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The Grim Secret of Nordic Happiness
- tw04 6y agoI find it interesting the article didn't seem to bother looking at income inequality. It seems without fail the countries that rank happiest have the lowest income disparity. In general, that seems to be because they have strong social safety nets, which means even the "worst off" can still lead a comfortable life which should mean: less crime, less social unrest, and more social cohesion.
- bitshiftfaced 6y agoThat's not necessarily true, since one country can have higher income disparity and have it to where their "worst off" are living a better life (in terms of living standard / consumption).
- tw04 6y agoI'm not aware of a single country with higher income disparity than Finland whose "worst off" are living a better life. Can you cite some examples?
- bitshiftfaced 6y agoYou're asking me to cite examples for a claim that I never made. It should be obvious that the claim I actually made is true as long as you understand the difference between income and consumption (spending) and how the GINI coefficient works. That said, it appears that the bottom 20% of the USA live at a similar standard of living of the average household in Finland: https://www.justfacts.com/news_poorest_americans_richer_than_europe https://www.justfacts.com/news_poorest_americans_richer_than...
- teddyh 6y ago> It’s reasonable expectations. Yes, isn’t this what stoics have been saying all along?
- catillac 6y agoNo, stoicism is more about determinism of outcomes and being free from emotions like anger and jealousy. If you kinda mangle that a bit, I can see how it might sound like reasonable expectations but it’s really not the same thing. Besides, the Stoics are one group with one philosophy, the chances of them being the “correct” one (if there is such a thing) are nearly nil. So to point at stoics matter of factly in this way doesn’t advance the point, even if the stoics espoused what you’re claiming they espouse.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- teddyh 6y ago> No, stoicism is more about determinism of outcomes and being free from emotions like anger and jealousy. I disagree. > the Stoics are one group with one philosophy, the chances of them being the “correct” one (if there is such a thing) are nearly nil. Since this argument can be made equally against any viewpoint and philosophy, it is clearly irrelevant.
- mbrodersen 6y agoNope. Stoicism is about focusing 100% on what you can do and not on what you can’t. Worrying about things you can’t control is a waste of time.
- jolux 6y agoI’ve been getting into stoicism lately and finding it enormously therapeutic. I don’t even know if it’s the philosophy itself as much as it is knowing that other human beings have been struggling with the same questions I have for thousands of years. If it were a modern pop psychology self-help book I might actually hate it. But stoic writing hits me on that level.
- gerikson 6y agoInstead of Happiness Index it should be Satisfied Index.
- mseepgood 6y agoHumility Index
- zibzab 6y agoI personally think it involves a lot the nordic mentality of thinking carefully before acting, which in the long run leads to a society with much fewer problems. See for example the prison system: do want people to suffer or do we want them to return as reasonably normal members of the society? Also, let me add that I find the article slightly offensive.
- ochrist 6y agoI am honestly curious. What in the article do you find offensive?
- zibzab 6y agoThe stereotypes all over the article
- TulliusCicero 6y agoIf you're comparing countries in this way, generalizations are basically mandatory. That said, nothing in there felt particularly mean to me.
- yunohn 6y ago> nordic mentality of thinking carefully before acting To me, your comment also sounds like a stereotype.
- happytoexplain 6y agoAgreed, but note however that, for many people, no amount of careful thinking will bring them to the latter decision in your example. They want the imprisoned to suffer - to them, that's the whole point ("deterrent", they'll say).
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Knufferlbert 6y ago
- ObserverNeutral 6y agoThis matches my experience. If I were to use a word to define the nordic countries I'd use : Flatline An other which comes to mind is : Stasis Those places are depressing, people don't have the hatred and the competitive killer instinct which can be seen in big US metropolis and London
- jfk13 6y agoSo hatred and killer instincts are the characteristics that appeal to you? Chacun à son goût, as they say...
- fogihujy 6y agoYeah, it's not a bug but a feature.
- ObserverNeutral 6y agoIf you stop competing then all you are left with is contemplating your own insignificance and death. Competition keeps us busy, if we are busy competing , then we can't think. The moment society collectively stops to think and do introspection, it would be the end of the human race, we'd all fall in a deep depression and off ourselves.
- AlexandrB 6y ago> If you stop competing then all you are left with is contemplating your own insignificance and death. I think this is more revealing of your own thinking than that of society at large. Plenty of people derive meaning from family, craft, nature, etc. and don't need competition to distract them from thinking too much. I'd instead argue that if the premise - competition keeps you from thinking too deeply - is true, competition is probably the most destructive force in society because it prevents one from properly prioritizing one's life based one's own sense of what's meaningful.
