20 ms·

WhatsApp will progressively kill features until users accept new privacy policy

424 points by huntermeyer 5y ago

ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago
Switch to telegram en masse.
- JeremyBanks 5y ago
  You misspelled "signal"
  - summm 5y ago
    You misspelled "matrix"
    - devenblake 5y ago
      You misspelled "IRC"
      - xeromal 5y ago
        You misspelled "USPS"
        widea 5y ago
        You mispeled ¨misspelled"
  - insert_coin 5y ago
    honest question: what's with all the signal spam? are you guys getting paid?
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  One of my biggest problems with Telegram is that they demand your phone number before you can use the service. This is a problem with Signal as well. My phone number and my identity is none of their business.
  - greshario 5y ago
    Yeah it's frustrating. WA also requires this, in fairness. It's very annoying though. I want a messenger app that's not owned by Facebook and doesn't require that I'm constantly glued to my phone to use it.
  - theshrike79 5y ago
    At least Telegram doesn't show it to everyone you chat with like Signal does. That's enough for me.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- johnisgood 5y ago
  Do they provide E2EE for desktop by now, or still available only for phone? I would rather stick to Element, Wire, or XMPP (gajim on Linux, Conversations on Android from F-Droid). Briar seems cool, too, but it is not available for desktop.
- vinay427 5y ago
  Telegram still, AFAIK, has no way to backup or transfer E2EE conversations, and no desktop support for them either. Those are non-starters to me. Your encrypted conversations are stuck on the device on which you set them up with no option to change phones, continue a conversation on a desktop, or re-install the app. As a result, most people that communicate with me on Telegram use the standard non-E2EE conversations which makes it about as bad as (if not worse than) WhatsApp, privacy-wise.
- celsoazevedo 5y ago
  While I like Telegram, I'm not sure if moving from an app with end-to-end encryption to one that either doesn't use it by default (for direct messages) or doesn't support it at all (for groups) is a good idea. I get the idea of avoiding Facebook, but Telegram can see your messages in plain text...
bberenberg 5y ago
Can someone who understands GDPR better than me explain how this works in light of the policy that you can't degrade functionality to force tracking consent?
- detaro 5y ago
  maybe: Not apply it to EU users? If I remember right they also adjusted the ToS differently in different parts of the world - presumably they are not going for consent base in EU, so any such argument wouldn't apply anyways. (EDIT: edited for clarity of the argument being made)
- tacker2000 5y ago
  I assume they will not degrade the app in the GDPR countries, since these new policies are not allowed there anyway? But i could be wrong…
  - throwaway492338 5y ago
    It's still nagging to accept new ToS in the UK (but perhaps what it wants consent for is different here than elsewhere) Edit - on my version the wording is "The terms go into effect on May 15, 2021. Please accept these terms to continue using WhatsApp after this date."
    - edoceo 5y ago
      isn't GDPR for EU only?
      - HatchedLake721 5y ago
        GDPR has been copy pasted into UK data protection law
      - tialaramex 5y ago
        The GDPR is (as that R hints) a Regulation, and so yes it directly binds EU member states, however it is the successor to a Directive, which is EU legislation that works by telling member states to all write their own local legislation to achieve some general goal in their own way. The UK transcribed the Regulations into its own law when leaving, because that allows to delay the tedious work of figuring out which rules, if any, should be modified, or eliminated for the UK itself going forward, something that in principle the elected politicians would obviously want a say in but there's always something more important. The UK had anyway had similar rules prior to even the Directive, in the form of the Data Protection Act. More modern rules change some of the details, but the general thrust has been consistent, you should not have data about people that you don't need, and unless you have some compelling reason not to ask (e.g. detectives obviously won't be telling somebody they're collecting evidence that they sell stolen goods) you must ask permission before you store data about people in the first place, and people have a right to ensure your data about them is correct, which necessarily means they have a right to know what that data is. The first Act cares too much about exactly how you store data, so that a filing cabinet full of information about people ends up not captured, while an Excel spreadsheet is. In current legislation (and the GDPR) you can't get away that easily. If you write all those records by hand, then shove the piles of paper unsorted, into an old shoebox and put it in a broom closet, then they're not subject to the rules, but they're also now pretty useless to you. The moment you arrange to make them easily accessible so that your business could benefit from having these records at all, they get captured by the rules.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kjs3 5y ago
Your messaging app wants to screw you over? If only there was an alternative. Or dozens. Seriously, is there something so sticky about WhatsApp (other than being a new vector for Facebook to invade your life) that almost any alternative isn't preferable? We block it outright.
- biggerfisch 5y ago
  The sticky part is the social network effect. Its by FAR the dominant messaging app in much/most of Europe. Some switch to Signal/others has occurred... but if you have _one_ friend who doesn't switch that you want to continue to communicate with... you're stuck too. Not to mention, the alternatives aren't great. I'm sure others will provide a better breakdown, but at a high level: - Signal is the best alternative but missing features like crazy that really do matter to "normal" people (can't change your phone number! Stickers only can be added from the desktop app) - Telegram a) has a poor reputation in my greater social circle b) doesn't actually encrypt by default - Matrix is simply not accessible to anyone who isn't highly computer literate
  - fartcannon 5y ago
    How to use Matrix: 1) Download app 2) Sign in How to use Signal: 1) Download app 2) Sign in
  - kjs3 5y ago
    You are of course completely correct. I downplayed the network effect that drives the ability of these companies to say "screw you peon...accept whatever crap we shovel on you or your grandma's IMs get it".
    - xeromal 5y ago
      And really, the network effect is the only one that really matters.
  - Dah00n 5y ago
