7 ms·

For some, diligence against Covid-19 remains an expression of political identity

metalliqaz 5y ago
wait till they hear about how many die from the flu in a normal year
- throwawaymanbot 5y ago
  Wait till those that say this lazy line see how many more have died compared to a normal flu year. Get a grip!
hirundo 5y ago
> Hetherington found that the very liberal participants in his survey tended to be the most neurotic. I would expect that measurement to rise on both extremes. If you think that there is something very wrong with the status quo it is quite natural that you will be more stressed, have more anxiety, and tend to be more neurotic. Not that there aren't very stable, serene, salt of the earth types on all sides, just that the worriers will be more common the further their preferred reality diverges from the actual one.
- snicker7 5y ago
  Or the causality might be reversed. Neuroticism may attract people to extreme ideologies.
CountDrewku 5y ago
This mentality is just foreign to me. If you're that scared stay locked down, no one is forcing you to go out. There's a weird authoritarianism to wanting to control other people from going back to regular life.
- mindslight 5y ago
  The biggest battle is public schools, which are about as intrinsically authoritarian as can be. When schools reopen, then barring drastic measures (which by definition most people won't take), people are forced to send their kids back.
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    There's no data backing large spread of covid due to schools being open, in the data says it's the opposite. k-12 students are also less likely to get it and less likely to develop any complications from it. Additionally, there are several issues with leaving kids at home and in many cases it causes more problems than sending them back. Lastly, they are not "forced" to send their kids back, they have alternatives. Admittedly, the alternatives may require a difficult life change (homeschool, private, moving etc.) but if they're already making the decision that it's better their kids stay home then they should be making some sacrifices to ensure they're receiving appropriate education. I can tell you they are not receiving a good education through online classes, or at least drastically worse than in person. Average kids k-12 age lack the ability to motivate themselves when left alone at home and there's data backing this up. It's also bad for their mental health.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
slumdev 5y ago
I have long suspected that masking is a political identity symbol, especially when it's seen so frequently in situations where it doesn't make sense: Driving alone in one's car, walking in an area where one wouldn't encounter others, while swimming [1], etc. 1. https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1382601023441793026 https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1382601023441793026
- pogorniy 5y ago
  Same as unmasking
  - CountDrewku 5y ago
    That's hard to claim since being without a mask is normal. Anecdotally, I don't see videos of unmasked people berating masked individuals about they're disgusting evil people.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - shoemakersteve 5y ago
      Then you're not looking very hard. I've seen plenty.
    - reaktivo 5y ago
      I agree with the first part of your point, but anecdotally and from personal experience I’ve twice been berated for wearing a mask out in the open (this was in the Netherlands). Wearing the mask in open spaces is not even something I often do, but it was clear that it does carry political meaning on both ends of the spectrum, specially considering that the first of those two times, I was also asked to go back to the country I’m from.
    - totesraunch 5y ago
      Tucker Carlson went on an insane tirade two days ago telling his viewers to start harassing masked people--including calling CPS and the police for 'child abuse' of masked children.. It'll happen soon enough if it already isn't.
underseacables 5y ago
I think there is a subset of people who need to feel that something else is fully in control of their lives, be it government, health standards, or whatever. It’s almost like they want to give up independence and self-governing to something greater.
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  Is this not different than religion? There's certainly comfort in placing your life in someone else's hands. It takes that pressure away and you can just throw your hands in the air exclaiming you can't do a thing about it. I understand the allure... but what really bothers me is that those same people try to to the force their cultish/religious behaviors onto everyone else.
  - no-dr-onboard 5y ago
    You're totally right. This mentality is religious.
  - grillvogel 5y ago
    as the world gets more secular, this is the inevitable result. the basic human need for these things doesnt go away, and it just manifests in strange new ways
- silicon2401 5y ago
  I believe that many people _do_ want to give up independence and self-governing because it also means eschewing responsibility and accountability. It's easier to always throw blame on something else and demand someone else to fix it, than to accept that we all have our own flaws and weaknesses and that we often have to work to get where we want to.
virmundi 5y ago
They will be forced out when the government cuts off the pandemic checks. Fortunately that will never happen. There is always another pandemic around the corner.
- lashloch 5y ago
  Both recent administrations patted themselves on the back for the stimulus checks, which were smaller and arrived later than they should have. I don't think you have to worry about people depending on them long-term. And even if they did, so what? And I dunno what your last sentence is supposed to be if not a vague gesture at some conspiracy theory. Yeah, another pandemic might happen in the future. Do you have actual evidence that shows the US government is purposefully facilitating that?
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27038051 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27038051. Edit: between this and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27038206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27038206 and the rest of your recent account history, it's clear that you're using the site primarily for political/ideological battle. That's not allowed here, regardless of what politics/ideology you're battling for, because it destroys this place for its intended use. I've therefore banned the account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
virmundi 5y ago
Dang! You can’t let this post stand. It goes counter to the true narrative.
virmundi 5y ago
You’re correct. As religion falls, politics steps in to fill the void. Fortunately in the US we will, after court packing and making DC a state, be in the benevolent hands of the Democrats. All hail our new loving, yet still bombing brown people, overlords.
