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I think this is a really bad look for Sebastian. He started babel and made the most contributions overall, but he hasn't been involved in the project for 5 year

I think this is a really bad look for Sebastian. He started babel and made the most contributions overall, but he hasn't been involved in the project for 5 years at this point. He left to join Facebook and babel would have died if it weren't for the efforts of Logan, Henry, Nicolo and the other contributors. The original post on the babel website was written in response to him investigating the babel funding situation earlier this year, and so the babel team have made changes to make the situation fairer in their eyes. This apparently doesn't go far enough for Sebastian's tastes, so he has publicly called out by name one of the contributors who he feels doesn't do enough to justify their salary. The metric he uses for determining this is the number of github commits and comments that are shown on that person's profile. This is not a fair measure of someone's contribution to a project, and it's exactly the kind of behaviour that Sebastian would criticise if any other company was evaluating people in this way. In the meantime, Sebastian has started another competing project, Rome Tools, which was recently VC funded. The whole thing stinks. Will Rome Tools employees get called out and shamed in public if they don't have enough visibility on their github profile?

andrew_ 5y ago
Based on his track record (he did the same thing after departing Yarn), I'd say that's a definite risk. Unstable ground, to be sure.
- hitekker 5y ago
  May I have a link to his departure from Yarn?
- olingern 5y ago
  This is not correct
  - andrew_ 5y ago
    It actually is correct. He's routinely dogged the project and team after leaving the project: https://twitter.com/sebmck/status/1176534097881006080 https://twitter.com/sebmck/status/1176534097881006080, and was a founding member: https://engineering.fb.com/2016/10/11/web/yarn-a-new-package-manager-for-javascript/ https://engineering.fb.com/2016/10/11/web/yarn-a-new-package...
    - olingern 5y ago
      Having worked on both projects, I can tell you that it's more complex than what you're making it out to be.
      - andrew_ 5y ago
        This is where anecdotal evidence is difficult - hard evidence that we can reference points to the contrary and supports my reply. I have further anecdotal evidence I could cite, but it's not trustworthy.
      - cjaybo 5y ago
        Which aspect, and how?
      - Aeolun 5y ago
        It’s always complex, but that tweet is pretty damn explicit. It’s a bit of a challenge making anything else of that.
    - h1fra 5y ago
      while I don't agree with public bashing, he is right about yarn 2 being a disaster. After a 18months since GA, migrating to v2 is still a pain and not the default version, while v1 does not receive update anymore smh...
ericlewis 5y ago
Just as an FYI: Rome was started under the react-native team at Facebook and has been in development for well over 2 years, Facebook let him take it with him when he left.
- kyawzazaw 5y ago
  that's really rare, right?
  - nwah1 5y ago
    It seems to be MIT licensed, and if so then maybe anyone could. But probably the actual authors have the most legitimacy and knowledge.
    - ericlewis 5y ago
      when I asked seb about this (because I was a little surprised) he said FB wants to use it too edit: so... they don't have to pay him + they get the benefit
  - waheoo 5y ago
    Only if it's worth something.
tarruda 5y ago
> In the meantime, Sebastian has started another competing project, Rome Tools, which was recently VC funded. > The whole thing stinks. Will Rome Tools employees get called out and shamed in public if they don't have enough visibility on their github profile? I had no idea he had started a competing project. This really stinks, almost like he is sabotaging his competitor.
- bjornjajeja 5y ago
  Honestly the very idea of a JavaScript compiler like that is destined for obsolescence per standardized features added to browsers. Folks should just develop their own shims where necessary and TEST AGAINST VARIOUS BROWSERS. Sure no one likes doing that, but it’s important to follow the fast-pace ECMAScript adoption.
  - rhacker 5y ago
    > TEST AGAINST VARIOUS BROWSERS I mean, how does that not just push all of this towards companies and open source solutions that provide access to old browsers and what not? I mean no matter what direction you push, it's going to be someone else's open source code that needs money.
    - bjornjajeja 5y ago
      You’re right that was an off topic note. I guess what I’m getting at is that most current browsers support very nice JavaScript features anyway. And instead of adding yet another layer between our code and the browser—embrace the current generation of (at this point very robust) language features available. And if that’s not good enough use something like TypeScript!
      - nsonha 5y ago
        > most current browsers support very nice JavaScript features anyway Maybe that's true for users in the western world. However, if you are in the asian market, there are popular browsers you've nerver heard of (some localized fork of chromium that's way behind). That is not to mention the poorer populace of the world still uses whatever that runs on WinXP or something, if they have Internet at all. As software engineers it's not our job to use technology to dictate (control) how people access information, telling them to use newer browsers and newer hardware and what not, our job is to support as many people out there as we can.