- ObserverNeutral 6y ago
- nevinera 6y agoSounds like they're just using the wrong word for what they're measuring. Perhaps we should be talking about "contentment" instead of "happiness" here? The word 'happy' has an unusually large load of nuance to it, as well, not the sort of thing I would want to try to nail down for scientific study.
- dhimes 6y agoIt bothers me that the re-purposing of words is getting so pervasive. It's good that people like you spot it and call it out.
- woleium 6y agoWhy? Languages are constantly evolving, and always have been. Chaucer (middle English) is so far from modern English that it may as well be a completely different language, and yet it's what was spoken in England at the time (ad1400). Here is an example (with modern English translation): https://chaucer.fas.harvard.edu/pages/millers-prologue-and-tale https://chaucer.fas.harvard.edu/pages/millers-prologue-and-t...
- dhimes 6y agoThat's a slow change. That's not so bad. What's happening today seems to be deliberate change to recast ideas (and people) in a particular light for the purposes of persuasion or even deceit.
- woleium 6y agoWe must learn the newspeak, or its to room 101 with us all! /s (it's an Orwell reference)
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- noir_lord 6y agoThat's neat. If I try and read it silently it's much harder than just reading it, then it sounds like my grandfather who had a really strong Yorkshire accent.
- mbg721 6y agoWell, sure, it's an average; it shouldn't be surprising that the "happiest" places are the ones that best manage to reduce catastrophic unhappiness on the low end; that's where the biggest marginal improvement happens.
- cmrdporcupine 6y agoI like that they chose the word "Grim"; in addition to meaning "dreary, gloomy" it's also one of the many names of Odin/Woden (Grimnir / Grimr in Nordic, often Grim in old Anglo-Saxon names)
- guerrilla 6y agoMaybe that was intended, but Finnish isn't a language derived from Old Norse let alone an Indo-European language. Estonian, Sami and Hungarian form their own group separate from Indo-European [1]. Along with that, most of Finland has their own mythology [2]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_mythology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_mythology
- cmrdporcupine 6y agoI am quite aware of that. The article was supposed to be about Scandinavia as a whole, though it did spend its latter half mostly talking about Finland.
- admissionsguy 6y agoAs an expat living in Sweden, this sounds spot on. You can easily live very comfortably in here, and it's very seducing. Not the best place if you hold any ambitions of world domination though, which is why I'm moving to the US as soon as possible. I wouldn't agree with the author's sentiment: "The reason why I decided to stay here in the United States, despite a couple of efforts to return to Finland, is because I like it when people smile, laugh, and, yes, even talk to their neighbors." My Swedish neighbours and Swedes in general have been delightful, though I know things may be different in Finland. I think it's great that places like Sweden exist, and might suit most people, but those who wish to lead lives of high variance with high highs at the cost of potentially ruinous lows should be able to do so as well.
- eCa 6y ago> Not the best place if you hold any ambitions of world domination though Does seem to have worked fairly well for Ikea, Spotify and some others though.
- blululu 6y agoFor what it’s worth, Sweden has more billionaires per capita than the US (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_billionaires#Forbes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_...). It’s just harder to spot because there’s less contrast.
- ObserverNeutral 6y ago
- blululu 6y agoThis article is charmingly Finnish - blunt and to the point. Only a Finn would call bullshit on a study praising their nation while also proudly praising the very high quality of life and social cohesion that people enjoy in Finland. It is telling that the critique here does not offer an alternative approach. Nobody smiles in Finland? Who cares, you can fake/force a smile and some culture do force them. The happiness index here is really measuring contentment, though this is a necessary condition for happiness. In general happiness research is fraught with the classic pitfall of all psychology research: culture. What makes people happy is acceptance and respect from their fellow humans and this varies by culture. Sometimes this means money, sometimes this means performance. Generally this means living your life in the way that your compatriots respect. In that context it doesn't seem especially surprising that egalitarian and well educated Finland would top the list for happiness, though it would be hard to measure and compare such qualities.
- soco 6y agoThe author seems to live in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Maybe they moved there exactly because they didn't approve "reasonable expectations" thus called them "grim" and wrote an article about it? Because the article doesn't seem to criticize the status, but the expectations themselves, as in "you should have huge expectations in order to be happy". And this is maybe the entire difference we see also in other comments here: the nordic way of being content with less, or the american way of everything is possible. Thing is, we don't live in the world of hopes, so when you look around and see that actually not everything is possible, of course your happiness index takes a hit. While if you look around and see that you can have everything you put on your reasonable list, hey, you can take a break from whatever you're doing and just enjoy it.