- twmiller 5y ago
  I dunno...after four years of Trump, this sort of nod towards both-sides-ism rings hollow to me these days. :/
  - virmundi 5y ago
    It is both sides. The right is falling out of religion too. They just don’t realize it. How can you believe in Jesus and vote Trump? The best I got was, “lesser of two evils”. What they fail to remember is that they are called out of this world. The politics here don’t matter.
- dang 5y ago
  We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27038073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27038073.
virmundi 5y ago
It’s not a conspiracy theory. We’re already seeing the groundwork laid for a vaccine pandemic passport. We’re seeing that we will all be required to get yearly boosters for Covid vaccine. We’re seeing more people push for greater power to impose lockdowns at the drop of a hat during the next pandemic. Vice Admiral Faucci said we’re never going back to normal. The powers that be have ordained a perpetual state of control for a disease that is manageable given a vitamin pack.
- whydoibother 5y ago
  It's not a conspiracy theory! proceeds to describe elements of a conspiracy and theorize the intent
mikewarot 5y ago
Imagine if only 60% of the population were willing to get the Polio vaccine in the 1950s? We'd have iron lungs everywhere, and never be rid of that scourge. Yet here we sit, in the 21st century, with 40% of the population dead set on letting Covid mutate in their bodies and thus work its way around the vaccine. We're never going back to normal at this rate because of those who aren't doing their duty and getting the vaccine.
- ceod 5y ago
  Equating polio and covid is ridiculous. Also its amazing you trust the efficacy and safety of vaccines made with such haste. The number of armchair virulogists that spawned in the last year makes my head spin. Folks who didn't know the difference between a virus and a bacteria are now pushing covid vaccine wokeness while a big bunch of them still think that hepatitis B is a bloody vitamin. Good luck mate.
- dham 5y ago
  If Covid were Polio then we would have 140% of people getting the vaccine. Some people would get 5 shots. But Covid isn't' Polio. It mostly effects older fat people. Yes anyone can die, but that's with any virus.
- epakai 5y ago
  Duty is a bit strong. I think maximizing vaccination is the best course for our situation, but it is still an optional individual action that each person has to weigh and decide themselves. Unfortunately the table has been set, and it looks like enough people have been swayed not to attend.
electriccello 5y ago
Counter to a lot of the sentiment in this thread, I think it's pretty obvious that a different set of ethical beliefs would result in advocating for a totally different set of policies and that's how it should be. If even a single covid death is unacceptable to you (something I've heard expressed by a couple folks on the far left), then it's pretty obvious that advocating for continued caution is the right answer. That said, obviously economic distress, depression and other factors are taking years off of people's lives too, any reasonable viewpoint must accept some level of tradeoff here.
- geoduck14 5y ago
  One factoid that was shared with me at the beginning of this mess is: Humans are REALLY bad at responding to highly unlikely events. We see this in the pandemic: Someone MIGHT die -> respond out of fear I will CERTAINLY not die -> push for "freedom" We saw this with past calamities: twin towers -> hunt down the terrorists Great Recession (and Great Depression). Even personal trauma has an impact (personal job loss or a friend with cancer). I, personally, advocate for COMPASSION as I see people on both sides of the pandemic get buffeted back and forth by their emotions. Acknowledge that they are in a hard spot; they are gripped by fear, guilt, loneliness. People from every background are getting ripped up because of the uncertainty of how to respond to the pandemic. So I ask all of HN: The next time you see someone with a "crazy" opinion of the pandemic, be patient and show them love. Their life is probably hard enough, and they might need a friend.
  - silicon2401 5y ago
    > I, personally, advocate for COMPASSION Sadly this is getting rarer every day. Nobody wants to show anybody else compassion, and people of every background are guilty of this.
hackeraccount 5y ago
I tend to agree with the down thread sentiment that to some greater or lesser degree both masking and non-masking are political sentiments as much as anything. What I wonder about is how that came to be - and how that outcome can be avoided in the future. I can see why this happens if there's a policy that helps some and hurts others to greater and lesser degrees; so people might support or oppose it. Other policies have a snowball like quality about them - where once some amount of support or opposition arises they attract more of the same because of coalition logic. I support X and Z because I care about them. I support Y because the supporters and Y also care about X and Z. The first case is reasonable enough but the second one is toxic; not just because people will go against their interests (not in the sense of things that are good for them but things that they do not support) but because no one will ever admit to others and generally not to themselves about just why they support a policy.
- jjgreen 5y ago
  Something of a misframing here? The issue is not masking/non-masking but mandatory masking or not (I don't believe I've ever heard of advocates for banning masking by those so inclined). And I don't see how person A telling person B what they must wear can be anything but political, see North Korea's "permitted haircuts for men" for example.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- mindslight 5y ago
  Wearing a mask is a common sense mitigation for respiratory diseases. The politicization occurred due to political hacks capitalizing on the burden of changing conditions/consensus to preach a message of conspiracy and irresponsibility. Freedom relies on distributed intelligence and responsibility. Without that, we either get authoritarianism or a failed society. Politically, I want to live in a society without mask mandates because everybody wears one in their own self interest. Apparently we need a lot more critical thinking to be at that point, and so authoritarianism steps in. Furthermore, a lot of the authoritarianism hasn't been actual mandates - for instance, there have been no "lockdowns" apart from CA early on. The same lack of critical thinking causes people to perceive government recommendations as mandatory, ultimately resolving the ambiguity in a productive manner.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
CountDrewku 5y ago
Imagine flagging this and just proving the point of the article.

