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Both are correct. The state of computer security is unacceptable and needs to be fixed. Today its profit-motivated extortionists, but anything they can do is a

Both are correct. The state of computer security is unacceptable and needs to be fixed. Today its profit-motivated extortionists, but anything they can do is also an option for spy agencies, and is it really that hard to imagine anti-oil activists pulling the same stunt some day? On the other hand, crypto is the thing behind the profit motive. If crypto is impractical (if there were no way to convert it to real currency), the profit incentives for these attacks (and mining, for that matter) break down. I realize this isn't a popular opinion around here, but we should probably do both.

randomhodler84 5y ago
Yes, we need to ban math. Math is the root of cryptography; which is the root of cryptocurrency. Ultimately it’s numbers. They are the worst. Everything bad comes from the interaction of points on elliptic curves. Get out of here with this.
- echelon 5y ago
  Cryptocurrency, not math and cryptography. Cryptocurrency is a bunch of people thinking their bets are more important than the government's control levers of monetary and fiscal policy. They'd rather make a quick buck and disregard the fact that this takes away our government's sovereignty. Our government's ability to bail out the economy, protect its most vulnerable. It's more important that the Winklevosses and early supporters get all the economic upside, and it's just fine if the US dollar slides into the abyss. Lower income folks surely won't get screwed by this. Nevermind the fact that cryptocurrency is destroying the environment. That's just a minor detail. Cryptocurrency is selfishness and hubris. All the smart people working on this insanity would be doing the planet much better if they were working on fixing social media or making tools for cancer researchers. I'm not for telling people what to do with their lives, but this observation seems pretty obvious to me.
  - randomhodler84 5y ago
    It isn’t, and you might be a little misinformed. But it’s ok, you can scream into the abyss as long as you like. We don’t want to cure cancer (don’t know how). We want to free the world of the tyranny of central banking, debt-based economies and theft of savings through inflation. It is a noble endeavor. Selfishness is continuing along the old broken road. There are new, better ones.
    - DangitBobby 5y ago
      How do cryptocurrencies save you from a debt based economy or inflation? Don't you still need to pay for goods and services in the same debt-based economy? How does the flavor of money change whether someone needs to go into debt? What would prevent cryptocurrency values from inflating or deflating?
      - gspr 5y ago
        It's best not to ask. I'm starting to believe that these people are exhibiting cult-like behavior at this point.
      - randomhodler84 5y ago
        I think the answer to those questions has been answered more eloquently elsewhere. They are good questions, and have complex and nuanced answers. I wish you luck in your quest.
        DangitBobby 5y ago
        Well, you have been convinced of these things so it seemed like you might have stumbled across convincing resources. I'm sure there's a bunch of garbage to filter through on this topic on the open internet.
      - adventured 5y ago
        A large cryptocurrency like Bitcoin is entirely capable of functioning like gold as a hedge against fiat inflation. I'm not much of a crypto cultist (which is the latest trend here on HN, to tag anybody that defends crypto with that to shut down conversation), however it's extraordinarily obvious at this point how cryptocurrencies can help you evade inflation in eg USD or evade the debt damage to the US economy. Bitcoin for its part is global and not primarily dependent on the condition of the US economy, and it's likely to become increasingly global and even less dependent on the US over time. > Don't you still need to pay for goods and services in the same debt-based economy Of course. This is a case where crypto is even better than gold. It's particularly trivial to convert in and out of traditional fiat. Surely you understand enough about cryptocurrencies at this point to know how easy that is. And it appears likely to keep getting easier, given the effort companies like Coinbase, Robinhood and Square are putting into it (check out what Square did in its latest quarter courtesy crypto). > How does the flavor of money change whether someone needs to go into debt? The parent said debt based economies. The US has an economy and government