19 ms·

As a user, I'd love the option to decide whether I want to help in this system or not. Similar to how I can opt-in to sharing analytics with Apple. I just migh

by fjni 5y ago

As a user, I'd love the option to decide whether I want to help in this system or not. Similar to how I can opt-in to sharing analytics with Apple. I just might help out. But the idea that by owning an iPhone I'm automatically opted into this and I can't (temporarily) disable it is concerning. Especially since the feature to alert users of the possible privacy invasion outlined here, seems to not yet be working as advertised. It's unclear to me if the "Participate in 'Find My Network'" option is what I'm talking about. But I also don't remember being asked about this at any point.

Daishiman 5y ago
Apple is surely against tracking and in favor of opt-ins for privacy... as long as it's the competitors' products and not its own.
- samatman 5y ago
  I don't really think either of those things apply here, although the implementation is pretty crucial. AirTags have some protections against using them to track people, and the AirTag network doesn't appear to leak any private information. That last part could be completely wrong, for all we know: it relies on the software to be correct. The whole point of the gizmo is to "track", and I struggle to come up with an improvement to their solution to allowing users to track things but not stalk people. This is being automatically enrolled in some kind of public good, where "public" is the Apple ecosystem. Is that bad? I mean, I don't mind, but offering an opt-out seems... polite, at least?
  - daemoon 5y ago
    It does let you to opt-out.
  - petepete 5y ago
    Stalking people who don't use iOS is fine though. It's a good thing they're not as important.
    - fastball 5y ago
      The idea that AirTags are much of a step up from what a determined stalker is already using[1] to stalk people is a laughable one. [1] https://www.amazon.com/GPS-Trackers/b?node=617650011 https://www.amazon.com/GPS-Trackers/b?node=617650011
      - shkkmo 5y ago
        Then why do they provide protections against being tracked by them only to iOS users?
        samatman 5y ago
        How do you propose they extend this to other platforms?
        jfoster 5y ago
        What would stop them from creating an Android app to notify users if an AirTag seems to be travelling with them?
        samatman 5y ago
        They easily could, agreed. They even might? It's not unheard of for Apple to release software on other platforms, however uncommon it might be. It's certainly not the kind of thing they do right at the time of release. I don't imagine you'd get much penetration relative to running it on every device at the OS level, though. Probably rough on the battery running in userspace? It doesn't seem like it solves a problem most people are likely to have.
        shkkmo 5y ago
        They didn't try at all. I wouldn't personally sell a device such as this as I believe it is very ethically grey unless you seriously consider mitigation measures that are available to everyone.
        5y ago
  - darkarmani 5y ago
    > The whole point of the gizmo is to "track", and I struggle to come up with an improvement to their solution to allowing users to track things but not stalk people. Let the user block types of devices from using their "find network". And let them block individual devices from using the "find network" through their phone. If everyone could see, every local device, there would be no private tracking.
    - samatman 5y ago
      I don't actually understand what you're proposing here? Sibling comments point out that opting out of the AirTag network is a setting in a given iOS device, which I didn't know, but I don't think that's what you mean.
- the_lonely_road 5y ago
  Very few people practice consistent logic regarding opt in versus opt out. In nearly every case I’ve observed people are pro opt in for things they don’t like and pro opt out of things do like. Hence the push to make organ donation opt out and privacy invasion opt in. I don’t think there should be an expectation of being consistent, it’s just an observation.
  - ASalazarMX 5y ago
    Funny how in this case, we're talking about two tracking efforts, so it would be expected that both were opt-in to respect our privacy. The difference is that one kind of tracking helps Apple make money, and the other doesn't.
    - FabHK 5y ago
      How does helping other people find their lost items (with neither Apple nor the "helper" knowing where the item is, now who lost it) infringe on anyone's privacy?
      - Daishiman 5y ago