wait till they hear about how many die from the flu in a normal year

throwawaymanbot 5y ago
Wait till those that say this lazy line see how many more have died compared to a normal flu year. Get a grip!

> Hetherington found that the very liberal participants in his survey tended to be the most neurotic. I would expect that measurement to rise on both extremes. If you think that there is something very wrong with the status quo it is quite natural that you will be more stressed, have more anxiety, and tend to be more neurotic. Not that there aren't very stable, serene, salt of the earth types on all sides, just that the worriers will be more common the further their preferred reality diverges from the actual one.

snicker7 5y ago
Or the causality might be reversed. Neuroticism may attract people to extreme ideologies.

CountDrewku 5y ago

This mentality is just foreign to me. If you're that scared stay locked down, no one is forcing you to go out. There's a weird authoritarianism to wanting to control other people from going back to regular life.

mindslight 5y ago
The biggest battle is public schools, which are about as intrinsically authoritarian as can be. When schools reopen, then barring drastic measures (which by definition most people won't take), people are forced to send their kids back.
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  There's no data backing large spread of covid due to schools being open, in the data says it's the opposite. k-12 students are also less likely to get it and less likely to develop any complications from it. Additionally, there are several issues with leaving kids at home and in many cases it causes more problems than sending them back. Lastly, they are not "forced" to send their kids back, they have alternatives. Admittedly, the alternatives may require a difficult life change (homeschool, private, moving etc.) but if they're already making the decision that it's better their kids stay home then they should be making some sacrifices to ensure they're receiving appropriate education. I can tell you they are not receiving a good education through online classes, or at least drastically worse than in person. Average kids k-12 age lack the ability to motivate themselves when left alone at home and there's data backing this up. It's also bad for their mental health.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

slumdev 5y ago

I have long suspected that masking is a political identity symbol, especially when it's seen so frequently in situations where it doesn't make sense: Driving alone in one's car, walking in an area where one wouldn't encounter others, while swimming [1], etc. 1. https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1382601023441793026 https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1382601023441793026

