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Any company running out of mainland USA is going to have serious privacy problems due to USA influence and their need to comply with both local laws and the gov

Any company running out of mainland USA is going to have serious privacy problems due to USA influence and their need to comply with both local laws and the government’s interest in influencing public sentiment.

fossuser 6y ago
Whataboutism style arguments (which are always the knee-jerk reactions that show up) are wrong. I wrote about this at length here: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html and won’t rehash it again in the comments.
- imiric 6y ago
  It's really frustrating how often whataboutism is used whenever China is criticized, particularly towards the US. Yes, we know other countries have similar issues, but we can't excuse the blatant wrongdoings of the CCP by pointing the finger elsewhere. It often feels like the work of bots or government shills anytime it happens, but good luck getting to the bottom of that.
  - brabel 6y ago
    Why is it frustrating when others point out that the most popular services, which are usually from the USA, also have the same kind of problem of being under the influence of the respective government, but nobody seems to be as worried about it? The criticism almost always comes up whenever a service provided by a Chinese company is mentioned in any context. China has shown no interest that I know of in spying on non-Chinese citizens, so I feel like it's probably less problematic to use a chinese service than an American one if your only worry is that someone is spying on you, specially considering how there's plenty of evidence of the USA spying on the whole bloody planet, including heads of state of allied countries, for f'sake... >It often feels like the work of bots or government shills Do you think I'm a bot because I disagree with you? Maybe you are the bot... how can we verify you're not? :D good luck getting to the bottom of that.
    - shard 6y ago
      > China has shown no interest that I know of in spying on non-Chinese citizens I believe China has kept tabs on 2 groups of non-Chinese citizens: 1. foreign nationals within China borders, and 2. foreign nationals who are ethnically Chinese.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - imiric 6y ago
      It's frustrating because it's not the topic of conversation, and it only serves to derail it as we're doing now. If we're discussing the high cost of apples and someone brings up oranges, it doesn't change the fact that apples are expensive. > Do you think I'm a bot because I disagree with you? No, but a lazy comment doing s/China/USA/ certainly reads like it. And if you've seen some of the threads on Reddit or Twitter it becomes pretty clear some accounts search for any negative discussion about China and interject with whataboutism, which would be pretty easy to automate.
      - krageon 6y ago
        > it's not the topic of conversation Yes it is, because the topic invariably includes "alternatives" or things that are "better". Those things are nearly always things the US has made. They are not better. Yes, it's bad. Everyone knows this. Adding value to that conversation is giving alternatives or offering some new insight into the nature of badness and how it's different flavours should be looked upon.
        imiric 6y ago
        Introducing ideas associated to the topic that expand it and offer new perspectives is of course welcomed. The issue with the China apologist comments is that their intent is to damage control by attacking the negative sentiments that would make the country look bad and steering the conversation towards the evils of other countries, i.e. whataboutism. This behavior is so prevalent online that you'd be hard pressed to find any discussion that criticizes China without it. I'd also find it frustrating if in any thread that criticizes the US there would be comments about how China is worse. That might be the case, but it doesn't minimize US' problems and only distracts from discussing them. Yet such comments are much less frequent--I'm not sure if I've ever seen one.
ebruchez 6y ago
If you think the two are actually comparable in degree, you are seriously misled.
wongarsu 6y ago
Yes, if you care about privacy both the large Chinese services and the large American services are bad. If you use Facebook or Instagram assume that the NSA has all your data, and that someone might try to manipulate you. If you use TikTok assume that China has all your data, and someone might try to manipulate you. You either choose your poison, or you stay on services that aren't in the limelight
- lurkerasdfh8 6y ago
  Not sure why you think those are exclusive. All companies mentioned have offices and comply with law on both regions.
- fossuser 6y ago
  One big difference is in the US the companies are not required to manipulate content to serve USG interests. TikTok may downrank or censor HongKong videos because the government forces them to - the same does not happen at American companies. I think the 'assume they have all of your data' is paranoid (particularly for encrypted stuff like whatsapp), but people should probably more careful about this kind of thing than they are anyway. The US has laws and rules around access, you may not agree with them - but they are far and away better than the CCP's approach. The CCP is running concentration camps for a minority population of their own citizens, invading and taking over neighboring countries (HK with an eye towards Taiwan), and censoring pooh bear from the internet because of a light hearted comparison to Xi. The police call foreign students in the US to threaten them over their internet activity: https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-video-calling-citizens-abroad-with-threats-not-to-criticize-beijing https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-vi... The comparisons are not valid.
  - leephillips 6y ago
    You're right about Chinese government behavior. But “the same does not happen at American companies.” --- no, but they censor the internet in obedience to Pakistani demands.
    - 6y ago

fossuser 6y ago

Whataboutism style arguments (which are always the knee-jerk reactions that show up) are wrong. I wrote about this at length here: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html and won’t rehash it again in the comments.