        How about if I just don't want Apple collecting data at will or using my device as a private mesh network?
        fastball 5y ago
        Um, then don't enable "Find My iPhone" when setting up your device??
        theshrike79 5y ago
        What data is Apple collecting? All of the data is anonymised and encrypted so that even Apple can't decrypt it.
        CRConrad 5y ago
        One would have thought by now people who get Apple devices should have stopped thinking of them as "my device".
- threeseed 5y ago
  This is simply nonsense. Apple asks you every, single time you upgrade your iOS/OSX device to confirm your privacy and telemetry settings. And all of the features they implement are private by design. They use features such as differential privacy to make sure they aren't leaking private data: https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_Overview.pdf https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_Over...
hwbehrens 5y ago
The "Participate in 'Find My Network' is the option you're referring to, but it's opt-out, not opt-in.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
daemoon 5y ago
> Especially since the feature to alert users of the possible privacy invasion outlined here, seems to not yet be working as advertised. The AirTag was not moving, hence the lack of notifications. Otherwise you'd get a ton of notification practically anywhere you approach an AirTag. It is working as intended.
- hu3 5y ago
  "Not moving" is also an information that is useful to stalkers.
blintz 5y ago
Yeah, the 'Settings > [Name] > Find My > Find My iPhone > Find My network' option will turn the collaborative tracking off. But yeah, it's buried, poorly explained, and an opt-out rather than an opt-in.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- fastball 5y ago
  That's not buried at all. It's literally where I would expect to find that setting. And it is opt-in... you need to enable Find My iPhone at setup time in order for that to be enabled.
  - upbeat_general 5y ago
    I spent about 10 minutes googling how to disable it before finally finding the find my settings. There’s nothing on any of the apple pages I could find about opting out. If it took me that long to disable it, it won’t be obvious for most people. I found it through Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services -> Share my Location -> Find my iPhone -> Find my Network. They could have put it 2 steps above or found a better way.
    - fastball 5y ago
      Wow, so you can actually find the settings through two routes, I didn't know that but it makes it even easier! The only jump that is not immediately obvious is that the Find My settings are under your Apple ID settings. Everything else is blindingly obvious and is not confusing at all. You being confused does not mean the average person will also be confused. You could just be a confused person. From there though, it is a root level option when setting up your phone and enabling "Find My iPhone". I'm actually disappointed that the disabling of the network is even an option. Bit of a tragedy of the commons situation if we have too many selfish people like you who want the benefits of being able to find their own phone when it's lost but not participate in helping find other people's.
polartx 5y ago
I thought that was kind of implied by the ‘Enable Find my IPhone’ setting that is required for the tags to work..which isn’t a condition I’m upset about. IE—want to benefit from this feature? Thanks for pitching in! Don’t want to be part of the helpful network? Okay, disable Find my IPhone
- ASalazarMX 5y ago
  You phrase it as if it was some community effort. Since it's opt-out and people don't change the defaults several levels deep, it's a shadow service. How many Apple users know their devices are tracking other's devices?
  - kube-system 5y ago
    IIRC, when I set up my iPhone, I was asked whether I wanted to turn on location services (which would be used with the Find My network), and separately asked whether I wanted to "participate in the Find My network".
  - admax88q 5y ago
    Let's be honest, this is what you sign up for with Apple. Apple chooses not only the defaults but even what software you are allowed to run. To be surprised that Apple uses "their" network of devices to provide services to their users shouldn't be surprising. If you wanted control over your device you shouldn't buy Apple, their stance on user's ownership of devices is widely known.
elliekelly 5y ago
