9 ms·

I had a great-grandfather who was in the SS, in one of the divisions that wasn't really known for their good deeds to say the least. There is a journal which he

I had a great-grandfather who was in the SS, in one of the divisions that wasn't really known for their good deeds to say the least. There is a journal which he wrote, I have yet to gather the courage to read it. All I know is some vague stories that go around in the family but from what I gather it isn't probably too pretty what he did. It's typical that most people will tell you their grandpa was in the resistance, rarely they will tell you that they collaborated.

scanny 5y ago
It would be worth scanning its pages (even without reading) to make sure whatever history is in there is saved for posterity.
whachawatch 5y ago
When you say "It's typical that most people will tell you their grandpa was in the resistance, rarely they will tell you that they collaborated." - do you mean that people lie about being in the resistance or do you mean that they only talk about the war if they were part of the resistance?
- watwut 5y ago
  Not op, but both happen. People do lie about their own past when it is politically or otherwise inconvenient. Including to their own family. People also lie about their relatives past, if it is convenient. And people are more likely to talk about their family past if it sounds cool and good. They are less likely to talk about ugly parts of it. Regardless of whether ugly is personal, business related or political.
- FriedrichN 5y ago
  Many people don't know because of the shame, their parents never told them they or their parents were collaborators. After the war many destroyed as much evidence of their crimes and kept everything to themselves. In the Netherlands the death penalty was brought back for just for these crimes after not having been carried out since 1850 (officially abolished in 1870). There was a strong desire for revenge in the first years after the war. That meant anyone who did anything 'wrong' was not going to talk about it.
- jhbadger 5y ago
  Of course it might not really be lying but just being selective about what to say. Many people were collaborators early in the war when it looked like Germany was winning, but gradually shifted over to the resistance when it began to look like they would eventually lose.
BurningFrog 5y ago
Maybe let someone else read it? You could then ask them about it in non detailed ways.
setgree 5y ago
I know what you mean, OP. On the other hand, your great-grandfather was just a man, and he lived under very difficult circumstances. I'd like to think that I would have risked my life and resisted in his shoes; but I have no idea. Best case scenario is that his diary humanizes him to you and to others. (Speaking as a Jewish American with no SSS relatives but many who perished in the Holocaust, FWIW)
- meowface 5y ago
  >Best case scenario is that his diary humanizes him to you and to others. And the worst case scenario is that his diary demonizes him. Given the stories they mention and the potential SS division they hint at (perhaps one of the mobile death squad or extermination camp divisions), it seems quite possible. But, especially so long after he's died, it might be better to know who he really was, whichever way it turns out. If I had a relative who potentially did and expressed terrible things, even though it'd hurt, I think I'd want to know the truth. Or, as another commenter said, they could ask someone else to read it and give a vague but honest summary. If the contents are bad, they can learn that fact without the additional serious emotional impact of reading the lurid details.
cableshaft 5y ago
There could be some serious historical value or insights in that journal, even if there are terrible deeds listed within. If you can't bring yourself to read it, perhaps consider sharing it with a WWII museum or historian. They might be willing to leave your great-grandfather's name out of it, if that's a concern for you.
- FriedrichN 5y ago
  I will definitely have to do something with it, at the very least photocopy it as another user suggested. It has luckily survived a fire, but I don't know if it'll be around forever.
  - amelius 5y ago
    Consider sending the journal (or a copy) to NIOD: https://www.niod.nl/en https://www.niod.nl/en https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIOD_Institute_for_War,_Holocaust_and_Genocide_Studies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIOD_Institute_for_War,_Holoca...
    - amelius 5y ago
      To add, from their website: > Even today, interesting things from the Second World War resurface. When people move house, when a house is demolished or when an attic is cleared. These finds can range from a pile of letters, to photos, films, diaries, documents or objects. Don’t throw these documents away. NIOD welcomes donations of new material.
soperj 5y ago
Lots of people did shitty things in that war (and all wars), and honestly if Germany had won the war it likely would have been all condoned, like the US dropping two atomic bombs on Japan is. The Japanese committed vast atrocities in China, but they were never made to sit in a war crimes communal because the US thought the chemical warfare research was worthwhile knowing. Either way, what you grandfather did or didn't do doesn't make you a bad person, and reading it might give you reflection to make better choices in your life?
- burkaman 5y ago
  Don't know much about the history of this, but it seems like there were substantial war crimes tribunals in Japan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#War_crime_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#War_crime_.... Almost a thousand executed, and thousands more given some prison time, including some very high ranking generals and politicians.
  - soperj 5y ago
    Interesting! Thanks! I knew specifically about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 not getting tried by the Americans, didn't know the rest.
    - burkaman 5y ago
      I see, yeah it's not surprising there were exceptions. Obviously agree with your larger point that winners tend not to subject themselves to tribunals.
- meowface 5y ago
  >honestly if Germany had won the war it likely would have been all condoned Oh, yeah, undoubtedly. "History is written by the victors" is one of the truest cliches. But whether crimes or atrocities are acknowledged or punished tells you nothing about the impact or severity of the actions. So, while one could certainly recite a laundry list of atrocities committed by the Allies which a victorious Nazi Germany would have prosecuted, and many by Imperial Japan that went unpunished (though you're wrong that none of them were charged with war crimes - many were, even if many others like Unit 731 escaped prosecution due to the US wanting their research [edit: I see someone else responded with this before I finished my reply]), WWII is difficult to write off as "everyone and everything was awful" like a lot of wars. Every side was indeed awful, but Nazi Germany's and Imperial Japan's actions in particular were so unprecedentedly awful that far-future generations in those countries probably would've eventually had a reckoning and realized they were the worst actors in the war, like what eventually happened in the US when it comes to treatment of Native Americans, propping up brutal dictatorships in Latin America and elsewhere, and other things. All this to say - if the parent poster's great-grandfather was a member of a Waffen-SS division that tracked down and executed civilians en masse due to their ethnicity, for example, it can't and shouldn't be dismissed as "well, that's war, everyone is culpable, and you can't know what it was like to be in their shoes, and either side would be considered as evil if the other side won". (I know you didn't quite say that, but there is a certain false semi-equivalence here, I think.) It's not exactly wrong, but it misses a lot of the bigger picture.
stronkLikeBear 5y ago
The Monuments Men Foundation[0] is a non-profit that, while they typically deal with artistic works, can absolutely assist with getting this to the right people to preserve it for historical value. Very happy to make an introduction if needed [0] https://www.monumentsmenfoundation.org/ https://www.monumentsmenfoundation.org/
antattack 5y ago
This brings up a question: should children be responsible for 'sins' of their fathers (parents)? In my opinion, no. However, it gets complicated when one's status is derived from misdeeds of the predecessors.
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  No, one hundred times no. Just ask yourself the opposite: should a child be honored for the goodness of his parents, if he is a vicious criminal? It's obvious that he shouldn't. By what principle could we say that, but still hold children responsible for their parents' wrongdoing?
webreac 5y ago
There was a lot of mental manipulation to scapegoat the Jews for everything, to make them be seen as animals and not humans. I think reading this paper can help to better identify how the media tries to manipulate us.