imiric 6y ago
It's really frustrating how often whataboutism is used whenever China is criticized, particularly towards the US. Yes, we know other countries have similar issues, but we can't excuse the blatant wrongdoings of the CCP by pointing the finger elsewhere. It often feels like the work of bots or government shills anytime it happens, but good luck getting to the bottom of that.
- brabel 6y ago
  Why is it frustrating when others point out that the most popular services, which are usually from the USA, also have the same kind of problem of being under the influence of the respective government, but nobody seems to be as worried about it? The criticism almost always comes up whenever a service provided by a Chinese company is mentioned in any context. China has shown no interest that I know of in spying on non-Chinese citizens, so I feel like it's probably less problematic to use a chinese service than an American one if your only worry is that someone is spying on you, specially considering how there's plenty of evidence of the USA spying on the whole bloody planet, including heads of state of allied countries, for f'sake... >It often feels like the work of bots or government shills Do you think I'm a bot because I disagree with you? Maybe you are the bot... how can we verify you're not? :D good luck getting to the bottom of that.
  - shard 6y ago
    > China has shown no interest that I know of in spying on non-Chinese citizens I believe China has kept tabs on 2 groups of non-Chinese citizens: 1. foreign nationals within China borders, and 2. foreign nationals who are ethnically Chinese.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - imiric 6y ago
    It's frustrating because it's not the topic of conversation, and it only serves to derail it as we're doing now. If we're discussing the high cost of apples and someone brings up oranges, it doesn't change the fact that apples are expensive. > Do you think I'm a bot because I disagree with you? No, but a lazy comment doing s/China/USA/ certainly reads like it. And if you've seen some of the threads on Reddit or Twitter it becomes pretty clear some accounts search for any negative discussion about China and interject with whataboutism, which would be pretty easy to automate.
    - krageon 6y ago
      > it's not the topic of conversation Yes it is, because the topic invariably includes "alternatives" or things that are "better". Those things are nearly always things the US has made. They are not better. Yes, it's bad. Everyone knows this. Adding value to that conversation is giving alternatives or offering some new insight into the nature of badness and how it's different flavours should be looked upon.
      - imiric 6y ago
        Introducing ideas associated to the topic that expand it and offer new perspectives is of course welcomed. The issue with the China apologist comments is that their intent is to damage control by attacking the negative sentiments that would make the country look bad and steering the conversation towards the evils of other countries, i.e. whataboutism. This behavior is so prevalent online that you'd be hard pressed to find any discussion that criticizes China without it. I'd also find it frustrating if in any thread that criticizes the US there would be comments about how China is worse. That might be the case, but it doesn't minimize US' problems and only distracts from discussing them. Yet such comments are much less frequent--I'm not sure if I've ever seen one.

ebruchez 6y ago

If you think the two are actually comparable in degree, you are seriously misled.

wongarsu 6y ago

Yes, if you care about privacy both the large Chinese services and the large American services are bad. If you use Facebook or Instagram assume that the NSA has all your data, and that someone might try to manipulate you. If you use TikTok assume that China has all your data, and someone might try to manipulate you. You either choose your poison, or you stay on services that aren't in the limelight

lurkerasdfh8 6y ago
Not sure why you think those are exclusive. All companies mentioned have offices and comply with law on both regions.
fossuser 6y ago
One big difference is in the US the companies are not required to manipulate content to serve USG interests. TikTok may downrank or censor HongKong videos because the government forces them to - the same does not happen at American companies. I think the 'assume they have all of your data' is paranoid (particularly for encrypted stuff like whatsapp), but people should probably more careful about this kind of thing than they are anyway. The US has laws and rules around access, you may not agree with them - but they are far and away better than the CCP's approach. The CCP is running concentration camps for a minority population of their own citizens, invading and taking over neighboring countries (HK with an eye towards Taiwan), and censoring pooh bear from the internet because of a light hearted comparison to Xi. The police call foreign students in the US to threaten them over their internet activity: https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-video-calling-citizens-abroad-with-threats-not-to-criticize-beijing https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgxdv7/chinese-police-are-vi... The comparisons are not valid.
- leephillips 6y ago
  You're right about Chinese government behavior. But “the same does not happen at American companies.” --- no, but they censor the internet in obedience to Pakistani demands.
  - 6y ago