    I don't know what everyone use (feel free to provide a source but until then I'll treat it as an anecdote) but I live in Northern Europe (Denmark) and the only person I know that use WhatsApp regularly is my 63 year old British uncle (to keep up with his family in the UK). Everyone else use SMS, old and young (well actually more and more of the younger contacts in my phone doesn't even own a smartphone and refuse to use MMS. Hipsters I say!). I can't see a single thing WhatsApp or Facebook messenger can do for me that signal can't do better because I simply don't need SoMe on my phone. I need encrypted SMS. Anything more than that is worse than what I already got. To paraphrase someone young from my family: "Facebook is for old people". So is WhatsApp and Facebook messenger. But of course it's just an anecdote that covers 100% of the people I happen to know. So from my bubble I don't believe for a second that they have a future. Signal might. As encrypted SMS but not otherwise.
edoceo 5y ago
what's WhatsApp? is this a competitor for Signal? (jk). I've got a few dozen non-US clients, they loved WhatsApp, after our first Zoom meetings they asked a few times for WhatsApp connect. I mentioned privacy and protecting our respective business interests by moving to Signal. they had near zero issues switching and hardly had any questions. as a tech professional, when we make a recommendation to others who trust us, they just follow. don't abuse the power, fight for the user.
- greshario 5y ago
  I didn't have any issues witg Signal until they introduced this crypto BS recently. Now I'm suspicious of them. I don't know if that's unfounded or not, but I don't know much about crypto and I don't have any interest in spending my time researching this to see whether it's a problem for me or not. Maybe I should take the time. But I guarantee I'm not the only person feeling this way, and most people will simply avoid Signal if they're doing suspicious stuff that they don't understand.
  - theshrike79 5y ago
    I just recommend Telegram to people. I do like Signal for all the work they do, but their UX needs some work. Yes, Telegram chats aren't E2E encrypted, but they Just Work. You can have the same chat history on your phone, tablet, laptop and desktop without any issues. With beautiful native clients too. Also the bot feature is killer in my book.
  - throwaway82003 5y ago
    My understanding is that the coin stuff is still in beta and not available in the regular app. Also when it lands on stable, it will be opt-in. So one need to deliberately switch it on to enable their cryptocurrency. Their history tells us they go to great lengths to eliminate metadata. Court requests for signal data only get the account creation time and last access time. Please read about how they implemented their gif functionality in such a way as to preserve privacy. Also read about how they preserve your privacy in group chats. I think they are available in their blog. My understanding is that these things are unique to signal and apps like Element Matrix, WhatsApp, wire, telegram, threema, Conversations XMPP etc don't have it. IMO it's a good idea to read Signal's blog. It can also be subscribed through RSS so you'll get notified about new articles. https://signal.org/blog/rss.xml https://signal.org/blog/rss.xml https://signal.org/bigbrother/ https://signal.org/bigbrother/
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bilal4hmed 5y ago
Signals two day outage with zero explanation killed a lot of their momentum at least with my contacts. Few months later 80% are back on whatsapp. Honestly after what Signal pulled with hiding their server code for a year to implement mobilcoin and still not releasing some parts of their code, Im fine with WhatsApp
- bosswipe 5y ago
  Is WhatsApp's server code available somewhere that I'm not aware of?
  - bilal4hmed 5y ago
    Its at the same location where the rest of Signals enclave code is.
- lolinder 5y ago
  I never understand this reasoning. It's the same kind of thing that people do with Firefox versus Chrome: Mozilla does stupid stuff sometimes, so that makes Chrome okay. Signal does stupid stuff sometimes, so that makes WhatsApp okay. Never mind that Facebook and Google are awful, user-hostile companies and neither Mozilla nor Signal has done anything even close to as bad. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Why does the alternative need to be immaculate in order for you to drop a bad company?
  - danuker 5y ago
    > Why does the alternative need to be immaculate in order for you to drop a bad company? Because of network effects. The status quo have your contacts, so an alternative must be that much better to convince anyone to join.
  - chii 5y ago
    > Signal does stupid stuff sometimes, so that makes WhatsApp okay no, it makes the people who recommends the switch (to their non-tech friends) look bad. The majority of people don't care about these sorts of issues regarding privacy or open-ness. "Normies" care about the usability, reliability and speed. I had convinced a few (non-tech) friends who used to use whatsapp to switch over to Signal. Then signal went down, and they immediately switched back, and that downtime made it look like i made a bad recommendation. Signal also has a bigger spam problems than whatsapp (you get these fake Amazon people trying to spam/phish you on signal, which never happened with whatsapp). I will no longer be trying to get people onto signal, not because i don't like signal (i use it myself with friends that do remain), but alas, whatsapp is still the "main" messaging app. So in all, the dominance of whatsapp is due to their reliability and momentum - no amount of privacy intrusion is going to change that. So signal needs to up their game, but i fear the opportunity has passed already.
grawprog 5y ago
I've been clicking the X everytime i get the popup for a few days now. I haven't really thought much about it or actually read it yet. I honestly fucking hate WhatsApp and wish I could convince the few people i talk to on there to use something else, even SMS. I've tried, yet they always message me through WhatsApp. They're not people i can really ignore either. Anyway, i guess this is mostly a rant. But fuck WhatsApp, they actually manage to somehow be worse than Facebook messenger. At least messenger let's you appear offline.
- 29083011397778 5y ago
  While you're still stuck "using" Whatsapp, I've had great success using the Matrix bridge [0] on the homeserver I run [1]. Your contacts still message you, but you don't have to give Whatsapp your contacts list, other apps installed, or location via ip/wifi network. It won't work for calling (as it's not supported on Whatsapp Web), but images and groups (which I use) both work perfectly. [0] https://matrix.org/bridges/#whatsapp https://matrix.org/bridges/#whatsapp [1] https://matrix.org/faq/#self-hosting https://matrix.org/faq/#self-hosting
  - danmur 5y ago
    I use that too, works really well. Bit fiddly to set up but it's surprisingly resilient, and at least the WhatsApp app is stuck in it's own VM with nothing else on it.
  - est31 5y ago
    Doesn't that use the whatsapp web api? Which requires you to have Whatsapp installed on your phone as it routes all communication to the phone where it is decrypted?
    - philtar 5y ago
      Yes (or an Android VM before anyone tries to get pedantic)
    - 29083011397778 5y ago
newbie578 5y ago
Unpopular opinion, but people don't care, especially non-technical persons. They just want a good UX, nothing more.
- Leherenn 5y ago
  Also, if they use Instagram/Facebook as well, isn't the whole point moot anyway? Do they collect anything more in WhatsApp than they do in their other apps?
