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Thus limiting those that are not vaccinated and making it difficult to move freely for them. The travel pass is a horrible idea, that effectively will force ma

Thus limiting those that are not vaccinated and making it difficult to move freely for them. The travel pass is a horrible idea, that effectively will force many to be vaccinated. That should not be the european way.

gls2ro 5y ago
What should be the european way? I ask this as I understand your concern about politics forcing personal decisions, yet I am not finding a pragmatic workable solution to the current crisis.
- sharken 5y ago
  Personal freedom should be the european way, like it is with the free movement of labor. You can use UK to gauge how the Covid situation will become and i dont think anyone will say there is a crisis now. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/
- lazyjones 5y ago
  The European way should be to treat the EU as one country and stop restricting movement. We've had Schengen for a long time, which meant no border checks whatsoever on most borders (we were driving through without even stopping or slowing down most of the time). With this vaccine passport, Schengen is pretty much history and that removes one of the main liberties the EU was offering.
  - p49k 5y ago
    Schengen has been deteriorating for a long time. Denmark has totally ignored it and has road checks at the border for more than 5 years now and other nations have done similar (although to a less extreme extent).
    - pjerem 5y ago
      I’ve been to Denmark two years ago and I have no memory of any border check. It was by plane btw, maybe the checks are different but it would be surprising. It is totally possible however that the check was so fast that I don’t remember it. Do you have any information about this ?
      - ben_bai 5y ago
        Can't speak for Denmark. But usually those border-checks are done couple km/miles after the border. Police will just stop "random" cars/trucks and do a "routine check". And "random" it might be as much as 50% of the passing cars.
      - p49k 5y ago
        Note I said “road checks” as in arriving by car. They totally closed the border and stop basically all non-Danish license plates for inspection. They are only supposed to be able to do this for emergencies for a max of 6 months. Instead, every 6 months they declare a new “emergency” so they can keep it closed indefinitely.
  - gattilorenz 5y ago
    > The European way should be to treat the EU as one country and stop restricting movement. At least in Italy, movement was restricted inside regions (sometimes provinces) of the same country due to the epidemy. It's not nice for anyone involved, but the primary goal is to stop/limit the contagion. I'm an expat, so it goes against one of my interests, but I'm in favor of limiting border crossings, unless you can show that you won't spread COVID around.
  - gls2ro 5y ago
    As long as we can have quarantine of cities, then we will have quarantine of countries => deadlock, each country, like now will restrict movement from other countries, thus making the freedom of movement almost impractical for everybody. So I think in this case (we are in a global pandemic) it makes sense to see freedom of movement not in a binary way (yes/no) but more in shades: allow more movement of more people as we get better at containing the pandemic. Also please note EU is not a federal state, nor many of the founding members want that to be. So countries have a lot of power to decide how to handle pandemic. Still I think EU as a block did a good job negotiating vaccines in the context of not having a unity or a fast decision process. So while I don't agree with restricting rights, I also don't agree with restricting rights of people who can move (like the ones vaccinated or immunised naturally) just because everybody cannot do it (cannot get vaccinated for personal or medical reasons).
- tomp 5y ago
  As exemplified by the UK, enough people will want to get vaccinated to reach herd immunity. Then you don’t need to care about / oppress those who don’t want to / can’t get vaccinated.
  - gls2ro 5y ago
    I would like a lot to believe that this is how it will be in all EU states, but I am not sure. As far as I can see the vaccination rhythm is decreasing in some countries and it is not even approaching 50% of population. It might be because of the back and forth with Astra Zeneca the EU did or it might be because EU is pretty big as in diverse with respect of culture, set of beliefs, approach to health … Anyhow everyone is demanding EU to do something so their response will not be “wait so that everybody wants to be vaccinated”. Also because being that big means that heard immunity will not be reached.
azinman2 5y ago
Why not require vaccination?
- chrisco255 5y ago
  Liberty. It's a terrible a precedent to restrict freedom of movement on a forced personal health decision. It's basically subverting your body to the state.
  - wfhbata 5y ago
    It’s a terrible precedent to let people prolong a pandemic and endanger innocent people’s lives in the name of their personal liberties. If you don’t want to take measures to protect others, you can sit home for a while. It won’t kill you, and it won’t kill the people around you.
    - T-hawk 5y ago