I've updated my iPad but haven't yet updated my iPhone and just poked around in: Settings > Privacy > Location Services > Share My Location > Find My $iDevice My iPad has the "Find My network" setting (toggled on) but I was a bit surprised to see my iPhone has what seems to be the same setting (also toggled on) but it's called "Enable Offline Finding". Find My Network is described as "Participating in the Find My Network lets you locate this iPad even if it's offline." Enable Offline Finding is described as "Offline finding enables this device to be found when not connected to Wi-Fi or cellular." Which makes me wonder if "Find My Network" is just a repacking and rebranding of something Apple has been doing for a long time. Regardless, I'd prefer to have opted-in. I suppose it's possible at some point I opted in while setting up a new device with "Find My" but I'm not sure. I certainly had no idea there was a way to find my iPhone even when it wasn't connected to wi-fi or cellular signal. E- It seems this feature was added ~2 years ago and it did indeed use bluetooth and "crowdsourced" Apple devices[1]: > Offline Finding uses a background process called "Search Party" to broadcast and receive Bluetooth beacon signals at regular intervals, and it can even do its work when the device is in a sleep state. And it does this with limited battery impact for all devices involved, so you should see little to no difference in power consumption. And whether it was turned on by default seems to depend: > By default, if you had Find My iPhone, iPad, or Mac turned on before updating to iOS 13, iPadOS 13, or macOS 10.15 Catalina, Offline Finding should already be on. However, if only one of the device's had the Find My service enabled but not another device, it may not have turned on automatically. To make sure it's on, check the following. [1]https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/track-your-lost-iphone-ipad-mac-even-when-its-offline-as-long-as-feature-is-enabled-0204719/ https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/track-your-lost-iphone-ip...
zzyzxd 5y ago
Default is powerful. I think one of the most important reason that ATT freaked out ad vendors, is because its default setting is "disable tracking". I would imagine that if Apple prompt user with a pop up asking "do you want to participate?" many would choose no because why not. And then AirTag won't be as effective. I did get a little pissed that the Find My Network isn't opt-out, even though I would likely choose yes.
- casefields 5y ago
  You see this in organ donation. Opt-in is abysmal, but it's the reverse when they switch to opt-out. I get the utilitarian reason for the change but it's ethically and morally dubious. Informed consent is the gold standard, except when it's not.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    The economist Richard Thaler (who wrote the book Nudge & won Nobel for behavioral economics work) has, I believe, actually argued against opt out in this case because defaults are so powerful next of kin will also argue there was no informed consent.
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      Once we provide sufficient funding to coroners and the rules around how the human tissue procurement industry operate are fixed, I might be on board with it if it were accompanied by a big enough public awareness campaign.
      - Tyrannosaur 5y ago
        What about the human tissue procurement industry rules needs to be fixed?
  - akiselev 5y ago
    > Informed consent is the gold standard, except when it's not. You're thinking of medical research and experimentation. In the practice of medicine the Hippocratic oath takes precedence over everything else so of course informed consent gets thrown out when there is concrete evidence that it interferes with medicine's purpose: healing people. When's the last time someone gave informed consent while unconscious and bleeding out after a car crash or shooting? That's why we have DNRs.
fastball 5y ago
What do you mean? It asks you at setup time "would you like to enable Find My iPhone?" If you click yes, then it is enabled. That sounds like opt-in to me. How can it get any more opt-in?
sneak 5y ago
Note that even opting out of sharing analytics with Apple results in your Mac, iPhone, or iPad sending lots of usage and activity data to Apple all of the time. That analytics opt in/out screen is more marketing than reality. For example, your device hardware serial is sent to Apple every time you open the App Store, like a permanent supercookie. Analytics are sent whenever you stream a video or make a FaceTime call, even with analytics off. Location Services sends your location 24/7 to Apple over the network, et c. Apple's approach to co-opting the Apple-branded hardware that you own to benefit Apple is a poor one.