  - tgv 5y ago
    It's a different audience, partially age dependent.
- saos 5y ago
  Actually Telegram probably has the best UX out the bunch. I think people just prefer to stick with what works and where the majority of people are.
akkartik 5y ago
Most privacy policies say that continued use constitutes acceptance. Does anybody know why this update requires explicit acceptance? What's in it that's so serious?
- elliekelly 5y ago
  The article paints it as Facebook trying to play nice(r than usual) because of regulators: > The decision not to fully enforce the deadline seems to be in reaction to the stern stance that the Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology (MEITY) in India took against the company. Earlier this year, the ministry filed a counter-affidavit in the high court to prevent WhatsApp from going ahead with the privacy policy update.
- blendergeek 5y ago
  Before being aquired by Facebook, Whatsapp might have had a non-evil ToS that didn't automatically assume acceptance of changes. I really don't know details here.
latenightcoding 5y ago
I wonder if this is why I'm not able to see photos friends send me anymore, I have to ask them to use SMS instead
notRobot 5y ago
It kept showing me the prompt, and must I have dismissed it at least two hundred times over the past few months before last night I clicked "agree" by accident while half-asleep :( And of course, there's no way to go back :(
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  UX team applauding sounds in the background
steve_avery 5y ago
Their tactic of degrading ux when you don't give them permissions has been happening for a long time. Accounts in WhatsApp have a username, but if you don't enable contact permissions on your phone, they will only display the contact phone number in the conversation list view. The username is there if you click into their profile from the chat, but WhatsApp wants to punish me instead.
- Bancakes 5y ago
  Yeah first thing I thought was "Cool, self-DOS."
- TrianguloY 5y ago
  If you talk with a number that is not in your agenda, WhatsApp will display the number. If you talk with a number that is on your agenda, WhatsApp will display the agenda name. WhatsApp never displays the nickname (on the list) no matter if you accept everything or not. They could display the nickname, that could be a nice addition, but anyway removing the contacts permissions is the same as having an empty agenda. WhatsApp isn't degrading or punishing you.
  - clusterfish 5y ago
    So what, who cares how this works technically. They made it work that way, hiding usernames on purpose to push users to give their app contacts permissions that aren't needed to display usernames.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - cdirkx 5y ago
    It does? At least in group chats I have hundreds of people not in my contact list but they display as "0123456789 ~Steven".
    - tsimionescu 5y ago
      Isn't that pulled from the agenda of other people in the group?
jillesvangurp 5y ago
Great, I will eventually uninstall it when they make me. I only keep it around to deal with people that haven't switched to Signal or Telegram yet. I have all three on my phone. Whatsapp usage has dropped a lot lately in my circle of friends. I removed Facebook Messenger ages ago (nobody I know uses that anymore). Just like the Facebook app and instagram. Whatsapp is the last bit of Facebook software on my phone. I've been watching this corporate stupidity train wreck play out over the last few months. Every time I open whatsapp I get an obnoxious dialog urging me to pretty please accept their T&Cs. I click it away because I can. The fact that I can amuses me because it signals a certain amount of despair by Facebook. It's not normal for an app to be usable without accepting the terms and conditions. The dilemma Facebook has is the very real problem that people are opting to uninstall rather than accept. Their users are angry and disgruntled. Which is why they are allowing people to use the app without accepting the terms and conditions. Which is of course highly unusual. From a legal point of view, until I agree, the old T&Cs apply. Basically they are saying those were actually fine and nothing really changed and it's all cosmetics but bla bla bla could you please accept the new ones anyway. It's a very weird position to take legally. Either the old T&Cs were fine and there never was a reason to change them or the new ones materially change the old T&Cs and they should just state in plain language why and how. Instead we get this months long weaseling that is no doubt partially inspired by the fact that they are under a lot of scrutiny by authorities in the EU and US for privacy violations, monopolistic tendencies, data leaks, etc. The real issue is that the new T&Cs are of course designed to carve out some legal wiggle room there for Facebook to do user hostile things like ads and tracking. So they are in fact a change and they need users to swallow that.
- beermonster 5y ago
  I keep WhatsApp around to reply to people that try to get hold of me there telling them that they can find me on Signal. I've made a few converts this way.
  - italicbold 5y ago
    If you install whatsapp business you can setup an auto response to messages telling people you no longer use whatsapp and to switch to Signal.
annadane 5y ago
Brian Acton and Jan Koum seem to actually be ethical - and then Zuck ruins it all by being the sociopath that he is
graderjs 5y ago
We've normalized coercion as part of user engagement and retention....sigh...
KingOfCoders 5y ago
I only use WhatsApp to talk to my mom.
- frouge 5y ago
  Make her switch, please!
  - KingOfCoders 5y ago
    No chance all grand children use whatsapp.
- saos 5y ago
  Oh you can easily delete WhatsApp then. Can just SMS or Facetime her.
  - KingOfCoders 5y ago
    My mom isn't rich so hasn't got an apple device. Neither have I, after 15y of OSX I didn't make the jump to the luxury brand. I have an SMS limit, because after paying 20k of carrier fees over the years I now have the cheapest prepaid setup that is possible.
setr 5y ago
The beatings shall continue until advertising revenue improves
Cloudef 5y ago
The time family was making me to install this malware, it decided to go and delete _all_ my contacts in the phone. Thats when i immediately uninstalled the application and spend some time restoring all the contacts it deleted. Needless to say i told family, i wont use whatsapp, contact me by other means.
mrwww 5y ago
apple just need to make imessage available for everyone to complete the facebook murder, which would be great for humanity. So please.
- dannyw 5y ago
  iMessage is a status signal. It's why it's the only single app on iOS that can send special vibration buzz patterns when you get a message.
  - beagle3 5y ago
    That's true, but if the Apple/Facebook war escalates, it's a price Apple will be willing to pay iff they find a way to do it in a way that hurts Facebook. It is a status signal, but no one buys an iPhone just for iMessage.
teekert 5y ago
Haha every day I hit that cross I feel like a small win. Yeah I’ll cave at some point but not without a battle!
powerapple 5y ago