pogorniy 5y ago
Same as unmasking
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  That's hard to claim since being without a mask is normal. Anecdotally, I don't see videos of unmasked people berating masked individuals about they're disgusting evil people.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - shoemakersteve 5y ago
    Then you're not looking very hard. I've seen plenty.
  - reaktivo 5y ago
    I agree with the first part of your point, but anecdotally and from personal experience I’ve twice been berated for wearing a mask out in the open (this was in the Netherlands). Wearing the mask in open spaces is not even something I often do, but it was clear that it does carry political meaning on both ends of the spectrum, specially considering that the first of those two times, I was also asked to go back to the country I’m from.
  - totesraunch 5y ago
    Tucker Carlson went on an insane tirade two days ago telling his viewers to start harassing masked people--including calling CPS and the police for 'child abuse' of masked children.. It'll happen soon enough if it already isn't.

underseacables 5y ago

I think there is a subset of people who need to feel that something else is fully in control of their lives, be it government, health standards, or whatever. It’s almost like they want to give up independence and self-governing to something greater.

CountDrewku 5y ago
Is this not different than religion? There's certainly comfort in placing your life in someone else's hands. It takes that pressure away and you can just throw your hands in the air exclaiming you can't do a thing about it. I understand the allure... but what really bothers me is that those same people try to to the force their cultish/religious behaviors onto everyone else.
- no-dr-onboard 5y ago
  You're totally right. This mentality is religious.
- grillvogel 5y ago
  as the world gets more secular, this is the inevitable result. the basic human need for these things doesnt go away, and it just manifests in strange new ways
silicon2401 5y ago
I believe that many people _do_ want to give up independence and self-governing because it also means eschewing responsibility and accountability. It's easier to always throw blame on something else and demand someone else to fix it, than to accept that we all have our own flaws and weaknesses and that we often have to work to get where we want to.

virmundi 5y ago

They will be forced out when the government cuts off the pandemic checks. Fortunately that will never happen. There is always another pandemic around the corner.

lashloch 5y ago
Both recent administrations patted themselves on the back for the stimulus checks, which were smaller and arrived later than they should have. I don't think you have to worry about people depending on them long-term. And even if they did, so what? And I dunno what your last sentence is supposed to be if not a vague gesture at some conspiracy theory. Yeah, another pandemic might happen in the future. Do you have actual evidence that shows the US government is purposefully facilitating that?
dang 5y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27038051 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27038051. Edit: between this and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27038206 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27038206 and the rest of your recent account history, it's clear that you're using the site primarily for political/ideological battle. That's not allowed here, regardless of what politics/ideology you're battling for, because it destroys this place for its intended use. I've therefore banned the account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

virmundi 5y ago

Dang! You can’t let this post stand. It goes counter to the true narrative.

virmundi 5y ago

You’re correct. As religion falls, politics steps in to fill the void. Fortunately in the US we will, after court packing and making DC a state, be in the benevolent hands of the Democrats. All hail our new loving, yet still bombing brown people, overlords.

twmiller 5y ago
I dunno...after four years of Trump, this sort of nod towards both-sides-ism rings hollow to me these days. :/
- virmundi 5y ago
  It is both sides. The right is falling out of religion too. They just don’t realize it. How can you believe in Jesus and vote Trump? The best I got was, “lesser of two evils”. What they fail to remember is that they are called out of this world. The politics here don’t matter.
dang 5y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27038073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27038073.

virmundi 5y ago

It’s not a conspiracy theory. We’re already seeing the groundwork laid for a vaccine pandemic passport. We’re seeing that we will all be required to get yearly boosters for Covid vaccine. We’re seeing more people push for greater power to impose lockdowns at the drop of a hat during the next pandemic. Vice Admiral Faucci said we’re never going back to normal. The powers that be have ordained a perpetual state of control for a disease that is manageable given a vitamin pack.

whydoibother 5y ago
It's not a conspiracy theory! proceeds to describe elements of a conspiracy and theorize the intent

mikewarot 5y ago

Imagine if only 60% of the population were willing to get the Polio vaccine in the 1950s? We'd have iron lungs everywhere, and never be rid of that scourge. Yet here we sit, in the 21st century, with 40% of the population dead set on letting Covid mutate in their bodies and thus work its way around the vaccine. We're never going back to normal at this rate because of those who aren't doing their duty and getting the vaccine.