by fjni 5y ago

Daishiman 5y ago

Apple is surely against tracking and in favor of opt-ins for privacy... as long as it's the competitors' products and not its own.

samatman 5y ago
I don't really think either of those things apply here, although the implementation is pretty crucial. AirTags have some protections against using them to track people, and the AirTag network doesn't appear to leak any private information. That last part could be completely wrong, for all we know: it relies on the software to be correct. The whole point of the gizmo is to "track", and I struggle to come up with an improvement to their solution to allowing users to track things but not stalk people. This is being automatically enrolled in some kind of public good, where "public" is the Apple ecosystem. Is that bad? I mean, I don't mind, but offering an opt-out seems... polite, at least?
- daemoon 5y ago
  It does let you to opt-out.
- petepete 5y ago
  Stalking people who don't use iOS is fine though. It's a good thing they're not as important.
  - fastball 5y ago
    The idea that AirTags are much of a step up from what a determined stalker is already using[1] to stalk people is a laughable one. [1] https://www.amazon.com/GPS-Trackers/b?node=617650011 https://www.amazon.com/GPS-Trackers/b?node=617650011
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      Then why do they provide protections against being tracked by them only to iOS users?
      - samatman 5y ago
        How do you propose they extend this to other platforms?
        jfoster 5y ago
        What would stop them from creating an Android app to notify users if an AirTag seems to be travelling with them?
        samatman 5y ago
        They easily could, agreed. They even might? It's not unheard of for Apple to release software on other platforms, however uncommon it might be. It's certainly not the kind of thing they do right at the time of release. I don't imagine you'd get much penetration relative to running it on every device at the OS level, though. Probably rough on the battery running in userspace? It doesn't seem like it solves a problem most people are likely to have.
        shkkmo 5y ago
        They didn't try at all. I wouldn't personally sell a device such as this as I believe it is very ethically grey unless you seriously consider mitigation measures that are available to everyone.
      - 5y ago
- darkarmani 5y ago
  > The whole point of the gizmo is to "track", and I struggle to come up with an improvement to their solution to allowing users to track things but not stalk people. Let the user block types of devices from using their "find network". And let them block individual devices from using the "find network" through their phone. If everyone could see, every local device, there would be no private tracking.
  - samatman 5y ago
    I don't actually understand what you're proposing here? Sibling comments point out that opting out of the AirTag network is a setting in a given iOS device, which I didn't know, but I don't think that's what you mean.
the_lonely_road 5y ago
Very few people practice consistent logic regarding opt in versus opt out. In nearly every case I’ve observed people are pro opt in for things they don’t like and pro opt out of things do like. Hence the push to make organ donation opt out and privacy invasion opt in. I don’t think there should be an expectation of being consistent, it’s just an observation.
- ASalazarMX 5y ago
  Funny how in this case, we're talking about two tracking efforts, so it would be expected that both were opt-in to respect our privacy. The difference is that one kind of tracking helps Apple make money, and the other doesn't.
  - FabHK 5y ago
    How does helping other people find their lost items (with neither Apple nor the "helper" knowing where the item is, now who lost it) infringe on anyone's privacy?
    - Daishiman 5y ago
      How about if I just don't want Apple collecting data at will or using my device as a private mesh network?
      - fastball 5y ago
        Um, then don't enable "Find My iPhone" when setting up your device??
      - theshrike79 5y ago
        What data is Apple collecting? All of the data is anonymised and encrypted so that even Apple can't decrypt it.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        One would have thought by now people who get Apple devices should have stopped thinking of them as "my device".
threeseed 5y ago
This is simply nonsense. Apple asks you every, single time you upgrade your iOS/OSX device to confirm your privacy and telemetry settings. And all of the features they implement are private by design. They use features such as differential privacy to make sure they aren't leaking private data: https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_Overview.pdf https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Differential_Privacy_Over...

hwbehrens 5y ago

The "Participate in 'Find My Network' is the option you're referring to, but it's opt-out, not opt-in.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

daemoon 5y ago

> Especially since the feature to alert users of the possible privacy invasion outlined here, seems to not yet be working as advertised. The AirTag was not moving, hence the lack of notifications. Otherwise you'd get a ton of notification practically anywhere you approach an AirTag. It is working as intended.

hu3 5y ago
"Not moving" is also an information that is useful to stalkers.

blintz 5y ago

Yeah, the 'Settings > [Name] > Find My > Find My iPhone > Find My network' option will turn the collaborative tracking off. But yeah, it's buried, poorly explained, and an opt-out rather than an opt-in.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
fastball 5y ago
That's not buried at all. It's literally where I would expect to find that setting. And it is opt-in... you need to enable Find My iPhone at setup time in order for that to be enabled.
- upbeat_general 5y ago
  I spent about 10 minutes googling how to disable it before finally finding the find my settings. There’s nothing on any of the apple pages I could find about opting out. If it took me that long to disable it, it won’t be obvious for most people. I found it through Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services -> Share my Location -> Find my iPhone -> Find my Network. They could have put it 2 steps above or found a better way.
  - fastball 5y ago
    Wow, so you can actually find the settings through two routes, I didn't know that but it makes it even easier! The only jump that is not immediately obvious is that the Find My settings are under your Apple ID settings. Everything else is blindingly obvious and is not confusing at all. You being confused does not mean the average person will also be confused. You could just be a confused person. From there though, it is a root level option when setting up your phone and enabling "Find My iPhone". I'm actually disappointed that the disabling of the network is even an option. Bit of a tragedy of the commons situation if we have too many selfish people like you who want the benefits of being able to find their own phone when it's lost but not participate in helping find other people's.

polartx 5y ago

I thought that was kind of implied by the ‘Enable Find my IPhone’ setting that is required for the tags to work..which isn’t a condition I’m upset about. IE—want to benefit from this feature? Thanks for pitching in! Don’t want to be part of the helpful network? Okay, disable Find my IPhone

