6 ms·

Vaccines still aren't 100%. This is bad advice from the CDC. It will only lead to anti-masker/vaxxers using this as an excuse for not wearing a mask. Even the f

by sacomo 5y ago

Vaccines still aren't 100%. This is bad advice from the CDC. It will only lead to anti-masker/vaxxers using this as an excuse for not wearing a mask. Even the fully vaccinated should be wearing a mask around other people. 94%/97% is not 100%. edit: Japan is a good example for how masks have drastically reduced the number of infected due to mask culture. Japan has half the US population and still isn't vaccinating the general public. Even the spikes in Japan are tiny compared to the US due to mask usage. Japan is mostly open, trains are still packed, shops are still filled with people. Masks work and should still be worn once vaccinated. edit 2: good luck.

scotuswroteus 5y ago
The average person can expect to be in three to four car accidents during their lifetime. I'm still driving around (vaxxed, not belligerent, happy to mask for the time being).
- sacomo 5y ago
  That is great. But still, vaccinated people shouldn't be told that they cannot get infected. There is this weird misconception floating around that just because we get vaccinated we are somehow immune to covid-19. That is a dangerous and misguided belief.
  - infamouscow 5y ago
    I thought was actually mattered was hospitalizations and deaths. Why is measuring infections relevant?
    - unanswered 5y ago
      According to the public perception, getting COVID is a death sentence. That's all there is to it.
    - sacomo 5y ago
      The primary goal is to not contract covid-19.
      - weezin 5y ago
        So what is an appropriate amount of cases to go back to normal?
        sacomo 5y ago
        Personally I will keep wearing a mask around other people until we eradicate it or find a 100% preventive vaccine. So decades for me.
        nradov 5y ago
        Were you wearing a mask in 2019? Because influenza killed thousands of people that year, and we didn't have a 100% preventative vaccine.
        sacomo 5y ago
        https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30577-4/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2...
        mikem170 5y ago
        Are you saying that you don't want to take any risk of dying of covid, but your odds of dying of the flu don't bother you?
        sacomo 5y ago
        Yes
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - KoftaBob 5y ago
    The CDC, FDA, governments, etc have said constantly that the vaccines have a 90-95% efficacy rate. Anyone who somehow interpreted that as "completely immune" has bad reading comprehension. This sounds like a strawman argument that you're making, I don't know where you're getting that there's a misconception of the vaccine equating to 100% immunity. No one said that.
    - jfengel 5y ago
      Right now the primary question is about the comprehension, or lack of same, on the part of anti-vaxers. The actual truth about infections is almost completely irrelevant here. The question is, what tactic will keep us all safest when the primary threat comes from people who are clinically stupid? That's purely a psychology question, and I honestly don't know what the answer is. But it's worth noting that it's pretty much all about strawmen, and which strawmen the anti-vax crowd can be manipulated into believing.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - tehlike 5y ago
      You might find this more useful: https://www.timesofisrael.com/of-fully-vaccinated-israelis-only-0-2-develop-covid-19-symptoms/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/of-fully-vaccinated-israelis-o...
    - caddemon 5y ago
      J&J definitely does not have >90% efficacy
infamouscow 5y ago
Nothing is 100% certain. If you don't want to risk it then stay at home.
- jes 5y ago
  Nothing is 100% certain. I don't think this is true in all cases.
- gsich 5y ago
  Death is.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    No it isn't. Enoch and Elijah never died.
    - krapp 5y ago
      Enoch and Elijah are fictional characters. In reality, death is 100% certain.
KoftaBob 5y ago
The point was to get the risk/velocity of spread to a much smaller and manageable amount. Anything after that, if it's still too much risk for someone because they're only comfortable with 100% certainty, they can choose to stay at home. We're not going to keep society on hold until we reach 100% eradication of a virus, just to appease neurotic people.
remarkEon 5y ago
No. The continual insistence by some - many in prominent leadership positions - that nothing changes after you get vaccinated is what was hurting confidence that the vaccine works. If it works, why would I have to act like it doesn't? People can make their own judgements about their personal risk, but I'm not waiting until some arbitrary effectivity point (99%? 99.9%? 99.99%?) to go back to normal. I'll be in the gym tonight for 2 hours without a mask for the first time in well over a year.
- sacomo 5y ago
  Cool
- shados 5y ago
  > If it works, why would I have to act like it doesn't? This vaccine is -ridiculously- effective, which definitely changed things a bit (well, a lot). It looks like people who have it are pretty much immune, the chances of transmitting even if you DO get the virus is extremely low, etc. We're lucky. It could have gone a very different way though. If we had a vaccine that's much less effective (eg: like the flu's), we'd have to rely on the power of statistics at scale to get rid of the pandemic. So yeah, that would have meant you'd have to get vaccine and still act like you haven't for a while until more people take it. Thank <whatever deity> things turned out better though, since its pretty obvious that people wouldn't have been able to comprehend that scenario.
- dlp211 5y ago
  When they made those statements, it was nothing changes for now. We were always going to get to this point where enough people became vaccinated and others had enough of a natural immunity that we would start to open up, take off the masks, and get to normal. You couldn't do that when 10% of people had the vaccine dose. Did people really think that the government was going to forever make people where masks and to social distance and all the other measures?
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    Even if only one person in the world were vaccinated, why should that one person not get to stop wearing a mask and social distancing?
kelnos 5y ago
Vouched for your (dead) comment because I think it has value in the discussion, even though I think you're missing the whole picture. Unfortunately the US political and social climate means this CDC advice has to come now, not later, when it'll probably be more scientifically appropriate. Demand for vaccines has been dropping for weeks, and vaccine-hesitant people need to see that there are clear benefits to their day-to-day lives if they get vaccinated. Vaccines are definitely not 100%, but I think the hope is that relaxing restrictions for vaccinated people will increase demand for the vaccine enough to be worth the risk. While this recommendation may not be good science, I suspect it's good public policy, given that we are all a bunch of emotional humans who don't always do what's best for ourselves when presented only with logic. There are commenters in other subthreads here who have said that this news made them go and sign up for a vaccine appointment. So it is having the desired effect. We'll see if it has enough of the desired effect.