system that is increasingly drowning in debt (check out the corporate balance sheets in the US; nationally it's horrific; that situation has been spurred on by the Fed's forever low interest rates, which encourages corporations to take on ever greater sums of debt because it's artificially cheap, which will ultimately lead to zombies ala Japan). The Federal answer to that is to print ever increasing sums of fiat USD, because there are no foreign buyers left that can absorb tens of trillions in new US government debt. The Fed unavoidably becomes the primary buyer of the US Government's debt (this is where a nation begins eating itself; that began for the US over a decade ago now as a trickle, that trickle is picking up pace). Once upon a time not so long ago it was a huge deal that China held a trillion dollars of US government debt, now that sum is a joke, a mere portion of one spending program this week or next. That's how quickly the US is imploding fiscally. How does Bitcoin help you with that if you're stuck in a debt based economy? Well it's very obvious. The Fed will keep printing aggressively to fund the US Government's finances. And the Fed will have to hold interest rates as low as possible forever now, because the US Government can't afford its debt any longer at normal interest rates (3% * $40 trillion = bye bye social security or medicare or the US military). That need by the US to inflate massively, to constantly debase the rapidly expanding monster pile of debt, can be hedged via gold, sometimes via high quality stocks, and possibly via crypto (pick the one/s you think will endure). And as this all gets worse, the tax hikes have to keep getting worse, which will choke off growth, which accelerates the stagnation and makes everything that much worse. All in all, the average rate of growth in the US economy will keep sinking toward zero. Given enough time, somewhere between 10 and 20 years depending on how wild the clowns in DC get with spending, they'll have to begin directly debasing the USD to accomplish their goals (they'll promptly educate the public on how it's economically beneficial to devalue their currency), it won't be enough to do it slowly. There's nothing novel about any of this, we already know exactly what the playbook looks like, see: Japan. The US will be able to maneuver a little better than Japan has courtesy of having the global reserve currency (although at the rate they're destroying things, that global reserve position will drop out even faster than it was otherwise going to). The only way Bitcoin & Co aren't useful given where the US is obviously going at this point, is if the powers that be get so desperate about the context that they outlaw crypto or otherwise make it very impractical (artificially add enormous cost to owning it, via tax or regulation).
  - LMYahooTFY 5y ago
    > Our government's ability to bail out the economy, protect its most vulnerable. How did the bailouts in 2008 help the vulnerable people who were subjected to predatory loans and lost their homes? > Nevermind the fact that cryptocurrency is destroying the environment. That's just a minor detail. Can you back this up with any data? Just went through a paper published on this topic by a couple of environmental researchers and the methodology was quite awful, and the authors did not understand mining. I'm happy to discuss any data you have. I'm a bit pessimistic because you don't sound open to the idea that cryptocurrencies have any value at all.
    - imtringued 5y ago
      >How did the bailouts in 2008 help the vulnerable people who were subjected to predatory loans and lost their homes? They didn't but they kept the banking infrastructure alive. What I never understand however is that the government doesn't give that bailout money in exchange for newly issued shares which they then sell for a profit once the bank is back on its feet.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    >They'd rather make a quick buck and disregard the fact that this takes away our government's sovereignty. This isn't true. For every person buying Bitcoin thinking they are hedging themselves against inflation there is someone who sells Bitcoin because they think the exact opposite. So this doesn't take the government's sovereignty because someone ends up with a lot of USD at the other end and you can still apply things like negative interest rates on accounts with huge balances. Ironically Bitcoin is a very poor inflation hedge because of its periodic bubbles and extreme volatility. The bubble can pop exactly the moment inflation goes up and ruin the "hedge" until the next bubble exceeds the current all time high again.

