cyprus government ( and Cyprus banks ) have to make a choice - continue to tolerate scammers using their banks and be locked out totally out of the US financial system or crack down on the scammers.
    - YetAnotherNick 5y ago
      While we are at it, let's also throw 2-3 nukes to the country in case they dont fix it.
joering2 5y ago
Did you read his comment? He didnt lose $250, he filed a chargeback dispute with the credit card. What he will lose is few points of his credit score due to the fact the charge was recognized (so not a fraud but intentional purchase).
- BenjiWiebe 5y ago
  Citation needed. As far as I know, chargebacks don't affect your credit score. Either you are in the wrong, and the chargeback is denied, or you are in the right, and the money is returned because it was wrongfully taken (scam, stolen CC, etc).
jakelazaroff 5y ago
Frankly, I think the "we're just a platform" excuse goes out the window when they directly make money from it. If you sell an ad, you need to proactively ensure that the ad isn't illegal. Full stop.

ad404b8a372f2b9 5y ago

Another common one for new LLCs is threatening, official looking letters telling you you need a workplace safety poster or you will go to jail/pay monstrous fines. The law is real but only applies in very specific circumstances and the letters come from companies graciously offering to sell you overpriced posters. It freaked the hell out of my partner when we got that, had to explain to her at 3AM that we weren't going to lose our business over a poster. That kind of stuff really rattles your bones when you've got so much going on already with a new business.

ahelwer 5y ago
Oh yes I got that one! It really does work as a sort of DDOS attack against new businesses, you're trying to get all this stuff sorted out and the scammers know how easy it is to sneak in one more form to be filled out & fee paid.
ocdtrekkie 5y ago
What really stunned me was that in our state, the official website even has a statement letting you know about these fraudsters... but apparently they can't actually shut them down or stop them from mailing every new LLC? It's incredible how ill equipped we are to shut down scammers who have a nice downtown Chicago Loop address.

aidos 5y ago

It’s rough out there. Was helping a friend of a friend last night who had been scammed into giving out her Instagram password. They’ve change the email / phone / pw on the account. In her case the account is actually a substantial business (art) portfolio with a lot of followers. Naturally, after a little digging, I discovered that her email was using the same pw and had also been compromised (hackers deleted the emails from Instagram about the email address change). As ever, the main issue is that getting through to Instagram to get any real help seems impossible. Which sucks, because surely changing all the details on an Instagram account should flag something on their side.

raister 5y ago
You usually login in the West Coast, then, all of a sudden, you started login in the East Coast -- hey, GOOGLE, FACEBOOK, isn't that ODD????????????????? I can't believe they act as they don't know what's going on and have no means to deter this. They SHOULD BE LIABLE!
- jimktrains2 5y ago
  No, that isn't really odd. People travel. Should my account be locked everytime I visit family? I permanently lost access to may aim account a while back because I tried to connect while traveling out of country.
  - raister 5y ago
    The key point here is that it's impossible to travel long distances in a short amount of time... Of course people travel. What's not normal is to log in in Miami and in the next minute log in Seattle....
    - saddlerustle 5y ago
      VPNs are pretty mainstream these days. If you talk to anyone working on anti-abuse you'd find the answer to most "Why don't you just.." ideas is because it'd impact many orders of magnitude more legitimate users than victims.

fortran77 5y ago

I had a similar experience but I knew to stop when they asked for payment. I'm well aware that EINs are free, having had about half-a-dozen of them for various businesses. I googled something like IRS EIN and clicked the link. I saw a page that looked exactly like the IRS EIN page as I remembered it. I filled out my information. When I clicked submit, I saw a payment page. It was only then I realized I had been duped and looked at the domain.