      No, once everyone who wants it is vaccinated, their health is their problem not mine. If anyone is still scared of unvaccinated people, they can keep themselves at home forever, they don't get to force medical choices and restrictions on others.
      - stormbrew 5y ago
        If anyone is scared of getting vaccinated due to nonsense conspiracy theories, they can keep themselves at home forever, they don't get to force a deadly disease on others.
        T-hawk 5y ago
        It's not deadly to the vaccinated. That's the whole point of the vaccines. Or are you arguing that the vaccines don't work?
        dagenix 5y ago
jeduan 5y ago
It’s always funny when white people find out about visas
Jommi 5y ago
Yeah just like anyone should be able to travel or live in Asian countries without the proper vaccines. Jeez.
- sharken 5y ago
  Are you talking about Covid vaccines ?
  - M4v3R 5y ago
    No, for years it was already required that you vaccinate against certain diseases if you want to visit some countries. It’s not a novel idea. It’s just common sense.
murkt 5y ago
> The travel pass is a horrible idea, that effectively will force many to be vaccinated. Good. It’s not like a concentration camp. There are other options if you don’t want to vaccinate. You can just stay at home (I’ve been declined Schengen visa in the past for no reason), you can get PCR-tested. You also can get ill with Covid and then recover (hopefully).
- novaRom 5y ago
  Do labs store collected DNA results of PCR? I wonder if a database of DNA of millions of people will emerge on black market one day.
  - murkt 5y ago
    Covid PCR tests check for specific viral RNA. They’re not sequencing human DNA.
    - aww_dang 5y ago
      The potential exists for DNA harvesting. Dismissing it as impossible seems inaccurate. >(CBS) — The largest biotech firm in the world wasted no time in offering to build and run COVID testing labs in Washington, contacting its governor right after the first major COVID outbreak in the U.S. occurred there. The Chinese company, the BGI Group, made the same offer to at least five other states, including New York and California, 60 Minutes has learned. This, along with other COVID testing offers by BGI, so worried Bill Evanina, then the country’s top counterintelligence officer, that he authorized a rare public warning. “Foreign powers can collect, store and exploit biometric information from COVID tests” declared the notice. Evanina believes the Chinese are trying to collect Americans’ DNA to win a race to control the world’s biodata. https://www.klfy.com/national/u-s-intelligence-officials-say-chinese-government-is-collecting-americans-dna/ https://www.klfy.com/national/u-s-intelligence-officials-say... https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/bill-gates-china-23me-and-your-dna/ https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/bill-gates-china-23m... >China's push to control Americans' health care future: U.S. officials say the Chinese government is trying to collect Americans' DNA, and they believe a recent offer from a Chinese company for assistance in COVID-19 testing was suspicious. Jon Wertheim reports. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biodata-dna-china-collection-60-minutes-2021-01-31/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biodata-dna-china-collection-60... https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/07/02/china-bgi-california-testing/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/07/02/china-bgi...
Cederfjard 5y ago
> Thus limiting those that are not vaccinated and making it difficult to move freely for them. > ... that effectively will force many to be vaccinated. Yup, that’s the point. No man is an island. You already can’t walk around doing literally whatever you want just because it’s your body you’re doing it with. You depend on other people, and other people depend on you (or at least can’t avoid intermingling with you, especially if you decide to travel internationally). Those who don’t get vaccinated slow down our recovery from the pandemic, putting other people’s health and lives at risk. Society has to make these trade-offs, and this one seems very reasonable to me.
- radu_floricica 5y ago
  I agree with your points, but I'd really really like to avoid giving the impression of... glee? "Look at those unwashed unvaccinated Trump supporters, so good they'll be forced to do things our ways now!". I'm not saying you're doing it, I'm just piggybacking on your comment. I'm pretty much a high-modernist when it comes to vaccines - I think that having governments build sewage and create vaccines go into the same category of "damn useful for civilization". But it does involve curtailing liberties, and I just can't put it in a "fell good" category.
  - unilynx 5y ago
    This subthread started about the EU. What does Trump have to do with this?
  - refactor_master 5y ago
    I completely disagree. As we say with code, there’s freedom in restrictions. I, for example, don’t ever have to worry about my safety because the “freedom” of others have been curtailed on several points, and I deeply appreciate that. There’s no inherently moral good in limitless freedom. Especially because humans are far from rational agents that can reasonably act without boundaries. If you don’t want to be vaccinated or pay your taxes, you are, on some level, a danger to society.
    - 5y ago
spicybright 5y ago
Your freedom ends where mine begins. Walking around with covid effects my freedom to walk around.