randomhodler84 5y ago

Yes, we need to ban math. Math is the root of cryptography; which is the root of cryptocurrency. Ultimately it’s numbers. They are the worst. Everything bad comes from the interaction of points on elliptic curves. Get out of here with this.

echelon 5y ago
Cryptocurrency, not math and cryptography. Cryptocurrency is a bunch of people thinking their bets are more important than the government's control levers of monetary and fiscal policy. They'd rather make a quick buck and disregard the fact that this takes away our government's sovereignty. Our government's ability to bail out the economy, protect its most vulnerable. It's more important that the Winklevosses and early supporters get all the economic upside, and it's just fine if the US dollar slides into the abyss. Lower income folks surely won't get screwed by this. Nevermind the fact that cryptocurrency is destroying the environment. That's just a minor detail. Cryptocurrency is selfishness and hubris. All the smart people working on this insanity would be doing the planet much better if they were working on fixing social media or making tools for cancer researchers. I'm not for telling people what to do with their lives, but this observation seems pretty obvious to me.
- randomhodler84 5y ago
  It isn’t, and you might be a little misinformed. But it’s ok, you can scream into the abyss as long as you like. We don’t want to cure cancer (don’t know how). We want to free the world of the tyranny of central banking, debt-based economies and theft of savings through inflation. It is a noble endeavor. Selfishness is continuing along the old broken road. There are new, better ones.
  - DangitBobby 5y ago
    How do cryptocurrencies save you from a debt based economy or inflation? Don't you still need to pay for goods and services in the same debt-based economy? How does the flavor of money change whether someone needs to go into debt? What would prevent cryptocurrency values from inflating or deflating?
    - gspr 5y ago
      It's best not to ask. I'm starting to believe that these people are exhibiting cult-like behavior at this point.
    - randomhodler84 5y ago
      I think the answer to those questions has been answered more eloquently elsewhere. They are good questions, and have complex and nuanced answers. I wish you luck in your quest.
      - DangitBobby 5y ago
        Well, you have been convinced of these things so it seemed like you might have stumbled across convincing resources. I'm sure there's a bunch of garbage to filter through on this topic on the open internet.
    - adventured 5y ago
      A large cryptocurrency like Bitcoin is entirely capable of functioning like gold as a hedge against fiat inflation. I'm not much of a crypto cultist (which is the latest trend here on HN, to tag anybody that defends crypto with that to shut down conversation), however it's extraordinarily obvious at this point how cryptocurrencies can help you evade inflation in eg USD or evade the debt damage to the US economy. Bitcoin for its part is global and not primarily dependent on the condition of the US economy, and it's likely to become increasingly global and even less dependent on the US over time. > Don't you still need to pay for goods and services in the same debt-based economy Of course. This is a case where crypto is even better than gold. It's particularly trivial to convert in and out of traditional fiat. Surely you understand enough about cryptocurrencies at this point to know how easy that is. And it appears likely to keep getting easier, given the effort companies like Coinbase, Robinhood and Square are putting into it (check out what Square did in its latest quarter courtesy crypto). > How does the flavor of money change whether someone needs to go into debt? The parent said debt based economies. The US has an economy and government system that is increasingly drowning in debt (check out the corporate balance sheets in the US; nationally it's horrific; that situation has been spurred on by the Fed's forever low interest rates, which encourages corporations to take on ever greater sums of debt because it's artificially cheap, which will ultimately lead to zombies ala Japan). The Federal answer to that is to print ever increasing sums of fiat USD, because there are no foreign buyers left that can absorb tens of trillions in new US government debt. The Fed unavoidably becomes the primary buyer of the US Government's debt (this is where a nation begins eating itself; that began for the US over a decade ago now as a trickle, that trickle is picking up pace). Once upon a time not so long ago it was a huge deal that China held a trillion dollars of US government debt, now that sum is a joke, a mere portion of one spending program this week or next. That's how quickly the US is imploding fiscally. How does Bitcoin help you with that if you're stuck in a debt based economy? Well it's very obvious. The Fed will keep printing aggressively to fund the US Government's finances. And the Fed will have to hold interest rates as low as possible forever now, because the US Government can't afford its debt any longer at normal interest rates (3% * $40 trillion = bye bye social security or medicare or the US military). That need by the US to inflate massively, to constantly debase the rapidly expanding monster pile of debt, can be hedged via gold, sometimes via high quality stocks, and possibly via crypto (pick the one/s you think will endure). And as this all gets worse, the tax hikes have to keep getting worse, which will choke off growth, which accelerates the stagnation and makes everything that much worse. All in all, the average rate of growth in the US economy will keep sinking toward zero. Given enough time, somewhere between 10 and 20 years depending on how wild the clowns in DC get with spending, they'll have to begin directly debasing the USD to accomplish their goals (they'll promptly educate the public on how it's economically beneficial to devalue their currency), it won't be enough to do it slowly. There's nothing novel about any of this, we already know exactly what the playbook looks like, see: Japan. The US will be able to maneuver a little better than Japan has courtesy of having the global reserve currency (although at the rate they're destroying things, that global reserve position will drop out even faster than it was otherwise going to). The only way Bitcoin & Co aren't useful given where the US is obviously going at this point, is if the powers that be get so desperate about the context that they outlaw crypto or otherwise make it very impractical (artificially add enormous cost to owning it, via tax or regulation).
- LMYahooTFY 5y ago
  > Our government's ability to bail out the economy, protect its most vulnerable. How did the bailouts in 2008 help the vulnerable people who were subjected to predatory loans and lost their homes? > Nevermind the fact that cryptocurrency is destroying the environment. That's just a minor detail. Can you back this up with any data? Just went through a paper published on this topic by a couple of environmental researchers and the methodology was quite awful, and the authors did not understand mining. I'm happy to discuss any data you have. I'm a bit pessimistic because you don't sound open to the idea that cryptocurrencies have any value at all.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    >How did the bailouts in 2008 help the vulnerable people who were subjected to predatory loans and lost their homes? They didn't but they kept the banking infrastructure alive. What I never understand however is that the government doesn't give that bailout money in exchange for newly issued shares which they then sell for a profit once the bank is back on its feet.
- imtringued 5y ago
  >They'd rather make a quick buck and disregard the fact that this takes away our government's sovereignty. This isn't true. For every person buying Bitcoin thinking they are hedging themselves against inflation there is someone who sells Bitcoin because they think the exact opposite. So this doesn't take the government's sovereignty because someone ends up with a lot of USD at the other end and you can still apply things like negative interest rates on accounts with huge balances. Ironically Bitcoin is a very poor inflation hedge because of its periodic bubbles and extreme volatility. The bubble can pop exactly the moment inflation goes up and ruin the "hedge" until the next bubble exceeds the current all time high again.