9 ms·
Inferior endurance is the "dirty secret" of the consumer-level SSD industry. You and I know better, but the average consumer doesn't pay attention to write end
by rkagerer 6y ago
Inferior endurance is the "dirty secret" of the consumer-level SSD industry. You and I know better, but the average consumer doesn't pay attention to write endurance or under-provisioning.
While I'm no proponent of storage mining, I do feel a little empathy. First they sell products that don't stand up as well to wear, then they wash their hands of it when you actually want to use the thing. Feels a bit like when stainless steel appliances gave way to plastic ones.
That's why I stopped buying entry-level, and prefer enterprise SSD's or at least good brands that publish endurance figures and have held up to third-party testing proving them out.
Here are some fun experiments writing to SSD's for days/months/years on end to see how long they'd last:
[1] https://techreport.com/review/27909/the-ssd-endurance-experiment-theyre-all-dead/ https://techreport.com/review/27909/the-ssd-endurance-experi...
[2] https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/9rl1lp19?p=9#r179 https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/9rl1lp19?p=9#r179
[3] http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?271063-SSD-Write-Endurance-25nm-Vs-34nm&p=5236109&viewfull=1#post5236109 http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?271063-SS...
I have no problem with a manufacturer publishing a lifetime write rating and denying the warranty once you've exceeded it. But unless they were up-front about it, amending the terms afterward by saying "well, we never intended you to use it like that" seems a cop-out.
- mrtksn 6y agoConsumer 100Mbps internet will also not match datacenter 100Mbps internet. Consumer coffee maker wont match industrial coffee maker when you try to make coffee continuously, it will overheat the sensor area and start making bad coffee and eventually fail much sooner than the industrial one. It all comes to the use case scenarios. It's not really a dirty secret but cost issue where you can pay up more for robustness and buy the industrial use one if the consumer grade stuff doesn't fit your needs. On 99.99% of its users it's fine, almost everyone is happy with a consumer SSD.
- roflc0ptic 6y agoI’m down with a consumer coffee maker not working as well as an industrial coffee maker, but 100Mbps is a well defined thing, and I don’t understand how it isn’t criminal that my internet speeds never even approach the advertised rates. This isn’t an issue of my “use case” not requiring honesty, this is an issue of me paying for something and simply not getting it.
- tjoff 6y agoI've never heard or experienced anyone not getting their advertised speed (apart from DSL that varied depending on quality of the cables etc. or wireless services). There are indeed laws that guarantee that, depending on where you live. But you can't really expect to max out 100/100 24/7 all year long on a consumer pipe. It is overprovisioned and assumes that most won't be utilizing theoretical maximum all the time. Just as the coffee maker.
- mrtksn 6y agoIt's not only about the bandwidth but other factors like latency between regions etc. Also, the prices given for consumers assume that they are not going to max out the bandwidth all the time, so the ISP having 1000Gbps line to the rest of the internet can sell it to 1000 customers, giving them each a 10Mbps. It will work fine up until a lot of them are watching Netflix at the same time or torrenting. The moment you have guarantees on the speed, your prices and speeds are adjusted to make it feasible(the same hypothetical ISP can have 2 customers at 100Mbps, 30 at 10Mbps and 500 at 1Mbps with guaranteed speeds and vastly different prices). In many places you can definitely pay a lot of money and have a connection that is not pooled with your neighbour. It's the same difference as with the shared hosting and a dedicated machine hosting.
- matheusmoreira 6y ago> the prices given for consumers assume that they are not going to max out the bandwidth all the time Consumers should be free to violate any and all assumptions with no negative consequences. Especially unstated ones that only people familiar with their business model would know about. If an ISP advertises 1 gigabit/second internet, consumers should be able to fill that pipe with 1 gigabit of data every second. In practice only a minority is going to do that but it should be possible with no punitive throttling of bandwidth whatsoever.
- shawnz 6y agoRight, if they think customers need less then they can just advertise less. They shouldn't get the benefit of advertising a big number while providing a small number just because most customers can't tell. That will make it impossible to fairly compare them with their competitors.
- znpy 6y agoThis. We had a consumer-grade coffee machine at the office once, along with free coffee capsules for the employees. Whereas in somebody's home that machine would have made 4-5 cups of coffee a day, that machine was making in the order of hundreds a day. Of course it broke quite often. But having worked at a restaurant as a waiter in my youth, I can tell: industrial (even entry-level) professional dish-, washer are on another league, completely different. If anything, for having the dishes done in 40 seconds (!)