frakkingcylons 5y ago
> Will Rome Tools employees get called out and shamed in public if they don't have enough visibility on their github profile? An important difference is Rome Tools employees are being paid with VC money and not money from the community.
WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
Jesus. Maybe I am old-school, but if you have a disagreement or someone isn't holding themselves to a standard, you don't take it to Twitter to signal to in-crowd. Yes, even when it's a publicly funded open-source dev-tool. Just the usual immature behavior of super-genius developers who have no concept of professionalism since any company in the world will write them a yearly check of infinite money. Out-of-touch, know-it-all. Edit: I reread this. Adding that no one is perfect, everyone slips up, loses perspective, pouts/whines, etc... We are all human and remember a single angry tweet thread does not define a person. Twitter is toxic signal-fest that brings out the worst in people right or wrong. Cheers!
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- nsonha 5y ago
  Guy is pretty young (created babel in high school I read) so maybe that's part of it. I find that the older I get the more empathy I have.
  - WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
    Wow, that’s amazing. Right on regarding empathy and age/experience. No one is really an awful person. Just petty drama...
    - cj 5y ago
      Mismanaging hundreds of thousands of dollars of charitable contributions goes a bit beyond petty drama in my opinion.
      - WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
        Ha, love the 10/10 spin there. - A joint decision was made how to split and pay maintainers. - A disagreement about performance / results has come from that. - Tweeting to rally the homies is immature (and quite embarrassing) way of solving a problem. I am not saying funds could not be reallocated differently. I’m saying the people involved with this are acting unprofessional / like children.
olingern 5y ago
There is a conflict of interest, but I wouldn't say it's 1-to-1. It's tough because I think the "optics of productivity" are somewhat important because money is involved. If I was concerned about things, I would have pinged someone in private months ago. Taking this to a public forum, leading with an accusation isn't the right thing to do regardless of how Babel.js was handling these things.
madjam002 5y ago
How is Rome Tools going to make money?
- codezero 5y ago
  Typical paths with OSS: - premium support - custom features / enterprise product offerings - commercial licensing - professional services/consultancy
mindfulmore 5y ago
deleted
- WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
  > $130k in the United States is a joke You are out of touch my friend. I think you can cool it on the anger here too. It’s not helpful.
  - mindfulmore 5y ago
    Neither is people piling on the maintainer of Babel based on GitHub activity and someone essentially accusing them of embezzlement. Sorry if that makes me upset. $130k for a senior developer in the United States is nothing. People at FANG are making 3-4x that annually.
    - WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
      > $130k for a senior developer in the United States is nothing. People at FANG are making 3-4x that annually. Right, hence my out of touch comment. This just doubles down.
      - asidiali 5y ago
        open source maintainer salary !== FAANG total comp package E5 engineers at FB are making an avg 200k base [1]. That is not that far off what you would expect the difference to be between open source maintainer and senior engineer at Facebook. That is not 3-4x. Even if you include stock, that will put the FB eng around 350k. You may have an argument for the 2-3x range but basically only at the very top level companies and senior roles, not mid level contributors. And by including stock or other forms of TC besides base, you begin inflating the impression of cash flow. Stock grants don’t land in your wallet like paychecks do. Your QoL or vested net worth will take time to be impacted. It’s not like all of a sudden you can now afford X% more in your daily life. IMO HN likes to exaggerate compensation levels. [1] https://www.levels.fyi/company/Facebook/salaries/Software-Engineer/E5/ https://www.levels.fyi/company/Facebook/salaries/Software-En...
polishdude20 5y ago
Yeah you just don't publically call out one of your employees. That's just a dick move at that point. Solve this problem internally and don't throw your developer under the bus because you didn't manage them better.
- nsonha 5y ago
  he doesn't manage babel. I think he's just saying this as a peer. It's bad regardless.
cfinn16 5y ago
Yeah, I'm admittedly just learning about this whole situation, but I fail to see how this isn't him just trying to take down the competition of his new project
digitaltrees 5y ago
Sounds like an effort to take down a competitor. If Rome tools is to replace Babel, people need to lose faith in Babel. Seems like a transparent conflict of interest.