I say bring it on. Slowly people will be annoyed and switch to other platform, I will have no reason to use it by then. It is very sad that Apple is not providing Messenger to Android, it can definitely eat Facebook's lunch. I think Facebook has a better bargaining chip with Instagram, it has been their front tier force competing with others.
phil3k 5y ago
Users will progressively move to alternatives as WhatsApp forces them to accept the new privacy policy.
manigandham 5y ago
I'm still surprised it was acquired for $19 billion.
beyondcompute 5y ago
Why wouldn’t people just switch to something else?
- beagle3 5y ago
  network effect. WhatsApp is not useful because it's a good app (even though it is a good messaging app). It's useful because everyone else has it installed.
bambax 5y ago
> WhatsApp will then switch off all incoming notifications and calls for your account I have disabled notifications on all apps on my phone (except the phone app), so I think I can live with this for some time.
tqkxzugoaupvwqr 5y ago
I only see Signal and Telegram mentioned in this thread. What about Threema? Is it any good? https://threema.ch/en https://threema.ch/en
- benhurmarcel 5y ago
  It's good but even less known, and paid, so there's no chance of a massive adoption.
failwhaleshark 5y ago
This is partially why I refused to use WA.
Havoc 5y ago
FB is really overplaying its hand lately. All the cool people have left...and thus the network effects are gone. I open FB & whatsapp maybe like once a month
saos 5y ago
Had more and more friends move to Telegram lately and actually everyone is noticing how much better it is. I will still stick to that May 15 deadline and delete the app!
- YeBanKo 5y ago
  Telegram is not ideal for peivacy.
agumonkey 5y ago
It's almost funny how blackmail-ish this sort of apps become.
nix23 5y ago
Hey Facebook, please threaten peoples that if they don't accept the new policy they have to pay for whats-app.
HumblyTossed 5y ago
So glad the people I know on WhatsApp have started migrating to telegram and signal. Facebook can just go away.
stevespang 5y ago
Hah. gmail already doing this to me, be I see it as a golden opportunity to harvest only the relevant email addresses from my gmail, then dump gmail for proton mail. Start over with a clean slate, my gmail is trashed with spam and promotion crap.
milin 5y ago
People still use whatsapp?
- beagle3 5y ago
  I was able to not use WhatsApp until my kids started school; And after a year of realizing, often 2-3 weeks after the fact, that I was unaware of something important that happened, I gave up, and bought a whatsapp burner phone for kid school use. Don't need it for myself, but that's where the villains often get you - by putting the pressure on people you care for.
adg001 5y ago
WhatsApp will not degrade my ux, because I ditched it a long time ago – And never looked back.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
I hope this ends up with them offering a paid version for people that don’t want advertisements. These companies should be forced to at least have that as an option, it is frustrating to see when my children are playing these games with tons of ads and there’s no way to pay to have them removed.
PicassoCTs 5y ago
Threema and Signal marketing must have a field day. All they have to do is book some popups and add a "choose another messenger instead".. third button..
corova_32 5y ago
Install Telegram: https://o0d.short.gy/how-to-install-telegram https://o0d.short.gy/how-to-install-telegram
corova_32 5y ago
Install telegram: https://o0d.short.gy/how-to-install-telegram https://o0d.short.gy/how-to-install-telegram
calltrak 5y ago
Ask yourself this. Who really owns Whatsapp. I mean who really owns the owner of whatsapp. What do they gain? This app is Free, it has no ads whatsoever, it produces no INCOME per se. and it was bought for 10's of billions of dollars, and costs 10's of millions each year to keep running. When the product is free like that. You are the product. Big Tech is owned by big brother government.
nrvn 5y ago
I see people in the comments discussing applications for instant messaging. What is worth talking about is protocols. Once upon a time there were IRC and XMPP. But for whatever reason people stick to silly corporate funded gimmicks. Support open protocols. I am really happy that for email we still have SMTP and IMAP. And if my current email provider decides to screw me up I will just jump over to another one in a matter of hours. There is no added value in signal, imessage, whatsapp, threema, icq, viber, telegram, slack. All these “apps” want to substitute open protocols the same way google and facebook try to replace world wide web. If we talk about Signal. I am still not convinced. Yes, they are a 501c3 nonprofit. But what they lack is transparency of decision making process. And their governance model is not clear. In other words there is no guarantee that they won’t irreversibly switch from good to evil. Now, on protocols. Imagine signal was a protocol similar to smtp or xmpp in the sense that you would not be tied to a specific app or server or company or people. Matrix looks promising in this regard but unfortunately matrix is too complicated and at this level its adoption rate will be even lower than signal’s So why don’t we put some love into creating a protocol for a secure e2e instant messaging and video conferencing that we would stick to for the next 30-40 years? That would be a real innovation and value for everyone excluding corps and rotten political regimes.
- networkimprov 5y ago
  I know of two: DIME - Dark Internet Mail Environment mnm - mnm is not mail (my work)
- pnt12 5y ago
  >for whatever reason The vast majority of the population does not know what a communication protocol is. They know whatsapp is a messaging app, their friends are on it, and they can use it to reach them. If you speak in a language they understand, such as "there are approaches that enable different apps to talk to each other, so you only need 1 instead of a handful", they might get interested. Another protocol will not help if you don't have an app and a network of users that can compete with whatsapp. As far as I know, whatsapp implements just that for IMs exactly (whisper protocol made by signal) and its still a walled garden.
danielovichdk 5y ago
It still baffles me that we don't have a Web app for messaging without all the fuzz of being part of a major network or corporation. We could even make a Peer-to-Peer based thing
kuon 5y ago
I took the harsh route. I sent an email to all my contacts saying that I was on matrix and/or email and would not be on whatsapp anymore. It's a bit sudden and most of my contact will never message me again, but I'm fine with that.
YeBanKo 5y ago
Stupid question: is there a way to check if i accepted the news terms or not?
DrSiemer 5y ago
The Google Maps app did (does?) something like this. If you wanted to set your "Home" and "Work" shortcuts you had to enable history first.
- mleonhard 5y ago
  That's a big reason why I use Apple Maps.
jessi_lia 5y ago
Nearly all the major Internet services in China have been doing this for years, like Taobao (Alibaba's eBay), Weibo (Twitter equivalence). Some even ask you to login by using mobile app to scan QR code, so that you must install a mobile app.

