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Child's burial 78k years ago in Kenya was a Homo sapiens milestone

101 points by tyjaksn 5y ago

jart 5y ago
> Only humans treat the dead with the same respect, consideration and even tenderness they treat the living. Humans probably learned it from elephants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_cognition#Death_ritual https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_cognition#Death_ritua...
- JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
  I doubt we learned it from elephants, rather it is a product of higher consciousness. Empathy with another being and realizing it can be lost.
  - yakubin 5y ago
    It isn't an inevitable product though. E.g.[1]: > Mongolian culture is famous, along with Tibetans, for "sky burial," which leaves the body of the deceased on a high unprotected place to be exposed to the elements and devoured by wildlife. It's part of a Vajrayana Buddhist outlook about the needlessness of "respecting" the body after death. Personally, I'd prefer if this was what would happen to my body than any Western ritual. Alas, in the West we have laws which, in practice, impose religious precepts long after the states are secular on paper. [1]: https://www.bustle.com/articles/97030-5-interesting-death-and-funeral-rituals-around-the-world-from-mongolia-to-sweden https://www.bustle.com/articles/97030-5-interesting-death-an...
    - ekianjo 5y ago
      > It isn't an inevitable product though. E.g.[1]: Yes, and there are still tribes that eat the flesh of the dead - this was a major cause of what we identified later on as prion-related diseases: https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/09/06/482952588/when-people-ate-people-a-strange-disease-emerged https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/09/06/482952588/wh...
    - spockz 5y ago
      I would say that by now the laws more represent social norms and habits rather than religious precepts. (Even though they come from those precepts originally.)
    - KONAir 5y ago
      Serious question; How is Mongolian "return to nature" similar with Tibetian "We have no space for burial grounds" similar? Isn't this more of a case of flexible religion or more of a flexible "monk" trying to fit in as many traditions as possible into one religion?
      - yakubin 5y ago
        The practice is similar. The motivation is different. The quoted paragraph may be phrased a bit poorly. I don't think the Mongolian practice has anything to do with Buddhism.
    - phenkdo 5y ago
      It's not Buddhism per se, The Zoroastrians (religion of pre-islamic Persia) also practice this by leaving the bodies in "towers of silence" for birds of prey to devour them.
      - yakubin 5y ago
        Yes. I think the author of the paragraph wrote about Buddhism in the context of Tibetans. It isn't applicable to Mongols as well.
      - selimthegrim 5y ago
        Mongols and Tibetans probably got it from them given their original location in Bactria/Margiana
RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
>"The child was buried in a residential site, close to where this community lived, evincing how intimately life and death are related. Only humans treat the dead with the same respect, consideration and even tenderness they treat the living. Even when we die, we continue to be someone for our group," Martinón-Torres added. > "This would likely have been a group act, perhaps by members of the child's family. All of these behaviors are, of course, very similar to those observed in our own species today, so we can relate to this act even though the burial dates to 78,000 years ago," said study co-author Nicole Boivin, an archaeologist and director at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Germany. You have to be careful drawing inferences. Human sacrifice victims were also many times buried with great care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Llullaillaco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Llullaillaco Given the prevalence of childhood mortality in ancient and pre-historic times, an elaborate burial of a child has a pretty good chance of being part of some ritual sacrifice.
stareatgoats 5y ago
Interesting as this is, the article nurtures an old misconception (with roots both in religion and classical philosophy) that there are some traits that distinctly separates humans from other animals, and by extension, finding the time when humans developed that trait is when we became truly humans. In reality the evidence reveals that all such traits, be it burial, toolmaking, artistry, abstract thinking etc, is something we share with other species to varying degrees. To the extent we have any unique such traits currently that radically sets us apart from other species then it has been a long and gradual process over eons. In the case of burials, this old misconception places a ridiculously high bar on proof that other species revere their dead. Case in point being that of Homo Naledi, admittedly a Homo but not a human by a long shot that clearly practiced burials in inaccessible cave structures. [0] [0] https://humangenesis.org/2016/05/18/did-homo-naledi-bury-its-dead/ https://humangenesis.org/2016/05/18/did-homo-naledi-bury-its...
- ekianjo 5y ago
  > evidence reveals that all such traits, be it burial, toolmaking, artistry, abstract thinking etc, is something we share with other species to varying degrees If actual achievements speak louder than words, then "varying degrees" is a huge gap between human and other species. Yes, we know that numerous animals exhibit intelligence and emotions, but that does not change the fact that humans are very different when it comes to the understanding of time and everything that goes with it. Also, there is no other animal out there who domesticated fire or developed some kind of societal system to expands its own resources beyond what's available in the wild.
  - stareatgoats 5y ago
    The argument can be applied to all species - it is engrained in the ongoing diversification process of life itself: all species by definition have traits that set them apart from others, more or less radically. It is mostly a matter of what perspective you want to apply: are the differences the most important, or the similarities. But the main point I was trying to make was really this: > To the extent we have any unique such traits currently that radically sets us apart from other species then it has been a long and gradual process over eons I.e. there is no need to find a specific point where all that makes us human came into place. It all happened gradually, albeit with some leaps and bounds for different traits, at different times for different things, and we carry the legacy of all those millions of years with us, not just the last 200 KY. And we share substantial amounts of traits with other species.
intricatedetail 5y ago
Why people desperately need to set themselves apart from other animals? Seems like the mass killings of Chickens, Cows, Pigs and so on make some uncomfortable.
nnamtr 5y ago
I always wonder when I read articles like this, what people would think if they were told that 78000 summers later many people will be thinking about this specific burial.
- f6v 5y ago
  They'd ask: "What is 78000?"
  - 1123581321 5y ago
    Evidence of humans quantifying is roughly as old as this burial. The communication difficulty here would come from translating 78,000 into their mathematical system.
    - ShamelessC 5y ago
      And yet the punchline is still valid because surely they have no concept of numbers that large without any sort of base system involved.
      - 1123581321 5y ago
        Sure, if requiring a minimum of translation as a premise (i.e. not introducing the concept of orders into the language via explanation.) Though I would be surprised if sexagesimal turns out to always be the oldest system we unearth.
quattrofan 5y ago
Here we go again this nonsense often from anthropology that people use to justify our mistreatment of animals "Only humans treat the dead with the same respect, consideration and even tenderness they treat the living. Even when we die, we continue to be someone for our group". This is simply not true, elephants, whales and others have been seen to do this.
coward76 5y ago
We should stop digging up graves.
- alextheparrot 5y ago
  It’ll be a few years before we move off petrol.
jb1991 5y ago
>Only humans treat the dead with the same respect, consideration and even tenderness they treat the living. Even when we die, we continue to be someone for our group," Is this true? Elephants walk very far, as a group, to mourn years later the loss of a member from their family, by returning to where it died. Why would we think humans are so special in this regard?
singularity2001 5y ago
Quoth Wiki: Though there is ongoing debate regarding the reliability of the dating method, some scholars believe the earliest human burial dates back 100,000 years. Human skeletal remains stained with red ochre were discovered in the Skhul cave at Qafzeh, Israel. A variety of grave goods were present at the site, including the mandible of a wild boar in the arms of one of the skeletons
AntiImperialist 5y ago
What makes humans humans is ritual burning of the dead, quickly returning all of the body into the elements, while reducing the chances of pathogens spreading. Burial is retarded for many reasons.