andrew_ 5y ago

Based on his track record (he did the same thing after departing Yarn), I'd say that's a definite risk. Unstable ground, to be sure.

hitekker 5y ago
May I have a link to his departure from Yarn?
olingern 5y ago
This is not correct
- andrew_ 5y ago
  It actually is correct. He's routinely dogged the project and team after leaving the project: https://twitter.com/sebmck/status/1176534097881006080 https://twitter.com/sebmck/status/1176534097881006080, and was a founding member: https://engineering.fb.com/2016/10/11/web/yarn-a-new-package-manager-for-javascript/ https://engineering.fb.com/2016/10/11/web/yarn-a-new-package...
  - olingern 5y ago
    Having worked on both projects, I can tell you that it's more complex than what you're making it out to be.
    - andrew_ 5y ago
      This is where anecdotal evidence is difficult - hard evidence that we can reference points to the contrary and supports my reply. I have further anecdotal evidence I could cite, but it's not trustworthy.
    - cjaybo 5y ago
      Which aspect, and how?
    - Aeolun 5y ago
      It’s always complex, but that tweet is pretty damn explicit. It’s a bit of a challenge making anything else of that.
  - h1fra 5y ago
    while I don't agree with public bashing, he is right about yarn 2 being a disaster. After a 18months since GA, migrating to v2 is still a pain and not the default version, while v1 does not receive update anymore smh...

ericlewis 5y ago

Just as an FYI: Rome was started under the react-native team at Facebook and has been in development for well over 2 years, Facebook let him take it with him when he left.

kyawzazaw 5y ago
that's really rare, right?
- nwah1 5y ago
  It seems to be MIT licensed, and if so then maybe anyone could. But probably the actual authors have the most legitimacy and knowledge.
  - ericlewis 5y ago
    when I asked seb about this (because I was a little surprised) he said FB wants to use it too edit: so... they don't have to pay him + they get the benefit
- waheoo 5y ago
  Only if it's worth something.

tarruda 5y ago

> In the meantime, Sebastian has started another competing project, Rome Tools, which was recently VC funded. > The whole thing stinks. Will Rome Tools employees get called out and shamed in public if they don't have enough visibility on their github profile? I had no idea he had started a competing project. This really stinks, almost like he is sabotaging his competitor.

bjornjajeja 5y ago
Honestly the very idea of a JavaScript compiler like that is destined for obsolescence per standardized features added to browsers. Folks should just develop their own shims where necessary and TEST AGAINST VARIOUS BROWSERS. Sure no one likes doing that, but it’s important to follow the fast-pace ECMAScript adoption.
- rhacker 5y ago
  > TEST AGAINST VARIOUS BROWSERS I mean, how does that not just push all of this towards companies and open source solutions that provide access to old browsers and what not? I mean no matter what direction you push, it's going to be someone else's open source code that needs money.
  - bjornjajeja 5y ago
    You’re right that was an off topic note. I guess what I’m getting at is that most current browsers support very nice JavaScript features anyway. And instead of adding yet another layer between our code and the browser—embrace the current generation of (at this point very robust) language features available. And if that’s not good enough use something like TypeScript!
    - nsonha 5y ago
      > most current browsers support very nice JavaScript features anyway Maybe that's true for users in the western world. However, if you are in the asian market, there are popular browsers you've nerver heard of (some localized fork of chromium that's way behind). That is not to mention the poorer populace of the world still uses whatever that runs on WinXP or something, if they have Internet at all. As software engineers it's not our job to use technology to dictate (control) how people access information, telling them to use newer browsers and newer hardware and what not, our job is to support as many people out there as we can.

frakkingcylons 5y ago

> Will Rome Tools employees get called out and shamed in public if they don't have enough visibility on their github profile? An important difference is Rome Tools employees are being paid with VC money and not money from the community.