- yourapostasy 6y ago> ...for having the dishes done in 40 seconds (!) While my next home dishwasher will be an industrial / commercial-grade dishwasher after one too many services calls for a supposedly premium residential make (Bosch, and I've heard rumblings Miele fares no better), I also have to acknowledge there are trade-offs. 1. I need to supply higher voltage and amperage than most homes plumb for dishwashers. Fortunately not three-phase for the smaller units I'm looking at. 2. I cannot put my more delicate dishware into them, and hand wash them. 3. While there is more energy and water use, I'm okay with that. That marginal inefficiency is more than made up for by keeping a residential dishwasher from entering the landfill in just a few years. Under residential use, I can reasonably expect to run it until parts run out, which for the better brands like Hobart, does not appear to happen for decades. 4. While I have to use detergents that are not available at the grocery store, I'm okay with that. I sometimes wish there were open source reference blueprints for the big ticket household appliances built around a design dimension that will not change for the foreseeable future: human planiform scale. And manufacturers plug into that frame so the basic core like the tub of a laundry machine or dishwasher doesn't change common mounting points and dimensions while everything around it changes and swaps Ship of Theseus-style over the decades, radically reducing the footprint of these machines entering the waste stream. What I'm really wishing for is more cradle-to-cradle design however, and I should leave the actual implementation to the domain experts.
- formerly_proven 6y agoThere's actually not a lot of parts in a dishwasher, I'm curious what gave you trouble with your unit.
- Nitramp 6y agoI don't follow, I think? The tests that you link to suggest that SSDs meet and exceed their manufacturer's durability claims as measures in petabytes written. The problem appears to be that manufacturers want to translate that number into something consumers understand, and farmers now want to take them up on that for their industrial use of the devices. Manufacturers use "lasts for 10 years" as the label for consumers. Which seems entirely reasonable - the disks really will last for 10 years in typical usage, and this phrasing seems useful for consumers. Now we could fix by either requiring that any warranty standard must hold under any imaginable usage scenario, or manufacturers could resort to a somewhat squishy "reasonable use". I think the "any use case" requirement is not practical, and we have a long history of "reasonable use" being used, eg for cars.
- rhn_mk1 6y agoThe problem here IMO is that "reasonable use" is a loophole that can be used to justify anything, or at least it doesn't tell the customer how to use the device before expecting trouble. If the limitation was also expressed in objective, preferably quantitative terms, it would be clear. Internet conections usually have that: 1Tb transfer at 100Mb/s speed, then 64kb/s. 50% of the time, the speed may be limited by congestion, etc.
- Nitramp 6y agoI think they reference a "standard daily use"? But even if that's not strictly quantified, I think the manufacturer position is justifiable, in particular when advertising to consumers.
- a1369209993 6y agoIt's perfectly fine if they want to claim: > Lasts for 10 years!* > * Based on a total lifetime of X PB and typical usage of Y GB/month. But if they claim "Lasts for 10 years.", then their implied warrantee is "Lasts for 10 years.".
- matkoniecz 6y ago
- formerly_proven 6y ago> Inferior endurance is the "dirty secret" of the consumer-level SSD industry. You and I know better, but the average consumer doesn't pay attention to write endurance or under-provisioning. Besides Sandforce SSDs I've never have had any SSD fail, including cheap SSDs with 300+ drive writes, which is an insane workload for anything consumer (in my case, being used as a scratch disk) -- you are literally writing dozens of terabytes to an SSD that only holds twohundred GB or so. None of my normal-use SSDs approach any amount of wear like this, and despite some being used daily for almost ten years, they generally have less than 50 drive writes. So I really don't see why any FUD is warranted here.
- vetinari 6y agoI did, it was Intel 330. It was in a machine running Ubuntu and manifested in such a way, that during kernel update (linux-headers, i.e. writing lot of small files, to be more specific) it just gave up and became unresponsive until power cycle. It still did work during normal, user usage when the demand on it was light.
- formerly_proven 6y agoFWIW I observed similar behaviors, but it was caused by the file system (btrfs), not the underlying storage.
- pupdogg 6y agoWould Samsung 970 EVO Plus NVMe drive be considered consumer grade or enterprise? Also, are NVMe drives susceptible to faster degradation due to higher throughput?