424 points by huntermeyer 5y ago

ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago

Switch to telegram en masse.

JeremyBanks 5y ago
You misspelled "signal"
- summm 5y ago
  You misspelled "matrix"
  - devenblake 5y ago
    You misspelled "IRC"
    - xeromal 5y ago
      You misspelled "USPS"
      - widea 5y ago
        You mispeled ¨misspelled"
- insert_coin 5y ago
  honest question: what's with all the signal spam? are you guys getting paid?
pmoriarty 5y ago
One of my biggest problems with Telegram is that they demand your phone number before you can use the service. This is a problem with Signal as well. My phone number and my identity is none of their business.
- greshario 5y ago
  Yeah it's frustrating. WA also requires this, in fairness. It's very annoying though. I want a messenger app that's not owned by Facebook and doesn't require that I'm constantly glued to my phone to use it.
- theshrike79 5y ago
  At least Telegram doesn't show it to everyone you chat with like Signal does. That's enough for me.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
johnisgood 5y ago
Do they provide E2EE for desktop by now, or still available only for phone? I would rather stick to Element, Wire, or XMPP (gajim on Linux, Conversations on Android from F-Droid). Briar seems cool, too, but it is not available for desktop.
vinay427 5y ago
Telegram still, AFAIK, has no way to backup or transfer E2EE conversations, and no desktop support for them either. Those are non-starters to me. Your encrypted conversations are stuck on the device on which you set them up with no option to change phones, continue a conversation on a desktop, or re-install the app. As a result, most people that communicate with me on Telegram use the standard non-E2EE conversations which makes it about as bad as (if not worse than) WhatsApp, privacy-wise.
celsoazevedo 5y ago
While I like Telegram, I'm not sure if moving from an app with end-to-end encryption to one that either doesn't use it by default (for direct messages) or doesn't support it at all (for groups) is a good idea. I get the idea of avoiding Facebook, but Telegram can see your messages in plain text...

bberenberg 5y ago

Can someone who understands GDPR better than me explain how this works in light of the policy that you can't degrade functionality to force tracking consent?

detaro 5y ago
maybe: Not apply it to EU users? If I remember right they also adjusted the ToS differently in different parts of the world - presumably they are not going for consent base in EU, so any such argument wouldn't apply anyways. (EDIT: edited for clarity of the argument being made)
tacker2000 5y ago
I assume they will not degrade the app in the GDPR countries, since these new policies are not allowed there anyway? But i could be wrong…
- throwaway492338 5y ago
  It's still nagging to accept new ToS in the UK (but perhaps what it wants consent for is different here than elsewhere) Edit - on my version the wording is "The terms go into effect on May 15, 2021. Please accept these terms to continue using WhatsApp after this date."
  - edoceo 5y ago
    isn't GDPR for EU only?
    - HatchedLake721 5y ago
      GDPR has been copy pasted into UK data protection law
    - tialaramex 5y ago
      The GDPR is (as that R hints) a Regulation, and so yes it directly binds EU member states, however it is the successor to a Directive, which is EU legislation that works by telling member states to all write their own local legislation to achieve some general goal in their own way. The UK transcribed the Regulations into its own law when leaving, because that allows to delay the tedious work of figuring out which rules, if any, should be modified, or eliminated for the UK itself going forward, something that in principle the elected politicians would obviously want a say in but there's always something more important. The UK had anyway had similar rules prior to even the Directive, in the form of the Data Protection Act. More modern rules change some of the details, but the general thrust has been consistent, you should not have data about people that you don't need, and unless you have some compelling reason not to ask (e.g. detectives obviously won't be telling somebody they're collecting evidence that they sell stolen goods) you must ask permission before you store data about people in the first place, and people have a right to ensure your data about them is correct, which necessarily means they have a right to know what that data is. The first Act cares too much about exactly how you store data, so that a filing cabinet full of information about people ends up not captured, while an Excel spreadsheet is. In current legislation (and the GDPR) you can't get away that easily. If you write all those records by hand, then shove the piles of paper unsorted, into an old shoebox and put it in a broom closet, then they're not subject to the rules, but they're also now pretty useless to you. The moment you arrange to make them easily accessible so that your business could benefit from having these records at all, they get captured by the rules.

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[deleted]

kjs3 5y ago

Your messaging app wants to screw you over? If only there was an alternative. Or dozens. Seriously, is there something so sticky about WhatsApp (other than being a new vector for Facebook to invade your life) that almost any alternative isn't preferable? We block it outright.

biggerfisch 5y ago
The sticky part is the social network effect. Its by FAR the dominant messaging app in much/most of Europe. Some switch to Signal/others has occurred... but if you have _one_ friend who doesn't switch that you want to continue to communicate with... you're stuck too. Not to mention, the alternatives aren't great. I'm sure others will provide a better breakdown, but at a high level: - Signal is the best alternative but missing features like crazy that really do matter to "normal" people (can't change your phone number! Stickers only can be added from the desktop app) - Telegram a) has a poor reputation in my greater social circle b) doesn't actually encrypt by default - Matrix is simply not accessible to anyone who isn't highly computer literate
- fartcannon 5y ago
  How to use Matrix: 1) Download app 2) Sign in How to use Signal: 1) Download app 2) Sign in
- kjs3 5y ago
  You are of course completely correct. I downplayed the network effect that drives the ability of these companies to say "screw you peon...accept whatever crap we shovel on you or your grandma's IMs get it".
  - xeromal 5y ago
    And really, the network effect is the only one that really matters.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  I don't know what everyone use (feel free to provide a source but until then I'll treat it as an anecdote) but I live in Northern Europe (Denmark) and the only person I know that use WhatsApp regularly is my 63 year old British uncle (to keep up with his family in the UK). Everyone else use SMS, old and young (well actually more and more of the younger contacts in my phone doesn't even own a smartphone and refuse to use MMS. Hipsters I say!). I can't see a single thing WhatsApp or Facebook messenger can do for me that signal can't do better because I simply don't need SoMe on my phone. I need encrypted SMS. Anything more than that is worse than what I already got. To paraphrase someone young from my family: "Facebook is for old people". So is WhatsApp and Facebook messenger. But of course it's just an anecdote that covers 100% of the people I happen to know. So from my bubble I don't believe for a second that they have a future. Signal might. As encrypted SMS but not otherwise.