- guerrilla 6y agoWhile I do agree this idea of happiest people is empirically nonsense, I'm not sure I understand this bit about expectations but I think I may disagree. I can't speak for Finland, but Swedes have very high expectations. Having lived in other places and coming here, I tend to see them as exceptionally spoiled. They'll complain about potholes out on on the forest roads nobody drives, be aghast at slight political scandals or outraged that high school teacher said something a bit weird. I think that the more people get, the more their standards are raised (As a side note that's kind of a prediction of Buddhist thinking.) Also I don't get how Jantelagen is supposed to be an explanation for anything... people are still demanding a lot regardless of that. Also a ton of people don't take it seriously or outright hate it, so... more research needed I'd say. There is definitely a strong emphasis on fairness but that seems like an entirely different subject.
- wanderingstan 6y agoThe article refers more to “big” expectations around one’s station in life or fame. Americans are brought up to think “you could be the next President” or “you could be a star”, and then when they turn out to have a regular life then feel disappointed.
- toomanybeersies 6y agoI think that Hollywood has warped our perception of what happy is supposed to be.
- ahartmetz 6y agoI find it excusable for Hollywood. Contentment doesn't look like much on a screen. Real life isn't dramatic enough to be interesting to others for most people most of the time. But (looking from Germany) the American obsession with smiling while a large fraction of the population is on antidepressants, anti-anxiety medication and so on does seem a little insane. Happiness as a performance parameter, if you're not happy you fail.
- CountDrewku 6y agoAmerica has an obsession with happiness and when you're not happy you're immediately told something is wrong with you. You should be happy all the time! Feeling bad is wrong! I feel like Europeans don't have this automatic thought process where they expect things should be perfect and they ought to feel happy.
- mbrodersen 6y agoYep you are right. Being from Europe, I can’t stand the false happiness projected by some people.
- domatic1 6y agoI live in Finland, the only problems here are basically loneliness and depression. It's hard to make friends, and not only for foreigners but even Finns have a hard time making friends. Everything else works, November and December are the worst months, due to darkness and cold. But in sprint / summer you can feel the happiness flowing on the streets.
- Mediterraneo10 6y agoI can think of some other problems with Finland from my years of experience with the country. One is nepotism: Finland has a reputation as a low-corruption country, but that is simply because it is swept under the rug that often jobs and state funding go to the people with the right connections. Another downside is a society that is rather hostile to those who want to work only seasonally. In Eastern Europe populations are comparatively poorer, but it isn’t at all unusual for a young person to work his/her ass off for a while, then backpack the world or live off savings. In Finland, I found this challenging because rental contracts on flats are very long as a rule, and because the high cost of living makes it difficult to live off savings.
- circlefavshape 6y agoIn my limited knowledge of psychology it's widely accepted there are 2 kinds of subjective well-being AKA "happiness". One is in-the-moment emotional happiness - joy, laughter, fun, that kind of thing. The other is "life satisfaction" which is what is discussed here.
- ccsnags 6y agoIf this is widely accepted, would it just be better to describe the exact form of subjective well-being that is studied rather than relying on vague descriptors? One of my biggest issues with the science community is their lack of discipline when choosing language to describe what they are doing. Exact language is good practice and can eliminate a lot of bias and superstition that is prevalent in the way reality is described.
- legulere 6y agoJante lagen only applies to the individual. I don’t know about Finland, but at least in Sweden the opposite is true about society: they genuinely believe they are better than anyone else.
- sjs7007 6y agoDespite US being the butt of jokes on the internet, as someone who moved here from India at 21, ~6 years ago, I feel like my experience has been mostly pleasant. People are so much more friendly here in US than back home. And yes, some of it maybe superficial but I do feel in general it's easier for me to trust a random friendly face in America than someone back home. Life is in general just easier here.
- traveler01 6y agoRead it a bit and couldn't finish it on how bullshit it is. It basically says they're great country, basic metrics that make people's lives better are great and then he disagrees with the studies because they don't go around in Finland counting smiles. Happiness is about accomplishments, you set your life to work for something, greater or worse you'll get there in countries like Finland. That do make people happy and if you're "sad" with that, that's just a first world problem. Come to Portugal where half of your wage gets stolen by direct and indirect taxes, making you study and work only to survive and you'll see what "happiness" is.
- G0ther 6y agoI don't even know what will make him happy but he seems socially deprived and kind of trying to fulfill that by shifting the definition of happiness into being a fucking clown. having all that and being "sad". I don't even know if antidepressants will work on him for god sake. most people are dying in the rat race. some are being mentally destroyed and crushed into just getting up the ladder a fucking little bit, others are just suiciding to let go of the pain and suffering. and they usually still laugh and try to be happy unless ofc they die, if having all these things isn't enough for him to be goddamn happy I don't know what will.
