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How much do these ultra successful types actually over-work and how much is just posturing to trick the underlings to over-work? In American Psycho Patrick Bat

How much do these ultra successful types actually over-work and how much is just posturing to trick the underlings to over-work? In American Psycho Patrick Bateman has it pretty chill, spending all his working hours on watching TV, reading magazines and talking trash with his peers. I used to think it was just another example of how unhinged he was, but maybe it’s a comment on some kind of double standard on workload vs. compensation in the corporate life.

brutal_chaos_ 5y ago
That is a great take on it! My take was the higher up you go, the more meaningless the work is. As in paper pusher vs innovator. Though I imagine near to and at C level it may be different.
maxqin1 5y ago
It's all posturing. Why wouldn't it be? Leadership is all about "leveraging great people" right? So it makes sense to keep up the appearance if it means an extra X% output. And that's not even considering the management of expectations to prevent complaints about income inequality. I mean, you didn't work 80+ hour weeks, so, who are you to complain?
throwagrayson 5y ago
No, they're just smarter, faster, bolder, and harder working, and they have social circles that mirror those qualities.
- drunkpotato 5y ago
  I honestly can't tell if this is sincere or sarcasm.
  - weasel_words 5y ago
    Sarcasm or not, this is how life is. Hang with people who are one trait and you tend to become that trait. Hang with people who are not, and you'll tend not to be either. If you want to "chill", hang with those people. If you want to "work hard", hang with those people. I'm not judging, I'm just saying. Choose your circle of friends wisely.
  - throwagrayson 5y ago
    My experience has always been that people who don't marry into their wealth are extremely competent, and even the ones who do often are. But I know mine is a minority opinion on these types of boards.
rasputnik6502 5y ago
> is just posturing to trick the underlings to over-work? This. There's nothing bad in wanting to do a great job but most often you're not the one to benefit from that. Especially software devs, some of them can work miracles almost for free, just to get some recognition (but not too much, we don't want them to think they provide something extraordinary )
A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
I am sure there are instances. I can't really speak for everyone and generalize for an entire management class, but in our company, it does not appear to be just posturing for managers and middle managers. Getting someone for 15 to 30 minute window can sometimes be rather hard. I see my manager in and out of meetings all day ( some are pointless so he can do some of his actual work ), some are a shit show where he needs to actively participate just to keep things afloat, some are something in between. I do not know if he is an exception, but buddy that just got promoted said she is having the same issue. Metric ton of stuff to do and no time do it in. Doing more after 6 or w/e your 'end time' is seems common here. And I had a taste of something similar myself. Project dropped out of the sky on my plate with due date a little too close for comfort. So what do you do? If you want to deliver, something has got to give..
- sirmoveon 5y ago
  Just because they are in management doesn't mean they are outside of the scope of an underling.
- pmiller2 5y ago
  > Project dropped out of the sky on my plate with due date a little too close for comfort. So what do you do? Obviously, this project wasn't important enough to be given to you with enough time to get it done. Deadlines are often artificial, and this is probably what it was. In the absence of any specifics, I'd say push back on the deadline, negotiate for what you need to deliver something acceptable within a reasonable time, and don't kill yourself for it. If you do kill yourself for this one project, that just sets an expectation for next time that you don't want to have set.
  - Frost1x 5y ago
    I've worked with a lot of environments before where these deadlines aren't artificial. Usually these are projects dictated and agreed to by non-technical staff, then handed to technical staff to figure out. I assumed they were artificial, then I look at official signed contracts with deliverables and dates and die a bit inside. "We said we'd give them X, Y, Z by A for $N. Let's see how close we can get to it." Is not abnormal from my experience with major clients as well. I work in R&D so there is usually an expectation of delays and failures but in this world, the client has an idea of what they want and an upper budget if what they'll spend. People try and feel this out to get as close to their budget as possible and as little as the client with agree to for that budget. Actual budgeting based on requirements and planning doesn't happen, you simply grab the opportunity and run with it. Yes, much of R&D is complete shit show.
xwolfi 5y ago
I've noticed a lot of americans actually are posturing about work hours. I was very surprised, me a French supposed to do 35 hours, to see american colleagues leave around 5pm
disabled 5y ago
It is basically a status and class indicator in American society, particularly for the upper middle class and the upper class. If you read "The Meritocracy Myth" by Yale University law professor Stephen McNamee, you will understand the game being played here quite well. There are upper class Americans in particular who basically work extremely long hours (80-105 hour work weeks) to game the system, with no net productivity gains whatsoever compared to the middle and upper middle class who typically work 40-60 hour work weeks at maximum. In fact, the productivity gains generally wane off at about 32 hours per week, and we really do not need longer work hours in modern society, unless it is for the upper class to "protect" their status. Just like sleep is critical, rest is critical too, for recharging, so you can do a good job at work. The health effects of working extremely long hours, even if it affords you things and experiences others do not have, are just simply not worth it. My father, who grew up as a very indignant American youth, who literally paid for all of his clothes starting by age 12, knew how to play this game very well. He was able to transcend the poor, working, and middle classes, and was comfortably in the upper middle class as senior level management, in the private sector, in finance, as a certified public accountant by training, by the time I was born. At my grandmother's funeral (his mother's funeral) people wished they were industrious as he was in his youth! The sad part about it is he died before he turned 60, and before his mother. It comes at a huge price.
- ewestern 5y ago
  > There are upper class Americans in particular who basically work extremely long hours (80-105 hour work weeks) to game the system, with no net productivity gains whatsoever compared to the middle and upper middle class who typically work 40-60 hour work weeks at maximum. In fact, the productivity gains generally wane off at about 32 hours per week, and we really do not need longer work hours in modern society There is some confused language being used here. If you're saying the marginal productivity of the 81st hour worked in a week is 0, then that is almost certainly wrong. If you're saying that the marginal productivity of the 81st hour in a week is less than that of the 32nd hour, that may well be true, but if so, nothing else of what you said follows from that.
  - disabled 5y ago
mjfl 5y ago
American psycho is a movie.
- jfoutz 5y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Psycho https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Psycho I think this is a pretty clever meta comment, but for those who don’t know, it’s a quite graphic book. I never had the stomach for it.
  - ta988 5y ago
    His adoration for Trump makes that book worth a read now.
mjrbrennan 5y ago
I think in American Psycho Bateman and his friends are already super rich before even going into work, having been born into wealth as "trust fund kids". I am pretty sure, unless I remember incorrectly, that Pearce & Pearce, the firm they all work for, is part-owned by Bateman's father, or he at least had the connections to get him the job there? They all have a Vice President title too, so it seems like in that instance they are all just given cushy jobs with nepotism.