edoceo 5y ago

what's WhatsApp? is this a competitor for Signal? (jk). I've got a few dozen non-US clients, they loved WhatsApp, after our first Zoom meetings they asked a few times for WhatsApp connect. I mentioned privacy and protecting our respective business interests by moving to Signal. they had near zero issues switching and hardly had any questions. as a tech professional, when we make a recommendation to others who trust us, they just follow. don't abuse the power, fight for the user.

greshario 5y ago
I didn't have any issues witg Signal until they introduced this crypto BS recently. Now I'm suspicious of them. I don't know if that's unfounded or not, but I don't know much about crypto and I don't have any interest in spending my time researching this to see whether it's a problem for me or not. Maybe I should take the time. But I guarantee I'm not the only person feeling this way, and most people will simply avoid Signal if they're doing suspicious stuff that they don't understand.
- theshrike79 5y ago
  I just recommend Telegram to people. I do like Signal for all the work they do, but their UX needs some work. Yes, Telegram chats aren't E2E encrypted, but they Just Work. You can have the same chat history on your phone, tablet, laptop and desktop without any issues. With beautiful native clients too. Also the bot feature is killer in my book.
- throwaway82003 5y ago
  My understanding is that the coin stuff is still in beta and not available in the regular app. Also when it lands on stable, it will be opt-in. So one need to deliberately switch it on to enable their cryptocurrency. Their history tells us they go to great lengths to eliminate metadata. Court requests for signal data only get the account creation time and last access time. Please read about how they implemented their gif functionality in such a way as to preserve privacy. Also read about how they preserve your privacy in group chats. I think they are available in their blog. My understanding is that these things are unique to signal and apps like Element Matrix, WhatsApp, wire, telegram, threema, Conversations XMPP etc don't have it. IMO it's a good idea to read Signal's blog. It can also be subscribed through RSS so you'll get notified about new articles. https://signal.org/blog/rss.xml https://signal.org/blog/rss.xml https://signal.org/bigbrother/ https://signal.org/bigbrother/

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bilal4hmed 5y ago

Signals two day outage with zero explanation killed a lot of their momentum at least with my contacts. Few months later 80% are back on whatsapp. Honestly after what Signal pulled with hiding their server code for a year to implement mobilcoin and still not releasing some parts of their code, Im fine with WhatsApp

bosswipe 5y ago
Is WhatsApp's server code available somewhere that I'm not aware of?
- bilal4hmed 5y ago
  Its at the same location where the rest of Signals enclave code is.
lolinder 5y ago
I never understand this reasoning. It's the same kind of thing that people do with Firefox versus Chrome: Mozilla does stupid stuff sometimes, so that makes Chrome okay. Signal does stupid stuff sometimes, so that makes WhatsApp okay. Never mind that Facebook and Google are awful, user-hostile companies and neither Mozilla nor Signal has done anything even close to as bad. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Why does the alternative need to be immaculate in order for you to drop a bad company?
- danuker 5y ago
  > Why does the alternative need to be immaculate in order for you to drop a bad company? Because of network effects. The status quo have your contacts, so an alternative must be that much better to convince anyone to join.
- chii 5y ago
  > Signal does stupid stuff sometimes, so that makes WhatsApp okay no, it makes the people who recommends the switch (to their non-tech friends) look bad. The majority of people don't care about these sorts of issues regarding privacy or open-ness. "Normies" care about the usability, reliability and speed. I had convinced a few (non-tech) friends who used to use whatsapp to switch over to Signal. Then signal went down, and they immediately switched back, and that downtime made it look like i made a bad recommendation. Signal also has a bigger spam problems than whatsapp (you get these fake Amazon people trying to spam/phish you on signal, which never happened with whatsapp). I will no longer be trying to get people onto signal, not because i don't like signal (i use it myself with friends that do remain), but alas, whatsapp is still the "main" messaging app. So in all, the dominance of whatsapp is due to their reliability and momentum - no amount of privacy intrusion is going to change that. So signal needs to up their game, but i fear the opportunity has passed already.

grawprog 5y ago

I've been clicking the X everytime i get the popup for a few days now. I haven't really thought much about it or actually read it yet. I honestly fucking hate WhatsApp and wish I could convince the few people i talk to on there to use something else, even SMS. I've tried, yet they always message me through WhatsApp. They're not people i can really ignore either. Anyway, i guess this is mostly a rant. But fuck WhatsApp, they actually manage to somehow be worse than Facebook messenger. At least messenger let's you appear offline.

29083011397778 5y ago
While you're still stuck "using" Whatsapp, I've had great success using the Matrix bridge [0] on the homeserver I run [1]. Your contacts still message you, but you don't have to give Whatsapp your contacts list, other apps installed, or location via ip/wifi network. It won't work for calling (as it's not supported on Whatsapp Web), but images and groups (which I use) both work perfectly. [0] https://matrix.org/bridges/#whatsapp https://matrix.org/bridges/#whatsapp [1] https://matrix.org/faq/#self-hosting https://matrix.org/faq/#self-hosting
- danmur 5y ago
  I use that too, works really well. Bit fiddly to set up but it's surprisingly resilient, and at least the WhatsApp app is stuck in it's own VM with nothing else on it.
- est31 5y ago
  Doesn't that use the whatsapp web api? Which requires you to have Whatsapp installed on your phone as it routes all communication to the phone where it is decrypted?
  - philtar 5y ago
    Yes (or an Android VM before anyone tries to get pedantic)
  - 29083011397778 5y ago

newbie578 5y ago

Unpopular opinion, but people don't care, especially non-technical persons. They just want a good UX, nothing more.