ceod 5y ago
Equating polio and covid is ridiculous. Also its amazing you trust the efficacy and safety of vaccines made with such haste. The number of armchair virulogists that spawned in the last year makes my head spin. Folks who didn't know the difference between a virus and a bacteria are now pushing covid vaccine wokeness while a big bunch of them still think that hepatitis B is a bloody vitamin. Good luck mate.
dham 5y ago
If Covid were Polio then we would have 140% of people getting the vaccine. Some people would get 5 shots. But Covid isn't' Polio. It mostly effects older fat people. Yes anyone can die, but that's with any virus.
epakai 5y ago
Duty is a bit strong. I think maximizing vaccination is the best course for our situation, but it is still an optional individual action that each person has to weigh and decide themselves. Unfortunately the table has been set, and it looks like enough people have been swayed not to attend.

electriccello 5y ago

Counter to a lot of the sentiment in this thread, I think it's pretty obvious that a different set of ethical beliefs would result in advocating for a totally different set of policies and that's how it should be. If even a single covid death is unacceptable to you (something I've heard expressed by a couple folks on the far left), then it's pretty obvious that advocating for continued caution is the right answer. That said, obviously economic distress, depression and other factors are taking years off of people's lives too, any reasonable viewpoint must accept some level of tradeoff here.

geoduck14 5y ago
One factoid that was shared with me at the beginning of this mess is: Humans are REALLY bad at responding to highly unlikely events. We see this in the pandemic: Someone MIGHT die -> respond out of fear I will CERTAINLY not die -> push for "freedom" We saw this with past calamities: twin towers -> hunt down the terrorists Great Recession (and Great Depression). Even personal trauma has an impact (personal job loss or a friend with cancer). I, personally, advocate for COMPASSION as I see people on both sides of the pandemic get buffeted back and forth by their emotions. Acknowledge that they are in a hard spot; they are gripped by fear, guilt, loneliness. People from every background are getting ripped up because of the uncertainty of how to respond to the pandemic. So I ask all of HN: The next time you see someone with a "crazy" opinion of the pandemic, be patient and show them love. Their life is probably hard enough, and they might need a friend.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  > I, personally, advocate for COMPASSION Sadly this is getting rarer every day. Nobody wants to show anybody else compassion, and people of every background are guilty of this.

hackeraccount 5y ago

I tend to agree with the down thread sentiment that to some greater or lesser degree both masking and non-masking are political sentiments as much as anything. What I wonder about is how that came to be - and how that outcome can be avoided in the future. I can see why this happens if there's a policy that helps some and hurts others to greater and lesser degrees; so people might support or oppose it. Other policies have a snowball like quality about them - where once some amount of support or opposition arises they attract more of the same because of coalition logic. I support X and Z because I care about them. I support Y because the supporters and Y also care about X and Z. The first case is reasonable enough but the second one is toxic; not just because people will go against their interests (not in the sense of things that are good for them but things that they do not support) but because no one will ever admit to others and generally not to themselves about just why they support a policy.

jjgreen 5y ago
Something of a misframing here? The issue is not masking/non-masking but mandatory masking or not (I don't believe I've ever heard of advocates for banning masking by those so inclined). And I don't see how person A telling person B what they must wear can be anything but political, see North Korea's "permitted haircuts for men" for example.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
mindslight 5y ago
Wearing a mask is a common sense mitigation for respiratory diseases. The politicization occurred due to political hacks capitalizing on the burden of changing conditions/consensus to preach a message of conspiracy and irresponsibility. Freedom relies on distributed intelligence and responsibility. Without that, we either get authoritarianism or a failed society. Politically, I want to live in a society without mask mandates because everybody wears one in their own self interest. Apparently we need a lot more critical thinking to be at that point, and so authoritarianism steps in. Furthermore, a lot of the authoritarianism hasn't been actual mandates - for instance, there have been no "lockdowns" apart from CA early on. The same lack of critical thinking causes people to perceive government recommendations as mandatory, ultimately resolving the ambiguity in a productive manner.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

CountDrewku 5y ago

Imagine flagging this and just proving the point of the article.