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The demand for labor declined because we shipped it all overseas. People say automation and that’s true, but automation doesn’t seem to be stopping China from

by imgabe 5y ago

The demand for labor declined because we shipped it all overseas. People say automation and that’s true, but automation doesn’t seem to be stopping China from lifting millions of people out of poverty and giving them jobs, so I’m not sure why the US can’t do it. If you have more automation that doesn't necessarily mean you have fewer jobs, it can also mean you make more things.

mdorazio 5y ago
The US largely doesn’t have the stomach for it because it would require labor protections and significant tariffs/trade restrictions on goods produced via dirt cheap labor overseas. As soon as anyone tries that, the country loses its mind about “trade wars”.
- kasey_junk 5y ago
  Well that and expensive goods...
  - lumost 5y ago
    This is a more complicated question. If wages go up, then goods cost less relatively. If everything is made internally, then the price of goods can be substantially lower than it is when everything is imported. Compare the price level of Hawaii to the mainland USA. Food is expensive because it's imported, yet Hawaii has some of the most productive farmland in the world. Unfortunately that production goes to cash crops owned by global corporations, nearly eliminating all local food production.
    - gruez 5y ago
      >Unfortunately that production goes to cash crops owned by global corporations, nearly eliminating all local food production. "Unfortunately"? Clearly you haven't heard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage
      - lumost 5y ago
        The operative question here is who is benefiting from comparative advantage? In this case quite literally no resident of Hawaii benefits from the current situation. Sugar cane and coffee do not create good jobs relative to other agriculture and the exports drive up land and food staple prices.
- sthnblllII 5y ago
  Donald Trump was elected by promising a trade war. The people freaking out about a "labor shortage" and a "trade war" are on wall street and in the media. Real people understand free trade was a bait and switch. NAFTA was never popular, Clinton was elected to veto it and signed it instead.
  - redis_mlc 5y ago
    > The people freaking out about a "labor shortage" and a "trade war" are on wall street and in the media. It's much uglier than that: 1) Wall Street is funding the CCP government and BRI with trillions in US capital, and resisted Trump/Pompeo to the level of treason 2) Wall Street wants illegal immigration to keep labor costs low, and the Dems believe illegals will vote for them (a study done by Obama's administration said 80% would.) So it's a conspiracy against US immigration law.
robotresearcher 5y ago
The new thing seems to be a labour shortage in service industries, which must be sourced locally, unless and until it can be automated.
redis_mlc 5y ago
> automation doesn’t seem to be stopping China from lifting millions of people out of poverty and giving them jobs That's propaganda. Xi gave local governors the task of reporting that everybody was good, and they complied by faking the reports. The reality is that 1/7 of the Chinese population is either unemployed or underemployed, and the social welfare net is even less than the US. It gets better. After the 2020 floods and locusts, a large portion of the farmers were wiped out. China is currently importing 50% of some foods. Example of Cities Competing on Vaccine Counts with bribes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFf9rhz_u1Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFf9rhz_u1Q
readonthegoapp 5y ago
China/Xi cut their definition of 'poverty' in half: To make this claim, the Chinese government uses a poverty line of about $2.25 a day, in 2011 prices and adjusting for purchasing power. The World Bank believes ...For upper-middle-income countries like China, it reckons that a reasonable poverty line is $5.50 a day. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2021/01/25/deep-sixing-poverty-in-china/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2021/01/25... China is also into forced relocation, forced labor, etc. This information, to me, makes the China-automation evidence largely irrelevant in this discussion. And, small but not insignificant point, a lot of our labor also went south to Mexico, not overseas. Not sure what the percentages are.
mbrodersen 5y ago
Apparently 80% of job reductions is because of automation. 20% because of shipping jobs to other countries. Now China is investing heavily in automation to stay competitive.

by imgabe 5y ago

mdorazio 5y ago

The US largely doesn’t have the stomach for it because it would require labor protections and significant tariffs/trade restrictions on goods produced via dirt cheap labor overseas. As soon as anyone tries that, the country loses its mind about “trade wars”.

kasey_junk 5y ago
Well that and expensive goods...
- lumost 5y ago
  This is a more complicated question. If wages go up, then goods cost less relatively. If everything is made internally, then the price of goods can be substantially lower than it is when everything is imported. Compare the price level of Hawaii to the mainland USA. Food is expensive because it's imported, yet Hawaii has some of the most productive farmland in the world. Unfortunately that production goes to cash crops owned by global corporations, nearly eliminating all local food production.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >Unfortunately that production goes to cash crops owned by global corporations, nearly eliminating all local food production. "Unfortunately"? Clearly you haven't heard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage
    - lumost 5y ago
      The operative question here is who is benefiting from comparative advantage? In this case quite literally no resident of Hawaii benefits from the current situation. Sugar cane and coffee do not create good jobs relative to other agriculture and the exports drive up land and food staple prices.
sthnblllII 5y ago
Donald Trump was elected by promising a trade war. The people freaking out about a "labor shortage" and a "trade war" are on wall street and in the media. Real people understand free trade was a bait and switch. NAFTA was never popular, Clinton was elected to veto it and signed it instead.
- redis_mlc 5y ago
  > The people freaking out about a "labor shortage" and a "trade war" are on wall street and in the media. It's much uglier than that: 1) Wall Street is funding the CCP government and BRI with trillions in US capital, and resisted Trump/Pompeo to the level of treason 2) Wall Street wants illegal immigration to keep labor costs low, and the Dems believe illegals will vote for them (a study done by Obama's administration said 80% would.) So it's a conspiracy against US immigration law.

robotresearcher 5y ago

The new thing seems to be a labour shortage in service industries, which must be sourced locally, unless and until it can be automated.

redis_mlc 5y ago

> automation doesn’t seem to be stopping China from lifting millions of people out of poverty and giving them jobs That's propaganda. Xi gave local governors the task of reporting that everybody was good, and they complied by faking the reports. The reality is that 1/7 of the Chinese population is either unemployed or underemployed, and the social welfare net is even less than the US. It gets better. After the 2020 floods and locusts, a large portion of the farmers were wiped out. China is currently importing 50% of some foods. Example of Cities Competing on Vaccine Counts with bribes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFf9rhz_u1Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFf9rhz_u1Q

readonthegoapp 5y ago

China/Xi cut their definition of 'poverty' in half: To make this claim, the Chinese government uses a poverty line of about $2.25 a day, in 2011 prices and adjusting for purchasing power. The World Bank believes ...For upper-middle-income countries like China, it reckons that a reasonable poverty line is $5.50 a day. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2021/01/25/deep-sixing-poverty-in-china/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/future-development/2021/01/25... China is also into forced relocation, forced labor, etc. This information, to me, makes the China-automation evidence largely irrelevant in this discussion. And, small but not insignificant point, a lot of our labor also went south to Mexico, not overseas. Not sure what the percentages are.

mbrodersen 5y ago

Apparently 80% of job reductions is because of automation. 20% because of shipping jobs to other countries. Now China is investing heavily in automation to stay competitive.