Leherenn 5y ago
Also, if they use Instagram/Facebook as well, isn't the whole point moot anyway? Do they collect anything more in WhatsApp than they do in their other apps?
- tgv 5y ago
  It's a different audience, partially age dependent.
saos 5y ago
Actually Telegram probably has the best UX out the bunch. I think people just prefer to stick with what works and where the majority of people are.

akkartik 5y ago

Most privacy policies say that continued use constitutes acceptance. Does anybody know why this update requires explicit acceptance? What's in it that's so serious?

elliekelly 5y ago
The article paints it as Facebook trying to play nice(r than usual) because of regulators: > The decision not to fully enforce the deadline seems to be in reaction to the stern stance that the Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology (MEITY) in India took against the company. Earlier this year, the ministry filed a counter-affidavit in the high court to prevent WhatsApp from going ahead with the privacy policy update.
blendergeek 5y ago
Before being aquired by Facebook, Whatsapp might have had a non-evil ToS that didn't automatically assume acceptance of changes. I really don't know details here.

latenightcoding 5y ago

I wonder if this is why I'm not able to see photos friends send me anymore, I have to ask them to use SMS instead

notRobot 5y ago

It kept showing me the prompt, and must I have dismissed it at least two hundred times over the past few months before last night I clicked "agree" by accident while half-asleep :( And of course, there's no way to go back :(

DoingIsLearning 5y ago
UX team applauding sounds in the background

steve_avery 5y ago

Their tactic of degrading ux when you don't give them permissions has been happening for a long time. Accounts in WhatsApp have a username, but if you don't enable contact permissions on your phone, they will only display the contact phone number in the conversation list view. The username is there if you click into their profile from the chat, but WhatsApp wants to punish me instead.

Bancakes 5y ago
Yeah first thing I thought was "Cool, self-DOS."
TrianguloY 5y ago
If you talk with a number that is not in your agenda, WhatsApp will display the number. If you talk with a number that is on your agenda, WhatsApp will display the agenda name. WhatsApp never displays the nickname (on the list) no matter if you accept everything or not. They could display the nickname, that could be a nice addition, but anyway removing the contacts permissions is the same as having an empty agenda. WhatsApp isn't degrading or punishing you.
- clusterfish 5y ago
  So what, who cares how this works technically. They made it work that way, hiding usernames on purpose to push users to give their app contacts permissions that aren't needed to display usernames.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- cdirkx 5y ago
  It does? At least in group chats I have hundreds of people not in my contact list but they display as "0123456789 ~Steven".
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    Isn't that pulled from the agenda of other people in the group?

jillesvangurp 5y ago

Great, I will eventually uninstall it when they make me. I only keep it around to deal with people that haven't switched to Signal or Telegram yet. I have all three on my phone. Whatsapp usage has dropped a lot lately in my circle of friends. I removed Facebook Messenger ages ago (nobody I know uses that anymore). Just like the Facebook app and instagram. Whatsapp is the last bit of Facebook software on my phone. I've been watching this corporate stupidity train wreck play out over the last few months. Every time I open whatsapp I get an obnoxious dialog urging me to pretty please accept their T&Cs. I click it away because I can. The fact that I can amuses me because it signals a certain amount of despair by Facebook. It's not normal for an app to be usable without accepting the terms and conditions. The dilemma Facebook has is the very real problem that people are opting to uninstall rather than accept. Their users are angry and disgruntled. Which is why they are allowing people to use the app without accepting the terms and conditions. Which is of course highly unusual. From a legal point of view, until I agree, the old T&Cs apply. Basically they are saying those were actually fine and nothing really changed and it's all cosmetics but bla bla bla could you please accept the new ones anyway. It's a very weird position to take legally. Either the old T&Cs were fine and there never was a reason to change them or the new ones materially change the old T&Cs and they should just state in plain language why and how. Instead we get this months long weaseling that is no doubt partially inspired by the fact that they are under a lot of scrutiny by authorities in the EU and US for privacy violations, monopolistic tendencies, data leaks, etc. The real issue is that the new T&Cs are of course designed to carve out some legal wiggle room there for Facebook to do user hostile things like ads and tracking. So they are in fact a change and they need users to swallow that.

beermonster 5y ago
I keep WhatsApp around to reply to people that try to get hold of me there telling them that they can find me on Signal. I've made a few converts this way.
- italicbold 5y ago
  If you install whatsapp business you can setup an auto response to messages telling people you no longer use whatsapp and to switch to Signal.

annadane 5y ago

Brian Acton and Jan Koum seem to actually be ethical - and then Zuck ruins it all by being the sociopath that he is

graderjs 5y ago

We've normalized coercion as part of user engagement and retention....sigh...

KingOfCoders 5y ago

I only use WhatsApp to talk to my mom.

frouge 5y ago
Make her switch, please!
- KingOfCoders 5y ago
  No chance all grand children use whatsapp.
saos 5y ago
Oh you can easily delete WhatsApp then. Can just SMS or Facetime her.
- KingOfCoders 5y ago
  My mom isn't rich so hasn't got an apple device. Neither have I, after 15y of OSX I didn't make the jump to the luxury brand. I have an SMS limit, because after paying 20k of carrier fees over the years I now have the cheapest prepaid setup that is possible.

setr 5y ago

The beatings shall continue until advertising revenue improves

Cloudef 5y ago

The time family was making me to install this malware, it decided to go and delete _all_ my contacts in the phone. Thats when i immediately uninstalled the application and spend some time restoring all the contacts it deleted. Needless to say i told family, i wont use whatsapp, contact me by other means.

mrwww 5y ago

apple just need to make imessage available for everyone to complete the facebook murder, which would be great for humanity. So please.

dannyw 5y ago
iMessage is a status signal. It's why it's the only single app on iOS that can send special vibration buzz patterns when you get a message.
- beagle3 5y ago
  That's true, but if the Apple/Facebook war escalates, it's a price Apple will be willing to pay iff they find a way to do it in a way that hurts Facebook. It is a status signal, but no one buys an iPhone just for iMessage.

teekert 5y ago

Haha every day I hit that cross I feel like a small win. Yeah I’ll cave at some point but not without a battle!

powerapple 5y ago

I say bring it on. Slowly people will be annoyed and switch to other platform, I will have no reason to use it by then. It is very sad that Apple is not providing Messenger to Android, it can definitely eat Facebook's lunch. I think Facebook has a better bargaining chip with Instagram, it has been their front tier force competing with others.