gls2ro 5y ago

What should be the european way? I ask this as I understand your concern about politics forcing personal decisions, yet I am not finding a pragmatic workable solution to the current crisis.

sharken 5y ago
Personal freedom should be the european way, like it is with the free movement of labor. You can use UK to gauge how the Covid situation will become and i dont think anyone will say there is a crisis now. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/
lazyjones 5y ago
The European way should be to treat the EU as one country and stop restricting movement. We've had Schengen for a long time, which meant no border checks whatsoever on most borders (we were driving through without even stopping or slowing down most of the time). With this vaccine passport, Schengen is pretty much history and that removes one of the main liberties the EU was offering.
- p49k 5y ago
  Schengen has been deteriorating for a long time. Denmark has totally ignored it and has road checks at the border for more than 5 years now and other nations have done similar (although to a less extreme extent).
  - pjerem 5y ago
    I’ve been to Denmark two years ago and I have no memory of any border check. It was by plane btw, maybe the checks are different but it would be surprising. It is totally possible however that the check was so fast that I don’t remember it. Do you have any information about this ?
    - ben_bai 5y ago
      Can't speak for Denmark. But usually those border-checks are done couple km/miles after the border. Police will just stop "random" cars/trucks and do a "routine check". And "random" it might be as much as 50% of the passing cars.
    - p49k 5y ago
      Note I said “road checks” as in arriving by car. They totally closed the border and stop basically all non-Danish license plates for inspection. They are only supposed to be able to do this for emergencies for a max of 6 months. Instead, every 6 months they declare a new “emergency” so they can keep it closed indefinitely.
- gattilorenz 5y ago
  > The European way should be to treat the EU as one country and stop restricting movement. At least in Italy, movement was restricted inside regions (sometimes provinces) of the same country due to the epidemy. It's not nice for anyone involved, but the primary goal is to stop/limit the contagion. I'm an expat, so it goes against one of my interests, but I'm in favor of limiting border crossings, unless you can show that you won't spread COVID around.
- gls2ro 5y ago
  As long as we can have quarantine of cities, then we will have quarantine of countries => deadlock, each country, like now will restrict movement from other countries, thus making the freedom of movement almost impractical for everybody. So I think in this case (we are in a global pandemic) it makes sense to see freedom of movement not in a binary way (yes/no) but more in shades: allow more movement of more people as we get better at containing the pandemic. Also please note EU is not a federal state, nor many of the founding members want that to be. So countries have a lot of power to decide how to handle pandemic. Still I think EU as a block did a good job negotiating vaccines in the context of not having a unity or a fast decision process. So while I don't agree with restricting rights, I also don't agree with restricting rights of people who can move (like the ones vaccinated or immunised naturally) just because everybody cannot do it (cannot get vaccinated for personal or medical reasons).
tomp 5y ago
As exemplified by the UK, enough people will want to get vaccinated to reach herd immunity. Then you don’t need to care about / oppress those who don’t want to / can’t get vaccinated.
- gls2ro 5y ago
  I would like a lot to believe that this is how it will be in all EU states, but I am not sure. As far as I can see the vaccination rhythm is decreasing in some countries and it is not even approaching 50% of population. It might be because of the back and forth with Astra Zeneca the EU did or it might be because EU is pretty big as in diverse with respect of culture, set of beliefs, approach to health … Anyhow everyone is demanding EU to do something so their response will not be “wait so that everybody wants to be vaccinated”. Also because being that big means that heard immunity will not be reached.

azinman2 5y ago

Why not require vaccination?

chrisco255 5y ago
Liberty. It's a terrible a precedent to restrict freedom of movement on a forced personal health decision. It's basically subverting your body to the state.
- wfhbata 5y ago
  It’s a terrible precedent to let people prolong a pandemic and endanger innocent people’s lives in the name of their personal liberties. If you don’t want to take measures to protect others, you can sit home for a while. It won’t kill you, and it won’t kill the people around you.
  - T-hawk 5y ago
    No, once everyone who wants it is vaccinated, their health is their problem not mine. If anyone is still scared of unvaccinated people, they can keep themselves at home forever, they don't get to force medical choices and restrictions on others.
    - stormbrew 5y ago
      If anyone is scared of getting vaccinated due to nonsense conspiracy theories, they can keep themselves at home forever, they don't get to force a deadly disease on others.
      - T-hawk 5y ago
        It's not deadly to the vaccinated. That's the whole point of the vaccines. Or are you arguing that the vaccines don't work?
        dagenix 5y ago

jeduan 5y ago

It’s always funny when white people find out about visas

Jommi 5y ago

Yeah just like anyone should be able to travel or live in Asian countries without the proper vaccines. Jeez.