by sacomo 5y ago

scotuswroteus 5y ago

The average person can expect to be in three to four car accidents during their lifetime. I'm still driving around (vaxxed, not belligerent, happy to mask for the time being).

sacomo 5y ago
That is great. But still, vaccinated people shouldn't be told that they cannot get infected. There is this weird misconception floating around that just because we get vaccinated we are somehow immune to covid-19. That is a dangerous and misguided belief.
- infamouscow 5y ago
  I thought was actually mattered was hospitalizations and deaths. Why is measuring infections relevant?
  - unanswered 5y ago
    According to the public perception, getting COVID is a death sentence. That's all there is to it.
  - sacomo 5y ago
    The primary goal is to not contract covid-19.
    - weezin 5y ago
      So what is an appropriate amount of cases to go back to normal?
      - sacomo 5y ago
        Personally I will keep wearing a mask around other people until we eradicate it or find a 100% preventive vaccine. So decades for me.
        nradov 5y ago
        Were you wearing a mask in 2019? Because influenza killed thousands of people that year, and we didn't have a 100% preventative vaccine.
        sacomo 5y ago
        https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30577-4/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2...
        mikem170 5y ago
        Are you saying that you don't want to take any risk of dying of covid, but your odds of dying of the flu don't bother you?
        sacomo 5y ago
        Yes
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- KoftaBob 5y ago
  The CDC, FDA, governments, etc have said constantly that the vaccines have a 90-95% efficacy rate. Anyone who somehow interpreted that as "completely immune" has bad reading comprehension. This sounds like a strawman argument that you're making, I don't know where you're getting that there's a misconception of the vaccine equating to 100% immunity. No one said that.
  - jfengel 5y ago
    Right now the primary question is about the comprehension, or lack of same, on the part of anti-vaxers. The actual truth about infections is almost completely irrelevant here. The question is, what tactic will keep us all safest when the primary threat comes from people who are clinically stupid? That's purely a psychology question, and I honestly don't know what the answer is. But it's worth noting that it's pretty much all about strawmen, and which strawmen the anti-vax crowd can be manipulated into believing.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - tehlike 5y ago
    You might find this more useful: https://www.timesofisrael.com/of-fully-vaccinated-israelis-only-0-2-develop-covid-19-symptoms/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/of-fully-vaccinated-israelis-o...
  - caddemon 5y ago
    J&J definitely does not have >90% efficacy