- Macha 6y ago> Would Samsung 970 EVO Plus NVMe drive be considered consumer grade or enterprise? This is a consumer SSD, by Samsung's own classification: https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/minisite/ssd/product/consumer/970evoplus/ https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/minisite/ssd/product/c.... The 970 Pro goes into prosumer territory. The DCT range are their enterprise drives: https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/minisite/ssd/product/data-center/overview/ https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/minisite/ssd/product/d... > Also, are NVMe drives susceptible to faster degradation due to higher throughput Only if you use the time saved to write more data than you would have with a slower drive. e.g. for 1TB both the 970 evo (nvme) and 870 evo (sata) are covered by warranty for 600 TBW. The 883 DCT on the other hand offers 0.8 DWPD for 5 years or drive writes per day. So 5 * 365 * 0.8 = 1460TBW, or about 2.45x the consumer drive
- scaladev 6y ago>Only if you use the time saved to write more data than you would have with a slower drive Well, NVMe SSDs do get quite hot due to much higher data transfer speeds, and higher temperatures lead to faster flash memory degradation, although I have no idea how important it is in practice (probably on the order of an SSD dying in 10 years instead of 20)
- wtallis 6y agoConsumer NVMe SSDs only get to those higher temperatures if you're writing a lot more data than a SATA SSD or hard drive could handle. And such higher temperatures might at a stretch have a meaningful impact on the data retention time for data currently stored in the SSD, but won't meaningfully shorten the program/erase cycle count.
- 6y ago
- ClumsyPilot 6y agoIt's funny that people here are talking about mining as a morally wrong activity, earning income from wasting resources as if it is somehow unique. The whole mining waste pales in comparison with what financialization of real estate and other markets has done to our economy.
- fomine3 6y agoIt was truly problem in early SSDs, but now normal consumers never exceed rated TBW since 3D NAND is used.
- throw0101a 6y ago> First they sell products that don't stand up as well to wear They stand up to the wear of a certain duty cycle. If you have a heavier duty cycle buy a product designed for it (which will probably cost more). There's a reason why Toyota's Corolla sedan (or even their Supra) costs less than their race car that won the 24 Hours of Le Mans. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TS050_Hybrid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TS050_Hybrid
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- rasz 6y agoBad analogy. In case of Toyota sport cars its the refinement you are paying for. There wont be much endurance difference between LFA vs RC, and especially against 20 year old tuned Supra mk4. Toyota had a bad habit of making bulletproof engines like 2jz or 1UZ-FE.
- dpweb 6y agoPretty easily solved imo by ending the warranty on the rated TB written (they all have ratings for this and they vary wildly - faster drives can have 1/10th the endurance of others) - in addition to the time limit. I do have a problem with someone selling me a product and then telling me what I can and can't do with it.
- maxerickson 6y agoI would think there is a write limit in the warranty. If that is the case, it's more a question of whether the advertised lifetimes are dishonest marketing or not. I guess most people shopping the warranty would understand "years or write limit" well enough. I would say they aren't telling you what you can do with it, they are just telling you what uses they will cover under warranty. In this case, it's likely that a legal requirement to cover the drives under warranty for this use would cause the price to go up or the product to be pulled.
- imtringued 6y ago>Inferior endurance is the "dirty secret" of the consumer-level SSD industry. You and I know better, but the average consumer doesn't pay attention to write endurance or under-provisioning. The hope is that capacity increases outrun the loss in endurance by changing the way the SSD is used. If you have a large capacity SSD the assumption is that you often just write a large file onto it once and it stays there for a long time, resulting in a net gain in endurance. If you had the opposite, like an SSD cache integrated into an HDD where the cache is being overwritten all the time you run into a problem and your best choice would be to use a smaller capacity SLC SSD with more endurance.
- lordlimecat 6y agoIt's not really a secret. If you get a consumer KitchenAid mixer and use it for baking in an industrial kitchen, KitchenAid is probably going to reject your warranty when you send it in for a burned out motor after 6 months. Warranties cover defects, not wear and tear far beyond the advertised workload.
- rasz 6y agoYou might want to revisit Magnusson Moss act. No such thing as 'advertised workload'.
- lordlimecat 6y agoIf advertised duty cycles aren't a thing, then every SSD, printer, and paper shredder is breaking the law. I'm not aware of anything in magnusson moss prohibiting you from indicating a devices designed workload-- whether it's pages shredded per minute, pages printed a month, or TBW / DWPD. It is well known that flash has a limited lifespan and no court is going to rule that burning through those cell writes with a commercial workload somehow entitles you to coverage under an implied warranty.