brutal_chaos_ 5y ago

That is a great take on it! My take was the higher up you go, the more meaningless the work is. As in paper pusher vs innovator. Though I imagine near to and at C level it may be different.

maxqin1 5y ago

It's all posturing. Why wouldn't it be? Leadership is all about "leveraging great people" right? So it makes sense to keep up the appearance if it means an extra X% output. And that's not even considering the management of expectations to prevent complaints about income inequality. I mean, you didn't work 80+ hour weeks, so, who are you to complain?

throwagrayson 5y ago

No, they're just smarter, faster, bolder, and harder working, and they have social circles that mirror those qualities.

drunkpotato 5y ago
I honestly can't tell if this is sincere or sarcasm.
- weasel_words 5y ago
  Sarcasm or not, this is how life is. Hang with people who are one trait and you tend to become that trait. Hang with people who are not, and you'll tend not to be either. If you want to "chill", hang with those people. If you want to "work hard", hang with those people. I'm not judging, I'm just saying. Choose your circle of friends wisely.
- throwagrayson 5y ago
  My experience has always been that people who don't marry into their wealth are extremely competent, and even the ones who do often are. But I know mine is a minority opinion on these types of boards.

rasputnik6502 5y ago

> is just posturing to trick the underlings to over-work? This. There's nothing bad in wanting to do a great job but most often you're not the one to benefit from that. Especially software devs, some of them can work miracles almost for free, just to get some recognition (but not too much, we don't want them to think they provide something extraordinary )

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago

I am sure there are instances. I can't really speak for everyone and generalize for an entire management class, but in our company, it does not appear to be just posturing for managers and middle managers. Getting someone for 15 to 30 minute window can sometimes be rather hard. I see my manager in and out of meetings all day ( some are pointless so he can do some of his actual work ), some are a shit show where he needs to actively participate just to keep things afloat, some are something in between. I do not know if he is an exception, but buddy that just got promoted said she is having the same issue. Metric ton of stuff to do and no time do it in. Doing more after 6 or w/e your 'end time' is seems common here. And I had a taste of something similar myself. Project dropped out of the sky on my plate with due date a little too close for comfort. So what do you do? If you want to deliver, something has got to give..