scanny 5y ago

It would be worth scanning its pages (even without reading) to make sure whatever history is in there is saved for posterity.

whachawatch 5y ago

When you say "It's typical that most people will tell you their grandpa was in the resistance, rarely they will tell you that they collaborated." - do you mean that people lie about being in the resistance or do you mean that they only talk about the war if they were part of the resistance?

watwut 5y ago
Not op, but both happen. People do lie about their own past when it is politically or otherwise inconvenient. Including to their own family. People also lie about their relatives past, if it is convenient. And people are more likely to talk about their family past if it sounds cool and good. They are less likely to talk about ugly parts of it. Regardless of whether ugly is personal, business related or political.
FriedrichN 5y ago
Many people don't know because of the shame, their parents never told them they or their parents were collaborators. After the war many destroyed as much evidence of their crimes and kept everything to themselves. In the Netherlands the death penalty was brought back for just for these crimes after not having been carried out since 1850 (officially abolished in 1870). There was a strong desire for revenge in the first years after the war. That meant anyone who did anything 'wrong' was not going to talk about it.
jhbadger 5y ago
Of course it might not really be lying but just being selective about what to say. Many people were collaborators early in the war when it looked like Germany was winning, but gradually shifted over to the resistance when it began to look like they would eventually lose.

BurningFrog 5y ago

Maybe let someone else read it? You could then ask them about it in non detailed ways.

setgree 5y ago

I know what you mean, OP. On the other hand, your great-grandfather was just a man, and he lived under very difficult circumstances. I'd like to think that I would have risked my life and resisted in his shoes; but I have no idea. Best case scenario is that his diary humanizes him to you and to others. (Speaking as a Jewish American with no SSS relatives but many who perished in the Holocaust, FWIW)

meowface 5y ago
>Best case scenario is that his diary humanizes him to you and to others. And the worst case scenario is that his diary demonizes him. Given the stories they mention and the potential SS division they hint at (perhaps one of the mobile death squad or extermination camp divisions), it seems quite possible. But, especially so long after he's died, it might be better to know who he really was, whichever way it turns out. If I had a relative who potentially did and expressed terrible things, even though it'd hurt, I think I'd want to know the truth. Or, as another commenter said, they could ask someone else to read it and give a vague but honest summary. If the contents are bad, they can learn that fact without the additional serious emotional impact of reading the lurid details.

cableshaft 5y ago

There could be some serious historical value or insights in that journal, even if there are terrible deeds listed within. If you can't bring yourself to read it, perhaps consider sharing it with a WWII museum or historian. They might be willing to leave your great-grandfather's name out of it, if that's a concern for you.