sharken 5y ago
Are you talking about Covid vaccines ?
- M4v3R 5y ago
  No, for years it was already required that you vaccinate against certain diseases if you want to visit some countries. It’s not a novel idea. It’s just common sense.

murkt 5y ago

> The travel pass is a horrible idea, that effectively will force many to be vaccinated. Good. It’s not like a concentration camp. There are other options if you don’t want to vaccinate. You can just stay at home (I’ve been declined Schengen visa in the past for no reason), you can get PCR-tested. You also can get ill with Covid and then recover (hopefully).

novaRom 5y ago
Do labs store collected DNA results of PCR? I wonder if a database of DNA of millions of people will emerge on black market one day.
- murkt 5y ago
  Covid PCR tests check for specific viral RNA. They’re not sequencing human DNA.
  - aww_dang 5y ago
    The potential exists for DNA harvesting. Dismissing it as impossible seems inaccurate. >(CBS) — The largest biotech firm in the world wasted no time in offering to build and run COVID testing labs in Washington, contacting its governor right after the first major COVID outbreak in the U.S. occurred there. The Chinese company, the BGI Group, made the same offer to at least five other states, including New York and California, 60 Minutes has learned. This, along with other COVID testing offers by BGI, so worried Bill Evanina, then the country’s top counterintelligence officer, that he authorized a rare public warning. “Foreign powers can collect, store and exploit biometric information from COVID tests” declared the notice. Evanina believes the Chinese are trying to collect Americans’ DNA to win a race to control the world’s biodata. https://www.klfy.com/national/u-s-intelligence-officials-say-chinese-government-is-collecting-americans-dna/ https://www.klfy.com/national/u-s-intelligence-officials-say... https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/bill-gates-china-23me-and-your-dna/ https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/bill-gates-china-23m... >China's push to control Americans' health care future: U.S. officials say the Chinese government is trying to collect Americans' DNA, and they believe a recent offer from a Chinese company for assistance in COVID-19 testing was suspicious. Jon Wertheim reports. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biodata-dna-china-collection-60-minutes-2021-01-31/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biodata-dna-china-collection-60... https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/07/02/china-bgi-california-testing/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/07/02/china-bgi...

Cederfjard 5y ago

> Thus limiting those that are not vaccinated and making it difficult to move freely for them. > ... that effectively will force many to be vaccinated. Yup, that’s the point. No man is an island. You already can’t walk around doing literally whatever you want just because it’s your body you’re doing it with. You depend on other people, and other people depend on you (or at least can’t avoid intermingling with you, especially if you decide to travel internationally). Those who don’t get vaccinated slow down our recovery from the pandemic, putting other people’s health and lives at risk. Society has to make these trade-offs, and this one seems very reasonable to me.

radu_floricica 5y ago
I agree with your points, but I'd really really like to avoid giving the impression of... glee? "Look at those unwashed unvaccinated Trump supporters, so good they'll be forced to do things our ways now!". I'm not saying you're doing it, I'm just piggybacking on your comment. I'm pretty much a high-modernist when it comes to vaccines - I think that having governments build sewage and create vaccines go into the same category of "damn useful for civilization". But it does involve curtailing liberties, and I just can't put it in a "fell good" category.
- unilynx 5y ago
  This subthread started about the EU. What does Trump have to do with this?
- refactor_master 5y ago
  I completely disagree. As we say with code, there’s freedom in restrictions. I, for example, don’t ever have to worry about my safety because the “freedom” of others have been curtailed on several points, and I deeply appreciate that. There’s no inherently moral good in limitless freedom. Especially because humans are far from rational agents that can reasonably act without boundaries. If you don’t want to be vaccinated or pay your taxes, you are, on some level, a danger to society.
  - 5y ago

spicybright 5y ago

Your freedom ends where mine begins. Walking around with covid effects my freedom to walk around.