- mbrodersen 6y agoNope. Happiness is when your expectations matching your results. There are seriously stressed and depressed millionaires out there. And seriously happy non-millionaires. I know because I have met both.
- traveler01 6y agoI think they're way better than people fighting to survive even though they work their ass off everyday...
- G0ther 6y agowhere is the button "report this for being so stupid"? he mentions basically having a world class educational system, lowest corruption level and having the most stable economy in a (meh) accent. Okay, wanna strive and work for your dreams? feel the sweat of fighting and the pride of winning, the US is just also too good for that, move to a 3rd world country champ so you can have a social life. tfw the dude has the shit everyone wishes for be he's like, nah I am not happy with it. okay, then go 3rd world and live there. enjoy the classical oldschool social life and be "happy". but please don't BS stupid things here because I did regret every second I spent reading this. If I had a static IP on my home router I would've begged you to ip-ban me so I won't come across such posts anymore. they don't smile, as if the people in the fucking world are laughing day and night ffs. even when they do. you can see the damn depression, poverty, and the last drops of hope on their faces. you can see the ignorance, the feelings of being unsafe in your home country, the feeling of unjust, tribalism, dictatorships, resources being stolen, and fucking lots more. then comes a random Finnish dude unhappy with all they have. what is supposed to make you happy? a fucking joke teller? a clown? a what? if having the most stable economy and free access to world class education and lowest level if corruption in the world isn't making you happy I am sure you'd need a therapist.
- Viker 6y agoIt is ironic isn't it. Having everything society has to offer actually makes you dull and miserable, and depressed. I can fully understand your sentiment too. I not have always lived in Scandinavia. But sadly now I can fully relate to the author too.
- G0ther 6y agoIt is, and unreasonable too. I don't think having the life essentials and a good healthy life is dull or depressive unless you have been abused or something. but generally speaking no it's not bad. the all introverts depressive society, well, not everyone is happy around a lot of people. some are, some are not. I think people loosing the meaning of their lives is their responsibility at the end of the day if they haven't been abused or just feeling dull, I have my purpose and I am striving to get to it with the depression left from unreasonable stuff that happened to me out of my own will. I understand people need social connections, have them, make them, be the energetic relentless joyfull dude whom every girl would fall in love with, and every guy can rely on, just go out and meet people like you and make social connections. make communities yourself for god sake. if you have the essentials and you can't go homeless or so low, you have literally nothing to fear. just do something about it.
- sergefaguet 6y agoThere’s something quite un-human about this idea of just being content and accepting and not standing out. Yes this is what a lot of meditators aim for and it likely means less emotional variability in life. But it is not peaceful contentment that lifted us from the caves and will lift us to the stars. It is passion. Love. Hatred. Desire. Dreams. Despair. Individualism. That is a large part of what it means to be human. Not the whole thing to be sure - the sense of unity with all that I get from DMT or similar things is sublime. But a large part of life is about intense striving for the dreams I have. As a self that is separate from the world. Being happy through absolute contentment with one’s lot in society sounds like what being one of the social insects feels like.
- klyrs 6y ago> There’s something quite un-human about this idea of just being content and accepting and not standing out Un-human, or un-American? This mindset is not unique to Finland, or even Nordic peoples.
- euroderf 6y agoThe article ends on a sour-ish note, that Finland lost its lustre for him because "I like it when people smile, laugh, and, yes, even talk to their neighbors. It makes me happy." Well, these things happen in Finland too, and increasingly so as the 20th century recedes into the distance. But the extroverted cheerfulness is not forced. Maybe the author had been Americanized into trying too hard ? Granted, out-and-out enthusiasm is an odd thing in Finland; the folk wisdom seems to be that "If you're enthusiastic, you obviously haven't thought it through." Which makes sense in its own way.
- Mediterraneo10 6y agoPeople do not typically talk to their neighbors in Finland in blocks and I have not seen any major change in this regard in the last couple of decades. Indeed, in Helsinki it is becoming a common behavior, before opening the door and leaving, to first look out the peephole to make sure that there isn’t anyone in the corridor – not running into one’s neighbors at all is seen as a common courtesy. Obviously people living out in Junttila might talk to their neighbors, but these are comparatively so few people that they aren’t representative of the country.
- dumb_troll 6y agopeople don't talk to their neighbors in the States either.
- thatwasunusual 6y agoI'm a Norwegian, and this is weird article. Let's be clear that the article is written by a Finnish author, and finnish people are so different from Norwegians and Danish people; Swedes and Finnish are more "related." Bringing in Lutheran heritage is just bullshit; Norwegians haven't cared a lot about our "Christian" heritage for decades.