FriedrichN 5y ago
I will definitely have to do something with it, at the very least photocopy it as another user suggested. It has luckily survived a fire, but I don't know if it'll be around forever.
- amelius 5y ago
  Consider sending the journal (or a copy) to NIOD: https://www.niod.nl/en https://www.niod.nl/en https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIOD_Institute_for_War,_Holocaust_and_Genocide_Studies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIOD_Institute_for_War,_Holoca...
  - amelius 5y ago
    To add, from their website: > Even today, interesting things from the Second World War resurface. When people move house, when a house is demolished or when an attic is cleared. These finds can range from a pile of letters, to photos, films, diaries, documents or objects. Don’t throw these documents away. NIOD welcomes donations of new material.

soperj 5y ago

Lots of people did shitty things in that war (and all wars), and honestly if Germany had won the war it likely would have been all condoned, like the US dropping two atomic bombs on Japan is. The Japanese committed vast atrocities in China, but they were never made to sit in a war crimes communal because the US thought the chemical warfare research was worthwhile knowing. Either way, what you grandfather did or didn't do doesn't make you a bad person, and reading it might give you reflection to make better choices in your life?

burkaman 5y ago
Don't know much about the history of this, but it seems like there were substantial war crimes tribunals in Japan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#War_crime_trials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#War_crime_.... Almost a thousand executed, and thousands more given some prison time, including some very high ranking generals and politicians.
- soperj 5y ago
  Interesting! Thanks! I knew specifically about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 not getting tried by the Americans, didn't know the rest.
  - burkaman 5y ago
    I see, yeah it's not surprising there were exceptions. Obviously agree with your larger point that winners tend not to subject themselves to tribunals.
meowface 5y ago
>honestly if Germany had won the war it likely would have been all condoned Oh, yeah, undoubtedly. "History is written by the victors" is one of the truest cliches. But whether crimes or atrocities are acknowledged or punished tells you nothing about the impact or severity of the actions. So, while one could certainly recite a laundry list of atrocities committed by the Allies which a victorious Nazi Germany would have prosecuted, and many by Imperial Japan that went unpunished (though you're wrong that none of them were charged with war crimes - many were, even if many others like Unit 731 escaped prosecution due to the US wanting their research [edit: I see someone else responded with this before I finished my reply]), WWII is difficult to write off as "everyone and everything was awful" like a lot of wars. Every side was indeed awful, but Nazi Germany's and Imperial Japan's actions in particular were so unprecedentedly awful that far-future generations in those countries probably would've eventually had a reckoning and realized they were the worst actors in the war, like what eventually happened in the US when it comes to treatment of Native Americans, propping up brutal dictatorships in Latin America and elsewhere, and other things. All this to say - if the parent poster's great-grandfather was a member of a Waffen-SS division that tracked down and executed civilians en masse due to their ethnicity, for example, it can't and shouldn't be dismissed as "well, that's war, everyone is culpable, and you can't know what it was like to be in their shoes, and either side would be considered as evil if the other side won". (I know you didn't quite say that, but there is a certain false semi-equivalence here, I think.) It's not exactly wrong, but it misses a lot of the bigger picture.

stronkLikeBear 5y ago

The Monuments Men Foundation[0] is a non-profit that, while they typically deal with artistic works, can absolutely assist with getting this to the right people to preserve it for historical value. Very happy to make an introduction if needed [0] https://www.monumentsmenfoundation.org/ https://www.monumentsmenfoundation.org/

antattack 5y ago

This brings up a question: should children be responsible for 'sins' of their fathers (parents)? In my opinion, no. However, it gets complicated when one's status is derived from misdeeds of the predecessors.

JasonFruit 5y ago
No, one hundred times no. Just ask yourself the opposite: should a child be honored for the goodness of his parents, if he is a vicious criminal? It's obvious that he shouldn't. By what principle could we say that, but still hold children responsible for their parents' wrongdoing?

webreac 5y ago

There was a lot of mental manipulation to scapegoat the Jews for everything, to make them be seen as animals and not humans. I think reading this paper can help to better identify how the media tries to manipulate us.