ASalazarMX 5y ago
You phrase it as if it was some community effort. Since it's opt-out and people don't change the defaults several levels deep, it's a shadow service. How many Apple users know their devices are tracking other's devices?
- kube-system 5y ago
  IIRC, when I set up my iPhone, I was asked whether I wanted to turn on location services (which would be used with the Find My network), and separately asked whether I wanted to "participate in the Find My network".
- admax88q 5y ago
  Let's be honest, this is what you sign up for with Apple. Apple chooses not only the defaults but even what software you are allowed to run. To be surprised that Apple uses "their" network of devices to provide services to their users shouldn't be surprising. If you wanted control over your device you shouldn't buy Apple, their stance on user's ownership of devices is widely known.

elliekelly 5y ago

I've updated my iPad but haven't yet updated my iPhone and just poked around in: Settings > Privacy > Location Services > Share My Location > Find My $iDevice My iPad has the "Find My network" setting (toggled on) but I was a bit surprised to see my iPhone has what seems to be the same setting (also toggled on) but it's called "Enable Offline Finding". Find My Network is described as "Participating in the Find My Network lets you locate this iPad even if it's offline." Enable Offline Finding is described as "Offline finding enables this device to be found when not connected to Wi-Fi or cellular." Which makes me wonder if "Find My Network" is just a repacking and rebranding of something Apple has been doing for a long time. Regardless, I'd prefer to have opted-in. I suppose it's possible at some point I opted in while setting up a new device with "Find My" but I'm not sure. I certainly had no idea there was a way to find my iPhone even when it wasn't connected to wi-fi or cellular signal. E- It seems this feature was added ~2 years ago and it did indeed use bluetooth and "crowdsourced" Apple devices[1]: > Offline Finding uses a background process called "Search Party" to broadcast and receive Bluetooth beacon signals at regular intervals, and it can even do its work when the device is in a sleep state. And it does this with limited battery impact for all devices involved, so you should see little to no difference in power consumption. And whether it was turned on by default seems to depend: > By default, if you had Find My iPhone, iPad, or Mac turned on before updating to iOS 13, iPadOS 13, or macOS 10.15 Catalina, Offline Finding should already be on. However, if only one of the device's had the Find My service enabled but not another device, it may not have turned on automatically. To make sure it's on, check the following. [1]https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/track-your-lost-iphone-ipad-mac-even-when-its-offline-as-long-as-feature-is-enabled-0204719/ https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/track-your-lost-iphone-ip...

zzyzxd 5y ago

Default is powerful. I think one of the most important reason that ATT freaked out ad vendors, is because its default setting is "disable tracking". I would imagine that if Apple prompt user with a pop up asking "do you want to participate?" many would choose no because why not. And then AirTag won't be as effective. I did get a little pissed that the Find My Network isn't opt-out, even though I would likely choose yes.

casefields 5y ago
You see this in organ donation. Opt-in is abysmal, but it's the reverse when they switch to opt-out. I get the utilitarian reason for the change but it's ethically and morally dubious. Informed consent is the gold standard, except when it's not.
- ghaff 5y ago
  The economist Richard Thaler (who wrote the book Nudge & won Nobel for behavioral economics work) has, I believe, actually argued against opt out in this case because defaults are so powerful next of kin will also argue there was no informed consent.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    Once we provide sufficient funding to coroners and the rules around how the human tissue procurement industry operate are fixed, I might be on board with it if it were accompanied by a big enough public awareness campaign.
    - Tyrannosaur 5y ago
      What about the human tissue procurement industry rules needs to be fixed?
- akiselev 5y ago
  > Informed consent is the gold standard, except when it's not. You're thinking of medical research and experimentation. In the practice of medicine the Hippocratic oath takes precedence over everything else so of course informed consent gets thrown out when there is concrete evidence that it interferes with medicine's purpose: healing people. When's the last time someone gave informed consent while unconscious and bleeding out after a car crash or shooting? That's why we have DNRs.

fastball 5y ago

What do you mean? It asks you at setup time "would you like to enable Find My iPhone?" If you click yes, then it is enabled. That sounds like opt-in to me. How can it get any more opt-in?

sneak 5y ago

Note that even opting out of sharing analytics with Apple results in your Mac, iPhone, or iPad sending lots of usage and activity data to Apple all of the time. That analytics opt in/out screen is more marketing than reality. For example, your device hardware serial is sent to Apple every time you open the App Store, like a permanent supercookie. Analytics are sent whenever you stream a video or make a FaceTime call, even with analytics off. Location Services sends your location 24/7 to Apple over the network, et c. Apple's approach to co-opting the Apple-branded hardware that you own to benefit Apple is a poor one.