sirmoveon 5y ago
Just because they are in management doesn't mean they are outside of the scope of an underling.
pmiller2 5y ago
> Project dropped out of the sky on my plate with due date a little too close for comfort. So what do you do? Obviously, this project wasn't important enough to be given to you with enough time to get it done. Deadlines are often artificial, and this is probably what it was. In the absence of any specifics, I'd say push back on the deadline, negotiate for what you need to deliver something acceptable within a reasonable time, and don't kill yourself for it. If you do kill yourself for this one project, that just sets an expectation for next time that you don't want to have set.
- Frost1x 5y ago
  I've worked with a lot of environments before where these deadlines aren't artificial. Usually these are projects dictated and agreed to by non-technical staff, then handed to technical staff to figure out. I assumed they were artificial, then I look at official signed contracts with deliverables and dates and die a bit inside. "We said we'd give them X, Y, Z by A for $N. Let's see how close we can get to it." Is not abnormal from my experience with major clients as well. I work in R&D so there is usually an expectation of delays and failures but in this world, the client has an idea of what they want and an upper budget if what they'll spend. People try and feel this out to get as close to their budget as possible and as little as the client with agree to for that budget. Actual budgeting based on requirements and planning doesn't happen, you simply grab the opportunity and run with it. Yes, much of R&D is complete shit show.

xwolfi 5y ago

I've noticed a lot of americans actually are posturing about work hours. I was very surprised, me a French supposed to do 35 hours, to see american colleagues leave around 5pm

disabled 5y ago

It is basically a status and class indicator in American society, particularly for the upper middle class and the upper class. If you read "The Meritocracy Myth" by Yale University law professor Stephen McNamee, you will understand the game being played here quite well. There are upper class Americans in particular who basically work extremely long hours (80-105 hour work weeks) to game the system, with no net productivity gains whatsoever compared to the middle and upper middle class who typically work 40-60 hour work weeks at maximum. In fact, the productivity gains generally wane off at about 32 hours per week, and we really do not need longer work hours in modern society, unless it is for the upper class to "protect" their status. Just like sleep is critical, rest is critical too, for recharging, so you can do a good job at work. The health effects of working extremely long hours, even if it affords you things and experiences others do not have, are just simply not worth it. My father, who grew up as a very indignant American youth, who literally paid for all of his clothes starting by age 12, knew how to play this game very well. He was able to transcend the poor, working, and middle classes, and was comfortably in the upper middle class as senior level management, in the private sector, in finance, as a certified public accountant by training, by the time I was born. At my grandmother's funeral (his mother's funeral) people wished they were industrious as he was in his youth! The sad part about it is he died before he turned 60, and before his mother. It comes at a huge price.

ewestern 5y ago
> There are upper class Americans in particular who basically work extremely long hours (80-105 hour work weeks) to game the system, with no net productivity gains whatsoever compared to the middle and upper middle class who typically work 40-60 hour work weeks at maximum. In fact, the productivity gains generally wane off at about 32 hours per week, and we really do not need longer work hours in modern society There is some confused language being used here. If you're saying the marginal productivity of the 81st hour worked in a week is 0, then that is almost certainly wrong. If you're saying that the marginal productivity of the 81st hour in a week is less than that of the 32nd hour, that may well be true, but if so, nothing else of what you said follows from that.
- disabled 5y ago

mjfl 5y ago

American psycho is a movie.

jfoutz 5y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Psycho https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Psycho I think this is a pretty clever meta comment, but for those who don’t know, it’s a quite graphic book. I never had the stomach for it.
- ta988 5y ago
  His adoration for Trump makes that book worth a read now.

mjrbrennan 5y ago

I think in American Psycho Bateman and his friends are already super rich before even going into work, having been born into wealth as "trust fund kids". I am pretty sure, unless I remember incorrectly, that Pearce & Pearce, the firm they all work for, is part-owned by Bateman's father, or he at least had the connections to get him the job there? They all have a Vice President title too, so it seems like in that instance they are all just given cushy jobs with nepotism.