101 points by tyjaksn 5y ago

jart 5y ago

> Only humans treat the dead with the same respect, consideration and even tenderness they treat the living. Humans probably learned it from elephants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_cognition#Death_ritual https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_cognition#Death_ritua...

JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
I doubt we learned it from elephants, rather it is a product of higher consciousness. Empathy with another being and realizing it can be lost.
- yakubin 5y ago
  It isn't an inevitable product though. E.g.[1]: > Mongolian culture is famous, along with Tibetans, for "sky burial," which leaves the body of the deceased on a high unprotected place to be exposed to the elements and devoured by wildlife. It's part of a Vajrayana Buddhist outlook about the needlessness of "respecting" the body after death. Personally, I'd prefer if this was what would happen to my body than any Western ritual. Alas, in the West we have laws which, in practice, impose religious precepts long after the states are secular on paper. [1]: https://www.bustle.com/articles/97030-5-interesting-death-and-funeral-rituals-around-the-world-from-mongolia-to-sweden https://www.bustle.com/articles/97030-5-interesting-death-an...
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    > It isn't an inevitable product though. E.g.[1]: Yes, and there are still tribes that eat the flesh of the dead - this was a major cause of what we identified later on as prion-related diseases: https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/09/06/482952588/when-people-ate-people-a-strange-disease-emerged https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/09/06/482952588/wh...
  - spockz 5y ago
    I would say that by now the laws more represent social norms and habits rather than religious precepts. (Even though they come from those precepts originally.)
  - KONAir 5y ago
    Serious question; How is Mongolian "return to nature" similar with Tibetian "We have no space for burial grounds" similar? Isn't this more of a case of flexible religion or more of a flexible "monk" trying to fit in as many traditions as possible into one religion?
    - yakubin 5y ago
      The practice is similar. The motivation is different. The quoted paragraph may be phrased a bit poorly. I don't think the Mongolian practice has anything to do with Buddhism.
  - phenkdo 5y ago
    It's not Buddhism per se, The Zoroastrians (religion of pre-islamic Persia) also practice this by leaving the bodies in "towers of silence" for birds of prey to devour them.
    - yakubin 5y ago
      Yes. I think the author of the paragraph wrote about Buddhism in the context of Tibetans. It isn't applicable to Mongols as well.
    - selimthegrim 5y ago
      Mongols and Tibetans probably got it from them given their original location in Bactria/Margiana

RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago

>"The child was buried in a residential site, close to where this community lived, evincing how intimately life and death are related. Only humans treat the dead with the same respect, consideration and even tenderness they treat the living. Even when we die, we continue to be someone for our group," Martinón-Torres added. > "This would likely have been a group act, perhaps by members of the child's family. All of these behaviors are, of course, very similar to those observed in our own species today, so we can relate to this act even though the burial dates to 78,000 years ago," said study co-author Nicole Boivin, an archaeologist and director at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Germany. You have to be careful drawing inferences. Human sacrifice victims were also many times buried with great care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Llullaillaco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Llullaillaco Given the prevalence of childhood mortality in ancient and pre-historic times, an elaborate burial of a child has a pretty good chance of being part of some ritual sacrifice.

stareatgoats 5y ago

Interesting as this is, the article nurtures an old misconception (with roots both in religion and classical philosophy) that there are some traits that distinctly separates humans from other animals, and by extension, finding the time when humans developed that trait is when we became truly humans. In reality the evidence reveals that all such traits, be it burial, toolmaking, artistry, abstract thinking etc, is something we share with other species to varying degrees. To the extent we have any unique such traits currently that radically sets us apart from other species then it has been a long and gradual process over eons. In the case of burials, this old misconception places a ridiculously high bar on proof that other species revere their dead. Case in point being that of Homo Naledi, admittedly a Homo but not a human by a long shot that clearly practiced burials in inaccessible cave structures. [0] [0] https://humangenesis.org/2016/05/18/did-homo-naledi-bury-its-dead/ https://humangenesis.org/2016/05/18/did-homo-naledi-bury-its...

ekianjo 5y ago
> evidence reveals that all such traits, be it burial, toolmaking, artistry, abstract thinking etc, is something we share with other species to varying degrees If actual achievements speak louder than words, then "varying degrees" is a huge gap between human and other species. Yes, we know that numerous animals exhibit intelligence and emotions, but that does not change the fact that humans are very different when it comes to the understanding of time and everything that goes with it. Also, there is no other animal out there who domesticated fire or developed some kind of societal system to expands its own resources beyond what's available in the wild.
- stareatgoats 5y ago
  The argument can be applied to all species - it is engrained in the ongoing diversification process of life itself: all species by definition have traits that set them apart from others, more or less radically. It is mostly a matter of what perspective you want to apply: are the differences the most important, or the similarities. But the main point I was trying to make was really this: > To the extent we have any unique such traits currently that radically sets us apart from other species then it has been a long and gradual process over eons I.e. there is no need to find a specific point where all that makes us human came into place. It all happened gradually, albeit with some leaps and bounds for different traits, at different times for different things, and we carry the legacy of all those millions of years with us, not just the last 200 KY. And we share substantial amounts of traits with other species.

intricatedetail 5y ago

Why people desperately need to set themselves apart from other animals? Seems like the mass killings of Chickens, Cows, Pigs and so on make some uncomfortable.

nnamtr 5y ago

I always wonder when I read articles like this, what people would think if they were told that 78000 summers later many people will be thinking about this specific burial.

f6v 5y ago
They'd ask: "What is 78000?"
- 1123581321 5y ago
  Evidence of humans quantifying is roughly as old as this burial. The communication difficulty here would come from translating 78,000 into their mathematical system.
  - ShamelessC 5y ago
    And yet the punchline is still valid because surely they have no concept of numbers that large without any sort of base system involved.
    - 1123581321 5y ago
      Sure, if requiring a minimum of translation as a premise (i.e. not introducing the concept of orders into the language via explanation.) Though I would be surprised if sexagesimal turns out to always be the oldest system we unearth.

quattrofan 5y ago

Here we go again this nonsense often from anthropology that people use to justify our mistreatment of animals "Only humans treat the dead with the same respect, consideration and even tenderness they treat the living. Even when we die, we continue to be someone for our group". This is simply not true, elephants, whales and others have been seen to do this.

coward76 5y ago

We should stop digging up graves.

alextheparrot 5y ago
It’ll be a few years before we move off petrol.

jb1991 5y ago

>Only humans treat the dead with the same respect, consideration and even tenderness they treat the living. Even when we die, we continue to be someone for our group," Is this true? Elephants walk very far, as a group, to mourn years later the loss of a member from their family, by returning to where it died. Why would we think humans are so special in this regard?

singularity2001 5y ago

Quoth Wiki: Though there is ongoing debate regarding the reliability of the dating method, some scholars believe the earliest human burial dates back 100,000 years. Human skeletal remains stained with red ochre were discovered in the Skhul cave at Qafzeh, Israel. A variety of grave goods were present at the site, including the mandible of a wild boar in the arms of one of the skeletons

AntiImperialist 5y ago

What makes humans humans is ritual burning of the dead, quickly returning all of the body into the elements, while reducing the chances of pathogens spreading. Burial is retarded for many reasons.