infamouscow 5y ago

Nothing is 100% certain. If you don't want to risk it then stay at home.

jes 5y ago
Nothing is 100% certain. I don't think this is true in all cases.
gsich 5y ago
Death is.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  No it isn't. Enoch and Elijah never died.
  - krapp 5y ago
    Enoch and Elijah are fictional characters. In reality, death is 100% certain.

KoftaBob 5y ago

The point was to get the risk/velocity of spread to a much smaller and manageable amount. Anything after that, if it's still too much risk for someone because they're only comfortable with 100% certainty, they can choose to stay at home. We're not going to keep society on hold until we reach 100% eradication of a virus, just to appease neurotic people.

remarkEon 5y ago

No. The continual insistence by some - many in prominent leadership positions - that nothing changes after you get vaccinated is what was hurting confidence that the vaccine works. If it works, why would I have to act like it doesn't? People can make their own judgements about their personal risk, but I'm not waiting until some arbitrary effectivity point (99%? 99.9%? 99.99%?) to go back to normal. I'll be in the gym tonight for 2 hours without a mask for the first time in well over a year.

sacomo 5y ago
Cool
shados 5y ago
> If it works, why would I have to act like it doesn't? This vaccine is -ridiculously- effective, which definitely changed things a bit (well, a lot). It looks like people who have it are pretty much immune, the chances of transmitting even if you DO get the virus is extremely low, etc. We're lucky. It could have gone a very different way though. If we had a vaccine that's much less effective (eg: like the flu's), we'd have to rely on the power of statistics at scale to get rid of the pandemic. So yeah, that would have meant you'd have to get vaccine and still act like you haven't for a while until more people take it. Thank <whatever deity> things turned out better though, since its pretty obvious that people wouldn't have been able to comprehend that scenario.
dlp211 5y ago
When they made those statements, it was nothing changes for now. We were always going to get to this point where enough people became vaccinated and others had enough of a natural immunity that we would start to open up, take off the masks, and get to normal. You couldn't do that when 10% of people had the vaccine dose. Did people really think that the government was going to forever make people where masks and to social distance and all the other measures?
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Even if only one person in the world were vaccinated, why should that one person not get to stop wearing a mask and social distancing?

kelnos 5y ago

Vouched for your (dead) comment because I think it has value in the discussion, even though I think you're missing the whole picture. Unfortunately the US political and social climate means this CDC advice has to come now, not later, when it'll probably be more scientifically appropriate. Demand for vaccines has been dropping for weeks, and vaccine-hesitant people need to see that there are clear benefits to their day-to-day lives if they get vaccinated. Vaccines are definitely not 100%, but I think the hope is that relaxing restrictions for vaccinated people will increase demand for the vaccine enough to be worth the risk. While this recommendation may not be good science, I suspect it's good public policy, given that we are all a bunch of emotional humans who don't always do what's best for ourselves when presented only with logic. There are commenters in other subthreads here who have said that this news made them go and sign up for a vaccine appointment. So it is having the desired effect. We'll see if it has enough of the desired effect.