phil3k 5y ago

Users will progressively move to alternatives as WhatsApp forces them to accept the new privacy policy.

manigandham 5y ago

I'm still surprised it was acquired for $19 billion.

beyondcompute 5y ago

Why wouldn’t people just switch to something else?

beagle3 5y ago
network effect. WhatsApp is not useful because it's a good app (even though it is a good messaging app). It's useful because everyone else has it installed.

bambax 5y ago

> WhatsApp will then switch off all incoming notifications and calls for your account I have disabled notifications on all apps on my phone (except the phone app), so I think I can live with this for some time.

tqkxzugoaupvwqr 5y ago

I only see Signal and Telegram mentioned in this thread. What about Threema? Is it any good? https://threema.ch/en https://threema.ch/en

benhurmarcel 5y ago
It's good but even less known, and paid, so there's no chance of a massive adoption.

failwhaleshark 5y ago

This is partially why I refused to use WA.

Havoc 5y ago

FB is really overplaying its hand lately. All the cool people have left...and thus the network effects are gone. I open FB & whatsapp maybe like once a month

saos 5y ago

Had more and more friends move to Telegram lately and actually everyone is noticing how much better it is. I will still stick to that May 15 deadline and delete the app!

YeBanKo 5y ago
Telegram is not ideal for peivacy.

agumonkey 5y ago

It's almost funny how blackmail-ish this sort of apps become.

nix23 5y ago

Hey Facebook, please threaten peoples that if they don't accept the new policy they have to pay for whats-app.

HumblyTossed 5y ago

So glad the people I know on WhatsApp have started migrating to telegram and signal. Facebook can just go away.

stevespang 5y ago

Hah. gmail already doing this to me, be I see it as a golden opportunity to harvest only the relevant email addresses from my gmail, then dump gmail for proton mail. Start over with a clean slate, my gmail is trashed with spam and promotion crap.

milin 5y ago

People still use whatsapp?

beagle3 5y ago
I was able to not use WhatsApp until my kids started school; And after a year of realizing, often 2-3 weeks after the fact, that I was unaware of something important that happened, I gave up, and bought a whatsapp burner phone for kid school use. Don't need it for myself, but that's where the villains often get you - by putting the pressure on people you care for.

adg001 5y ago

WhatsApp will not degrade my ux, because I ditched it a long time ago – And never looked back.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

I hope this ends up with them offering a paid version for people that don’t want advertisements. These companies should be forced to at least have that as an option, it is frustrating to see when my children are playing these games with tons of ads and there’s no way to pay to have them removed.

PicassoCTs 5y ago

Threema and Signal marketing must have a field day. All they have to do is book some popups and add a "choose another messenger instead".. third button..

corova_32 5y ago

Install Telegram: https://o0d.short.gy/how-to-install-telegram https://o0d.short.gy/how-to-install-telegram

corova_32 5y ago

Install telegram: https://o0d.short.gy/how-to-install-telegram https://o0d.short.gy/how-to-install-telegram

calltrak 5y ago

Ask yourself this. Who really owns Whatsapp. I mean who really owns the owner of whatsapp. What do they gain? This app is Free, it has no ads whatsoever, it produces no INCOME per se. and it was bought for 10's of billions of dollars, and costs 10's of millions each year to keep running. When the product is free like that. You are the product. Big Tech is owned by big brother government.

nrvn 5y ago

I see people in the comments discussing applications for instant messaging. What is worth talking about is protocols. Once upon a time there were IRC and XMPP. But for whatever reason people stick to silly corporate funded gimmicks. Support open protocols. I am really happy that for email we still have SMTP and IMAP. And if my current email provider decides to screw me up I will just jump over to another one in a matter of hours. There is no added value in signal, imessage, whatsapp, threema, icq, viber, telegram, slack. All these “apps” want to substitute open protocols the same way google and facebook try to replace world wide web. If we talk about Signal. I am still not convinced. Yes, they are a 501c3 nonprofit. But what they lack is transparency of decision making process. And their governance model is not clear. In other words there is no guarantee that they won’t irreversibly switch from good to evil. Now, on protocols. Imagine signal was a protocol similar to smtp or xmpp in the sense that you would not be tied to a specific app or server or company or people. Matrix looks promising in this regard but unfortunately matrix is too complicated and at this level its adoption rate will be even lower than signal’s So why don’t we put some love into creating a protocol for a secure e2e instant messaging and video conferencing that we would stick to for the next 30-40 years? That would be a real innovation and value for everyone excluding corps and rotten political regimes.

networkimprov 5y ago
I know of two: DIME - Dark Internet Mail Environment mnm - mnm is not mail (my work)
pnt12 5y ago
>for whatever reason The vast majority of the population does not know what a communication protocol is. They know whatsapp is a messaging app, their friends are on it, and they can use it to reach them. If you speak in a language they understand, such as "there are approaches that enable different apps to talk to each other, so you only need 1 instead of a handful", they might get interested. Another protocol will not help if you don't have an app and a network of users that can compete with whatsapp. As far as I know, whatsapp implements just that for IMs exactly (whisper protocol made by signal) and its still a walled garden.

danielovichdk 5y ago

It still baffles me that we don't have a Web app for messaging without all the fuzz of being part of a major network or corporation. We could even make a Peer-to-Peer based thing

kuon 5y ago

I took the harsh route. I sent an email to all my contacts saying that I was on matrix and/or email and would not be on whatsapp anymore. It's a bit sudden and most of my contact will never message me again, but I'm fine with that.

YeBanKo 5y ago

Stupid question: is there a way to check if i accepted the news terms or not?

DrSiemer 5y ago

The Google Maps app did (does?) something like this. If you wanted to set your "Home" and "Work" shortcuts you had to enable history first.

mleonhard 5y ago
That's a big reason why I use Apple Maps.

jessi_lia 5y ago

Nearly all the major Internet services in China have been doing this for years, like Taobao (Alibaba's eBay), Weibo (Twitter equivalence). Some even ask you to login by using mobile app to scan QR code, so that you must install a mobile app.