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago

Jesus. Maybe I am old-school, but if you have a disagreement or someone isn't holding themselves to a standard, you don't take it to Twitter to signal to in-crowd. Yes, even when it's a publicly funded open-source dev-tool. Just the usual immature behavior of super-genius developers who have no concept of professionalism since any company in the world will write them a yearly check of infinite money. Out-of-touch, know-it-all. Edit: I reread this. Adding that no one is perfect, everyone slips up, loses perspective, pouts/whines, etc... We are all human and remember a single angry tweet thread does not define a person. Twitter is toxic signal-fest that brings out the worst in people right or wrong. Cheers!

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nsonha 5y ago
Guy is pretty young (created babel in high school I read) so maybe that's part of it. I find that the older I get the more empathy I have.
- WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
  Wow, that’s amazing. Right on regarding empathy and age/experience. No one is really an awful person. Just petty drama...
  - cj 5y ago
    Mismanaging hundreds of thousands of dollars of charitable contributions goes a bit beyond petty drama in my opinion.
    - WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
      Ha, love the 10/10 spin there. - A joint decision was made how to split and pay maintainers. - A disagreement about performance / results has come from that. - Tweeting to rally the homies is immature (and quite embarrassing) way of solving a problem. I am not saying funds could not be reallocated differently. I’m saying the people involved with this are acting unprofessional / like children.

olingern 5y ago

There is a conflict of interest, but I wouldn't say it's 1-to-1. It's tough because I think the "optics of productivity" are somewhat important because money is involved. If I was concerned about things, I would have pinged someone in private months ago. Taking this to a public forum, leading with an accusation isn't the right thing to do regardless of how Babel.js was handling these things.

madjam002 5y ago

How is Rome Tools going to make money?

codezero 5y ago
Typical paths with OSS: - premium support - custom features / enterprise product offerings - commercial licensing - professional services/consultancy

mindfulmore 5y ago

deleted

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
> $130k in the United States is a joke You are out of touch my friend. I think you can cool it on the anger here too. It’s not helpful.
- mindfulmore 5y ago
  Neither is people piling on the maintainer of Babel based on GitHub activity and someone essentially accusing them of embezzlement. Sorry if that makes me upset. $130k for a senior developer in the United States is nothing. People at FANG are making 3-4x that annually.
  - WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
    > $130k for a senior developer in the United States is nothing. People at FANG are making 3-4x that annually. Right, hence my out of touch comment. This just doubles down.
    - asidiali 5y ago
      open source maintainer salary !== FAANG total comp package E5 engineers at FB are making an avg 200k base [1]. That is not that far off what you would expect the difference to be between open source maintainer and senior engineer at Facebook. That is not 3-4x. Even if you include stock, that will put the FB eng around 350k. You may have an argument for the 2-3x range but basically only at the very top level companies and senior roles, not mid level contributors. And by including stock or other forms of TC besides base, you begin inflating the impression of cash flow. Stock grants don’t land in your wallet like paychecks do. Your QoL or vested net worth will take time to be impacted. It’s not like all of a sudden you can now afford X% more in your daily life. IMO HN likes to exaggerate compensation levels. [1] https://www.levels.fyi/company/Facebook/salaries/Software-Engineer/E5/ https://www.levels.fyi/company/Facebook/salaries/Software-En...

polishdude20 5y ago

Yeah you just don't publically call out one of your employees. That's just a dick move at that point. Solve this problem internally and don't throw your developer under the bus because you didn't manage them better.

nsonha 5y ago
he doesn't manage babel. I think he's just saying this as a peer. It's bad regardless.

cfinn16 5y ago

Yeah, I'm admittedly just learning about this whole situation, but I fail to see how this isn't him just trying to take down the competition of his new project

digitaltrees 5y ago

Sounds like an effort to take down a competitor. If Rome tools is to replace Babel, people need to lose faith in Babel. Seems like a transparent conflict of interest.